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Old
10-24-2006, 03:03 PM
  #51
Edge
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Bluenote, this is going to sound funny but when I think about what 94 is saying he has a good point from a certain perspective.

Lundqvist (along with Jagr) were the two biggest reasons this team did anything last year. They played world-class like allstars and so that covered everything else that wasn't working very well.

As such they were the two most important pieces to our success.

They aren't playing at that level this year and so likewise they are the two biggest reasons we aren't successful. So in a sense that fact they aren't playing on that level is our two biggest problems because they'd need to perform at that level for this team to succeed.

When you stop and think about it, it really does make sense. Not that it's fair the team relies on them so much but in actuality the fact that they are the two keys to success (which requires playing like supermen) and the fact that they haven't is a big reason we haven't been as successful.

It's a different way of thinking about the situation but when you really think about it, it makes sense.

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10-24-2006, 03:03 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You judge by impression. Just look at the stats. If Roszival is a second pair guy and Pronger is arguably #1 Puck Moving D in the league you must be able to name 29 or so puck moving Ds that are better than Rozsival. Be my guest...
I can think of 5 or 6. It is not 29, i.e. it is not too many.
You left out that there is not much difference between Malik and Chara. Also not much difference between Ozolinsh and Niedermayer. Or Purinton and Lidstrom. And let's not forget those two nearly identical defensemen, Orr and Rachunek.

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10-24-2006, 03:25 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Bluenote, this is going to sound funny but when I think about what 94 is saying he has a good point from a certain perspective.

Lundqvist (along with Jagr) were the two biggest reasons this team did anything last year. They played world-class like allstars and so that covered everything else that wasn't working very well.

As such they were the two most important pieces to our success.

They aren't playing at that level this year and so likewise they are the two biggest reasons we aren't successful. So in a sense that fact they aren't playing on that level is our two biggest problems because they'd need to perform at that level for this team to succeed.

When you stop and think about it, it really does make sense. Not that it's fair the team relies on them so much but in actuality the fact that they are the two keys to success (which requires playing like supermen) and the fact that they haven't is a big reason we haven't been as successful.

It's a different way of thinking about the situation but when you really think about it, it makes sense.
Okay, i'll agree thats one way of seeing it. But does that still make Lundqvist our biggest problem? That was my only issue with 94's way of thinking.

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10-24-2006, 03:29 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I can think of 5 or 6. It is not 29, i.e. it is not too many.
You can only think of 5 or 6 defensemen better than Rozsival? That means that you can think of roughly 25 other teams where Rozsival becomes their #1 defenseman. Can you please tell me what teams those are? What teams would have Rozsival skate on their top pair, besides the Rangers?

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10-24-2006, 03:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
It's a different way of thinking about the situation but when you really think about it, it makes sense.
If the thought process is that relying on two people to play at a superhuman level is normal, then it does make sense.

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10-24-2006, 03:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Okay, i'll agree thats one way of seeing it. But does that still make Lundqvist our biggest problem? That was my only issue with 94's way of thinking.
Well it does make him the biggest problem, the fact that he's not playing on that level.

That doesn't mean he's a bad player, but rather that the biggest problem is that he isn't playing on that super human level.

I think it's a different approach to looking at things, but I think there might be a miscommunication here.

The biggest problem is that Lundqvist NEEDS to play at that level and hasn't in turn, however we can say that it's wrong to expect him to have to carrythings like that.

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10-24-2006, 03:36 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You left out that there is not much difference between Malik and Chara. Also not much difference between Ozolinsh and Niedermayer. Or Purinton and Lidstrom. And let's not forget those two nearly identical defensemen, Orr and Rachunek.
I didn't say that Pronger and Roszival are same. Roszival is not an elite D, but because of the fact that majority of #1 D in this league are not an elite defensemen either there is not many D-men in between him and Pronger. Ozolinch (of 2003, didn't see him play, missed Toronto game) is one of them. Niedermayer another one. Chara is Stay-at-Home D, out of comparison. Rachunek below him, but may become an elite D eventually Lidstrom makes it three. Total number of elite #1 D is about 5-6 maybe 8 (stay-at-home guys are excluded). Roszival is in second dozen for those who dislike him as person and higher for the rest. That doesn't make him terrible or in need of urgent upgrade. No problem last year. Now you want Pronger? Sather could get him, but he dind't for a reason.

