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Old
10-21-2006, 02:45 PM
  #51
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Jester, this off-season when you and I had our first, but certainly not last, Gagne-related argument, you repeatedly compared him to Gomez and Briere and their contracts. Let's take a look:

Briere: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points +3
Gomez: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points, +1

I'll give ya the fact that Buffalo is a freakin' machine right now, but as of today they are both beyond PPG players which is why today, like two months ago, I didn't think the comparison was just. For the record, no one will be happier than I if Gagne scores more than 50 this year.

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10-21-2006, 02:52 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Jester, this off-season when you and I had our first, but certainly not last, Gagne-related argument, you repeatedly compared him to Gomez and Briere and their contracts. Let's take a look:

Briere: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points +3
Gomez: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points, +1

I'll give ya the fact that Buffalo is a freakin' machine right now, but as of today they are both beyond PPG players which is why today, like two months ago, I didn't think the comparison was just. For the record, no one will be happier than I if Gagne scores more than 50 this year.
7 games dude... you've got to be kidding me. not to mention the fact that both our assist playes, not goal scorers (harder to find guys that bury the puck). Gagne has a better resume than Briere, to boot... and Briere is 5 years older than Gagne.

Gomez and Gagne are extremely comparable throughout their career... and Gomez can never be argued to be anything but a mediocre defensive player at best.

think what you want dude... 51 goal pace is 51 goal pace... something neither of those players are going to produce. assists are meaningful of something, but it's pretty easy to pick up crap assists...

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10-21-2006, 03:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
7 games dude... you've got to be kidding me. not to mention the fact that both our assist playes, not goal scorers (harder to find guys that bury the puck). Gagne has a better resume than Briere, to boot... and Briere is 5 years older than Gagne.

Gomez and Gagne are extremely comparable throughout their career... and Gomez can never be argued to be anything but a mediocre defensive player at best.

think what you want dude... 51 goal pace is 51 goal pace... something neither of those players are going to produce. assists are meaningful of something, but it's pretty easy to pick up crap assists...
As a woman who is probably old enough to be your mother, feel free to stop referring to me as "dude" fifty times per post.

For the record, I did not make the original Briere/Gomez/Gagne comparison you did. But while we're on it, using your "on pace" mentality, I'm no mathematician, but doesn't that put both Gomez and Briere "on pace" for 114 pts this season? Man, I'm glad I'm not voting for the Hart this year. Oh, and tell Gretzky about "crap assists."

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10-21-2006, 03:04 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Jester, this off-season when you and I had our first, but certainly not last, Gagne-related argument, you repeatedly compared him to Gomez and Briere and their contracts. Let's take a look:

Briere: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points +3
Gomez: 7 games, 2 Goals, 8 Assists, 10 points, +1

I'll give ya the fact that Buffalo is a freakin' machine right now, but as of today they are both beyond PPG players which is why today, like two months ago, I didn't think the comparison was just. For the record, no one will be happier than I if Gagne scores more than 50 this year.
Doesn't this thwart your point? We are talking about scoring goals right? Gagne has already scored 5 goals and is on pace for 51 goals this season. 5 > 2. I thought that was enough in this league to be considered a pretty good player.

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10-21-2006, 03:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sansan View Post
Doesn't this thwart your point? We are talking about scoring goals right? Gagne has already scored 5 goals and is on pace for 51 goals this season. 5 > 2. I thought that was enough in this league to be considered a pretty good player.
"Pretty good players" don't make $5.25 mill (or should I say shouldnt' make) that is my point.

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10-21-2006, 04:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
"Pretty good players" don't make $5.25 mill (or should I say shouldnt' make) that is my point.
pretty good players score 25 goals in this league.

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10-21-2006, 05:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
"Pretty good players" don't make $5.25 mill (or should I say shouldnt' make) that is my point.
Goal scorers who are paid $5.25 million should score 40+ goals. Gagne is on a pace far better than that.

