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SEL vs. SM-Liiga vs. RSL

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Old
10-18-2006, 09:36 PM
  #26
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Since this is going all to "which is best european league" there isn't any kind of stats/evidence which would support SEL being best league in Europe, not single one. And about goalies from outside of country(RSL) point, just watch SEL too, they have a lot finnish goalies. Quite funny that every1 non-swedish(not russian either) is saying RSL is better, but only swedes think their league rules the world. They haven't even been a lot better(or at all) than finnish teams and still finns have A LOT smaller budgets.

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10-21-2006, 04:29 AM
  #27
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I would say that the SEL is a more strategic and defensive league, the games I've seen from the RSL looks so wide open without any structure.

And by the way, who cares about some little championship during the season when team Elitserien won the World Champions last season and had a bunch (5) of players in the Olympics.

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10-21-2006, 05:14 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I have heard it before:

Me: Prucha better than Crosby
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...=Prucha+Crosby

Stan Fischler: Prucha better than Crosby ‎
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...=Prucha+Crosby

the five or so Parise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crosby threads that i think the original posters deleted in shame recently.

The Vanek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crosby threads.

..........and on and on. Believe me, unless this one is deleted as well, I will gladly pull this one up in a year to have a good laugh over too.
So basically, your point is that anybody using the >>>>>>>>>>> no-argument should look stupid except if the player at the greater end of the equation plays for Pittsburgh?

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10-21-2006, 06:38 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Garl View Post
I watched hundreds RSL games and I would not say that it is the best league in Europe.
I think that it is like comparing Spanish, English and Italian soccer leagues.
Which of them is better? You can say that Barcelona won LC and Seville won UEFA so Spanish league is the best. But it's very arguable. And Italian league is harder for scoring than Spanish
So you can name RSL best European league, but SEL is on the same level like Spanish and Italian soccer leagues.
Finally someone who have seen ONE RSL game comments on the subject. I have only seen a handful of RSL games, but would defenitly say that the RSL aren't a good league at all. But its probably darn tough to have success in it, since the conditions seems to be terrible, compared to the NHL and the SEL for example.

Some teams in the RSL are stocked with talent compared to other teams in Europe. Though the style of hockey beeing played is not on par with the rest of the leagues.

On this subject, Malkins performance in the RSL, is proof of how great he is, cause its darn tough to have offensive success there. Though at the same time, I would never expect a player from the RSL to be as well schooled tactic wise as a player from SM-Liiga or the SEL.

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10-21-2006, 08:52 AM
  #30
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Raimo Summanen few weeks ago said in his interview said that from his point of view RSL is best league in Europe. The same was said by Kevin Prendergast. Take it for what it worth.

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10-21-2006, 10:37 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
I think Malkin is better, but the gap isn't as big as many people thought going into the season. As impressive as Kopitar's start is, though, I think Malkin's would have been moreso.

Last year in the RSL, Malkin had 21g, 26a for 47 pts in 46 games.

Last year in the SEL, Kopitar had 8g, 12a for 20 pts in 47 games.

Malkin is one year, three weeks older than Kopitar. Both were playing in a pro league. I leave it to the Swedes and Russians to argue which is a tougher league, but I would give the edge to the SEL. Regardless, scoring is low in both leagues as assists are tougher to come by.

I've seen highlights of Malkin and his skating is very impressive for a big man. Kopitar moves well, too, but he doesn't have the breakaway speed that Malkin does. Some of the highlights I've seen, he looks like a runaway freight train. That's my two cents. Next?
If I remember correctly Malkin played in the best league in Russia while Kopitar was in med teir league.

As for the player Malkin is far superior.

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10-21-2006, 10:49 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flambers View Post
Malkin played in the best league in Russia while Kopitar was in med teir league.
Well, like I said, I'll leave it the Swedes and Russians to argue because, honestly, I have never seen a game in either league. It would appear that more unbiased people think the Russian league is better quality. I'll buy into that.

However, i don't think the Swedish league is a med teir league or even a mid-tier league. If it is, then what other pro leagues in Europe, other than the RSL, would be better than than the SEL? Finland, Czech Extraligue?