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10-24-2006, 03:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
If the thought process is that relying on two people to play at a superhuman level is normal, then it does make sense.
And that's what needed to happen for this team to be successful. The plan and approach of expecting that is flawed, but under that approach the problem is that they haven't played to that level.

Doesn't mean the expectation was fair, but under that approach the problem is that the two guys who needed to play at that level haven't.

The flaw is not in Jagr or Lundqvist, but in the approach.

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10-24-2006, 03:42 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Well it does make him the biggest problem, the fact that he's not playing on that level.

That doesn't mean he's a bad player, but rather that the biggest problem is that he isn't playing on that super human level.

I think it's a different approach to looking at things, but I think there might be a miscommunication here.

The biggest problem is that Lundqvist NEEDS to play at that level and hasn't in turn, however we can say that it's wrong to expect him to have to carrythings like that.
Umm, thats my point exactly. If your performance is okay, not great, does your boss blame you for not picking up everyone else's slack and overachieving when pretty much everything is wrong in one certain area, or do you share the blame?

It's unrealistic to think a goalie can bail you out every game the team is giving a lackluster defsensive performance, thats all i'm saying.

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10-24-2006, 03:43 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post

The flaw is not in Jagr or Lundqvist, but in the approach.
Exactly. The question is whether Rangers are able to adjust in terms of both willingness and capability.

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10-24-2006, 03:47 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Umm, thats my point exactly. If your performance is okay, not great, does your boss blame you for not picking up everyone else's slack and overachieving when pretty much everything is wrong in one certain area, or do you share the blame?

It's unrealistic to think a goalie can bail you out every game the team is giving a lackluster defsensive performance, thats all i'm saying.
And it is, but whether it was realistic or not that's what was going to need to happen.

I think there's a distinction between a problem and blame. The problem is that Jagr and Lundqvist aren't playing like superheros. As unrealistic as it might be, that's what needed to happen even though it wasn't very fair. However I don't blame or fault them for that.

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10-24-2006, 03:47 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Umm, thats my point exactly. If your performance is okay, not great, does your boss blame you for not picking up everyone else's slack and overachieving when pretty much everything is wrong in one certain area, or do you share the blame?

It's unrealistic to think a goalie can bail you out every game the team is giving a lackluster defsensive performance, thats all i'm saying.
Not quite correct comparison. Goalie that stops everything not necessarily work harder. He just does it. In fact it is more tiring to suck.

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10-24-2006, 03:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
And it is, but whether it was realistic or not that's what was going to need to happen.

I think there's a distinction between a problem and blame. The problem is that Jagr and Lundqvist aren't playing like superheros. As unrealistic as it might be, that's what needed to happen even though it wasn't very fair. However I don't blame or fault them for that.
Neither do I. I just disappointed as a fan. Bravo, Edge!

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10-24-2006, 03:49 PM
  #64
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I don't think you guys are really that far off in your idea, I just think there is a communication gap.

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10-24-2006, 04:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Not quite correct comparison. Goalie that stops everything not necessarily work harder. He just does it. In fact it is more tiring to suck.
I totally disagree that a goalie who stops everything isn't necessarily working hard, that deserves my highest form of

It's more tiring to suck? No, it's more tiring to be left out to dry because your players can't holdback the attacking forwards.

Again, players not playing superhuman has nothing to do with how Roszileetch, Malik or the any of other gang that couldn't shoot straight have missed assignments or have been beaten even before the shot has been taken.

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10-24-2006, 04:10 PM
  #66
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Roszival is in second dozen for those who dislike him as person and higher for the rest.
Then telling us what on what teams Rozsival would be a top-pairing defenseman should not be a problem.

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10-25-2006, 08:25 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
And it is, but whether it was realistic or not that's what was going to need to happen.

I think there's a distinction between a problem and blame. The problem is that Jagr and Lundqvist aren't playing like superheros. As unrealistic as it might be, that's what needed to happen even though it wasn't very fair. However I don't blame or fault them for that.
I 100% disagree. The problem is not with Lundqvist and Jagr. Jagr is on the same pace as last year. Lundqvist, while not performing at super level is not costing the team.

Difference between the two seasons is that this year there is zero cohesion on the ice. No one seems to know what the other is doing, resulting in an insane differential in quality scoring chances between NY and the opposition.