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10-22-2006, 12:24 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I am going to respond to two posts at once here, yours, and penguinonapole, since I feel the have to do with the same thing with Gagne. (yes I am lazy )

I 100% agree with people saying he doesnt create his own scoring chances by making moves, deking out dmen, etc. There is not a question there. Yeah, he will occasionally have one where he goes nuts but do did Darren McCarty in Detroit. My response to that is "Who gives a flying #$*(%*&%!!!!!!!!!!!"

What I think is escaping people's minds is that there are different types of goal scorers in the league 1) Garbage goal scorers like LeClair, Time Kerr,(in their primes) Mark Parrish, etc. where they plant themselves in front of the net, take some punishment and score on rebounds. 2) Guys like Bure, Jagr, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin who can take the puck up ice and score on their own. 3) Players like Gagne who know how to get themselves in the right spot to bury the opportunities when they come, and need to play with someone that can get them the puck.

Using the argument that Gagne does not create his own chances, or scores on wide open shots at the net would suggest that anyone could play in his spot and score 47 goals which is flat out bull. He still needs to know where to be on the ice and needs to bury those chances. Put Kapanen, Umberger, Calder, etc. on the line with Forsberg/Knuble and they may score half as much as Gagne.

How many wide open net goals did guys like Kurri, Messier, Glenn Anderson, Robitaille, etc get from passes from Gretzky??? Does that make them any less of players? How about Glenn Murray, BIll Guerin, Cam Neely, Brett Hull, Kevin Stevens, Rick Tocchet, etc. guys who scored much much more when they have a good playmaker with them. In general, none of these guys were known as players that created their own scoring chances.

Am I saying Gagne is as good as some of the players I mentioned? No of course not, but Gagne is a top player in this league, in my mind arguably the best when you get to the 2nd level stars in the league (outside of the elite players). He has proven that whenever he has an offensive role, with a playmaker, he will score. 33 with Recchi, 47 last year with Forsberg, 12 in 10 games with Zhamnov. The problem is that he wasnt used in that role for a long period of time until last year. If he was, and had scored 35-40 goals every year he has been in the league, I dont think there would be as many complaints.

This team has many many problems at the moment. The last thing we should be worried about is Gagne. He is a very, very good player, borderline elite but not quite there, he just happens to not play like Kovalchuk, Jagr, Ovechkin.

Well, I hate to break the news to you, but there have only been a handful of players in the history of the NHL that could consitently create their own scoring chances without the help of a playmaker. If you go back and look at all the great scores over the years, I am sure the majority of them were on a line with a great passer or playmaker.
There is a huge difference between wanting gagne to pass the puck or control the puck more than saying they he should be the next Jagr or bure. The funny thing is both bure and Jagr know how get open in the slot, and bury the puck. They just take advantage of the speed and skill they are capable of when they have the puck. Gagne is a better skater than brett hull, john leclair, and rick tocchet. I would also say Gagne has far better skill than those guys too. Certainly if Gagne is capable of using his speed and skill, he should use it. There is not an excuse. If Leclair or Hull had great speed, i am sure they would use it too. Great players use their skills to their opponents disadvantage. It's a shame to see that skillset go wasted for Gagne.

edit: Another thing id like to add. Is gagne used to be a center, and his assist total used to be equal to or higher than his goal total. He is capable of being alot better passer than his stats over the past year and half are showing.

Again I think you are making the wrong comparisons. I am not saying anyone can score those goals. Just that his Goal total does not fairly represent his offensive motivation. I am not arguing whether gagne can score 40 goals or not. I think he can. That does not change he looks unmotivated out there, and is not living up to his potential. The difference between Gagne and leclair/Hull, is Gagne can flat out skate, and has the skill to beat opponents one on one. Leclair never did. I am not happy having a Gagne who has the potential to create plays for himself, to rather sit and wait for goals instead. Please dont tell me Gagne is not that type of player. Gagne has the skills and the speed to do it. The question is whether he is motivated or not. I think Gagne can get just as many assists if not more, than Goals. The gagne right now will probally have something like 45 goals 25 assists, last year he had 47g, 32a. I know he is capable of being a better passer. If gagne would use his speed and skill to make plays he can score even more goals, and higher his assists. There is no doubt this would make him a better player offensive and get him more involved in the game when he is not being setup. Again, he is easily capable of doing this. The problem is motivation and confidence.


Last edited by penguinonapole: 10-22-2006 at 12:38 AM.
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10-22-2006, 07:29 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinonapole View Post
There is a huge difference between wanting gagne to pass the puck or control the puck more than saying they he should be the next Jagr or bure. The funny thing is both bure and Jagr know how get open in the slot, and bury the puck. They just take advantage of the speed and skill they are capable of when they have the puck. Gagne is a better skater than brett hull, john leclair, and rick tocchet. I would also say Gagne has far better skill than those guys too. Certainly if Gagne is capable of using his speed and skill, he should use it. There is not an excuse. If Leclair or Hull had great speed, i am sure they would use it too. Great players use their skills to their opponents disadvantage. It's a shame to see that skillset go wasted for Gagne.

edit: Another thing id like to add. Is gagne used to be a center, and his assist total used to be equal to or higher than his goal total. He is capable of being alot better passer than his stats over the past year and half are showing.

Again I think you are making the wrong comparisons. I am not saying anyone can score those goals. Just that his Goal total does not fairly represent his offensive motivation. I am not arguing whether gagne can score 40 goals or not. I think he can. That does not change he looks unmotivated out there, and is not living up to his potential. The difference between Gagne and leclair/Hull, is Gagne can flat out skate, and has the skill to beat opponents one on one. Leclair never did. I am not happy having a Gagne who has the potential to create plays for himself, to rather sit and wait for goals instead. Please dont tell me Gagne is not that type of player. Gagne has the skills and the speed to do it. The question is whether he is motivated or not. I think Gagne can get just as many assists if not more, than Goals. The gagne right now will probally have something like 45 goals 25 assists, last year he had 47g, 32a. I know he is capable of being a better passer. If gagne would use his speed and skill to make plays he can score even more goals, and higher his assists. There is no doubt this would make him a better player offensive and get him more involved in the game when he is not being setup. Again, he is easily capable of doing this. The problem is motivation and confidence.
Gagne is NOT a good one-on-one shake-and-bake player... he doesn't have the stick skills necessary to do it. it's nice to have speed, but a slower player can stay in front of a faster player defensively by good positioning and just maintaining the body in front of the net. You gotta have some special stuff to beat these guys one-on-one.... also, comparing him to guys like Bure and Jagr is a bit of a joke. Bure may have been the best pure goal scorer that we've seen in the last 15 years, it's sad injuries really killed him. however, he was also completely absent when defense was getting played and constantly looking for the pass up ice... Jagr, he's otherwordly.

5.25M isn't saying you're even in remotely the same class as those two... then there's Hull who had the BEST one-timer that has ever been in the sport of hockey. he was also uncanny at slipping into the perfect spot to receive the pass... he also didn't know where the defensive zone.

Leclair isn't even a remotely comparable player to Gagne... he scored a lot of goals with brute strength that Gagne is never going to score. it's a trade off. i'll also go out on a limb and suggest that Gagne will end his career with more goals than Leclair if he maintains himself as a top-line forward, which i think he will...

this expectation that Gagne is somehow slacking off and if he would "Just do more" he'd get a bunch more goals is ridiculous. he's on pace for 51 goals right now... last year he would have had 50 if not for injuries to himself and Forsberg... until we have an adequate replacement for Forsberg, that really stings the offensive output of the top line. you're saying that Gagne is a 70 goal player? 80 goal? news flash, he's not that good. however, he's 40+ good, which is pretty damn good.

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10-22-2006, 06:06 PM
  #60
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This is from Eklund's blog:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=3345

Today Gagne said to me that, "Hitch's system is very intense and complicated. It took me two years to feel comfortable. You are very afraid to make a mistake. Alot of it is about not wanting to give up the puck, so you are often nervous about that when you should be creative."

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10-22-2006, 06:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
This is from Eklund's blog:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=3345

Today Gagne said to me that, "Hitch's system is very intense and complicated. It took me two years to feel comfortable. You are very afraid to make a mistake. Alot of it is about not wanting to give up the puck, so you are often nervous about that when you should be creative."
Interesting.