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10-25-2006, 08:29 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I didn't say that Pronger and Roszival are same. Roszival is not an elite D, but because of the fact that majority of #1 D in this league are not an elite defensemen either there is not many D-men in between him and Pronger. Ozolinch (of 2003, didn't see him play, missed Toronto game) is one of them. Niedermayer another one. Chara is Stay-at-Home D, out of comparison. Rachunek below him, but may become an elite D eventually Lidstrom makes it three. Total number of elite #1 D is about 5-6 maybe 8 (stay-at-home guys are excluded). Roszival is in second dozen for those who dislike him as person and higher for the rest. That doesn't make him terrible or in need of urgent upgrade. No problem last year. Now you want Pronger? Sather could get him, but he dind't for a reason.
Who dislikes Roszival as a person? I've never met the man. Absurd argument.

If there was no such thing as a salary cap I would have no problem coming up with a minimum of 50 defensemen that I would gladly accept in return for Roszival. I don't know if I could come up with more than 2 or 3, if that many, that I would accept even up for Pronger. You are comparing a #4 defenseman with a likely HOF'er and expecting to be taken seriously in your talent evaluation.

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10-25-2006, 10:40 AM
  #69
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You are comparing a #4 defenseman with a likely HOF'er and expecting to be taken seriously in your talent evaluation.
I don't do any comparisons. My point was that our defensemen are adequate and the only upgrade to Roszival would be an elite type player. Getting an elite defenseman is more difficult than get goalie to play better, which gets you the same improvement. That was my point. You seems to think that Rozy is waaaay below elite level and there are tons of non-elite Ds that are better than him. Instead of proving your point and come up with names, you started joking with sarcasm simply because I used Pronger as an example of an elite D. Ok, I can take Pronger back and substitute him with Rafalski, who is an elite D IMO, but some may disagree.

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10-25-2006, 11:00 AM
  #70
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I don't do any comparisons. My point was that our defensemen are adequate and the only upgrade to Roszival would be an elite type player. Getting an elite defenseman is more difficult than get goalie to play better, which gets you the same improvement. That was my point. You seems to think that Rozy is waaaay below elite level and there are tons of non-elite Ds that are better than him. Instead of proving your point and come up with names, you started joking with sarcasm simply because I used Pronger as an example of an elite D. Ok, I can take Pronger back and substitute him with Rafalski, who is an elite D IMO, but some may disagree.
You make an absurd statement and I have to waste time writing 50 names to prove you wrong. Not gonna happen.

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10-25-2006, 11:18 AM
  #71
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You make an absurd statement and I have to waste time writing 50 names to prove you wrong. Not gonna happen.
Fine. Just keep in mind that no one was taking Chara seriously when he was Fishstick.

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10-25-2006, 11:24 AM
  #72
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There is zero cohesion...

which includes 5-on-5 with Jagr on the ice. One difference from last season is that when Jagr's on the ice, the ice isn't slanted towards the offensive zone. Puck possession was partly a reason for the good defense last season. It hasn't been there this season and the team defense hasn't adjusted as a whole.

Also, Jagr has 2 goals in 8 games...zero on the PP...is that really what his pace was last season? This is despite taking a ton of shots (mostly ineffective). Heck, looking at the team goal scoring as a whole and Shanny really sticks out like a sore thumb with 8, considering the next guy has 3.

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10-25-2006, 11:56 AM
  #73
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I 100% disagree. The problem is not with Lundqvist and Jagr. Jagr is on the same pace as last year. Lundqvist, while not performing at super level is not costing the team.

Difference between the two seasons is that this year there is zero cohesion on the ice. No one seems to know what the other is doing, resulting in an insane differential in quality scoring chances between NY and the opposition.
Again they aren't to blame but Jagr having two goals and Lundqvist having a gaa. about .80 points higher and a sv. pct about .020 points lower are problems.

While neither of those are the faults of those players, they are very big problems on the team.

Now I'm not saying it is the end all be all by any stretch, what I'm saying is that I think there is some truth to what 94 is saying.

Jagr only have two goals and Lundqvists "off" game have been a problem and they've been major problems that is part of the bigger cohesion issue.

Are they at fault for that, no.

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10-29-2006, 09:29 AM
  #74
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lundy will be ok, i think his second SEL season he was off...he will dominate..mark my words the King will rise again on the 3rd day...

can some one make a lundy/LORT: return of the king avatar or sig?

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10-29-2006, 09:49 AM
  #75
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lundy will be ok, i think his second SEL season he was off...he will dominate..mark my words the King will rise again on the 3rd day...

can some one make a lundy/LORT: return of the king avatar or sig?
I think our saviour would loathe the idea of ROTK.

It's already been used by Stefan Liv (who even had a ROTK mask when he returned to the national team )

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