It must be the military/history buff in him, he plans the game like you'd plan a war.

We've said all along that this team needs to get back to the basics and I think Hitch out of the picture will provide just that.

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10-22-2006, 06:13 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Interesting.

It must be the military/history buff in him, he plans the game like you'd plan a war.

We've said all along that this team needs to get back to the basics and I think Hitch out of the picture will provide just that.
Other interesting quotes from the blog. Knuble disagreed with Gagne. Forsberg said changes needed to be made. Richards' quote was, it seemed, somewhere in between those of Gagne and Knuble.


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 10-22-2006 at 06:54 PM.
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10-22-2006, 06:53 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by penguinonapole View Post
There is a huge difference between wanting gagne to pass the puck or control the puck more than saying they he should be the next Jagr or bure. The funny thing is both bure and Jagr know how get open in the slot, and bury the puck. They just take advantage of the speed and skill they are capable of when they have the puck. Gagne is a better skater than brett hull, john leclair, and rick tocchet. I would also say Gagne has far better skill than those guys too. Certainly if Gagne is capable of using his speed and skill, he should use it. There is not an excuse. If Leclair or Hull had great speed, i am sure they would use it too. Great players use their skills to their opponents disadvantage. It's a shame to see that skillset go wasted for Gagne.

edit: Another thing id like to add. Is gagne used to be a center, and his assist total used to be equal to or higher than his goal total. He is capable of being alot better passer than his stats over the past year and half are showing.

Again I think you are making the wrong comparisons. I am not saying anyone can score those goals. Just that his Goal total does not fairly represent his offensive motivation. I am not arguing whether gagne can score 40 goals or not. I think he can. That does not change he looks unmotivated out there, and is not living up to his potential. The difference between Gagne and leclair/Hull, is Gagne can flat out skate, and has the skill to beat opponents one on one. Leclair never did. I am not happy having a Gagne who has the potential to create plays for himself, to rather sit and wait for goals instead. Please dont tell me Gagne is not that type of player. Gagne has the skills and the speed to do it. The question is whether he is motivated or not. I think Gagne can get just as many assists if not more, than Goals. The gagne right now will probally have something like 45 goals 25 assists, last year he had 47g, 32a. I know he is capable of being a better passer. If gagne would use his speed and skill to make plays he can score even more goals, and higher his assists. There is no doubt this would make him a better player offensive and get him more involved in the game when he is not being setup. Again, he is easily capable of doing this. The problem is motivation and confidence.
So what is your point? That the 45+ goal scorer is not putting up enough assists or points? or That the 45+ goal scorer is not scoring 70+ because he is such a great skater and "should" be able to beat players one on one?

Gagne is not a one on one player, that is complete FACT! Jester already spoke about it so I am not going to get crazy into it but skating and speed is not all you need to beat a player! There are plenty of slower players in the league that could beat people with crazy puck skills. (Lemieux after all the back problems is an example) It is about puck handling skills and Gagne is NOT that type of player.

And I dont want to hear about assists in juniors. In youth leagues, through teenage years and juniors, the majority of the better players play center. There have been many, many players that were centers in juniors that became wingers in he NHL. Besides, assists are easier to come by then goals. I would bet that a lot of Gagne's assits in juniors came off shots that were tipped in, rebounds, etc.

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10-22-2006, 07:06 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Other interesting quotes from the blog. Knuble disagreed with Gagne. Forsberg said changes needed to be made. Richards' quote was, it seemed, somewhere in between those of Gagne and Knuble.
Knuble would disagree for two reasons:

1) He hasn't been playing for Hitch for nearly as long as Gags.
2) He isn't nearly as defensively responsible, nor is he required to be.

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10-23-2006, 02:10 PM
  #65
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he sucks. i was iffy about the contract in the first place, but he flat out sucks. he refuses to skate with the puck. he creates no oppurtunities, all he wants to do is stand there and take an open shot
wouldn't you? he got his money now he wants to play shinny

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