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Old
10-21-2006, 11:23 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
However, i don't think the Swedish league is a med teir league or even a mid-tier league. If it is, then what other pro leagues in Europe, other than the RSL, would be better than than the SEL? Finland, Czech Extraligue?
IMO SEL is the second best league, and Finnish league is third. But the gap between RSL and SEL is bigger than what it is between SEL and FEL. RSL is the clear no.1 league in Europe IMO.

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Old
10-21-2006, 11:25 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SectionX View Post
SEL is wideley known as the best leuage outside of NHL. I can agree that RSL is equal, but other than that your reports are off.

So it goes like this.

RSL > SEL in Skill and offense
SEL > RSL in strategy, teamwork, defense

Plus that SEL has many even teams this year. Anyone can virtually win, and not 2-3 teams that are superior the others. The finnish league is also good, but it doesn't have the money to compete with SEL. More talented europeans prefer SEL to the finnish league for that sole reason. Look at the lockout season. Many high profile players from NHL played in SEL that year.
i'm a little late, but the reason why there weren't many nhl players in the finnish league during the lockout, is basically the high finnish taxation. that is why even most of the finnish nhl players chose not to play in finland and the ones that did play here, played only for a few months in order to avoid taxes.

i'd say the sel isn't even the second best league in europe after the rsl. the finnish league is better; the best finnish teams beat the best swedish teams every year. and i don't even like the finnish league.

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Old
10-21-2006, 11:28 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by blacklabel View Post
IMO SEL is the second best league, and Finnish league is third. But the gap between RSL and SEL is bigger than what it is between SEL and FEL. RSL is the clear no.1 league in Europe IMO.
Have you ever seen a game between two RSL teams? I've seen the top teams in Russia look good during EC, though when I 've seen them play against each other in the RSL, some games are just ridiculosly bad. All individual efforts, no systems, just the player with the puck skating ect.

To be honest I think there is a much bigger diffrence between the SEL and the SM-liiga right now. Since the SM-liiga closed it have been in a downward spiral. Some of the players dominating in that league, aren't just very good.

The SM-liiga plays a style that is good for developing young kids for the NHL, though its not on par with the SEL, far from it, IMHO.

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10-21-2006, 11:48 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Some of the players dominating in that league, aren't just very good.
Like who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The SM-liiga plays a style that is good for developing young kids for the NHL, though its not on par with the SEL, far from it, IMHO.
I've seen both SEL and SM-liiga games, and I must disagree. I mean that 'far from it' part.

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10-21-2006, 02:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
Raimo Summanen few weeks ago said in his interview said that from his point of view RSL is best league in Europe. The same was said by Kevin Prendergast. Take it for what it worth.
Sport-Express?

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Old
10-21-2006, 02:49 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Have you ever seen a game between two RSL teams? I've seen the top teams in Russia look good during EC, though when I 've seen them play against each other in the RSL, some games are just ridiculosly bad. All individual efforts, no systems, just the player with the puck skating ect.

To be honest I think there is a much bigger diffrence between the SEL and the SM-liiga right now. Since the SM-liiga closed it have been in a downward spiral. Some of the players dominating in that league, aren't just very good.

The SM-liiga plays a style that is good for developing young kids for the NHL, though its not on par with the SEL, far from it, IMHO.
The coaching in Russia is a weak part. Bilyaletdinov(Ak Bars coach) created one great offensive line that is deadly in PP(Zaripov-Zinovyev-Morozov). As the defences in Russia aren't great this line produces unbelivebile stats.
For comparing the leagues:
The last three teams in SEL are
Malmц-their best players Soderberg, Pirjetä , Riihijärvi,Moravec maybe some people here know Bartovic.
Frцlunda-Fransson, Niemi, Ronnie Sundin, Pettinen, Seikola, Kallio, Andersson,Cibak, Pluss.
Djurgеrden-Otosson, Umicevic, Ask, Bremberg.

So this are well-known at least in Europe players.

in RSL last three teams are:
Amur-best players Suursoo, Evdokimov, Ostroushko.
Krilya Sovetov-Dorofeev, Kvartalnov, Deev, Gubin.
Traktor-Gelashvili, Kasyantchuk, Utkin.

I think that the only well-known name of this is Kvartalnov. And he is 40 year old.

There are some more problems in RSL: weak calls, HUGE gap between leaders and bottom teams.
And sometimes occure financial problems.
Only in last year 8 teams suffered financial crisis. Players of Dynamo(Champion of RSL 04/05)had not been paid for 6 month. And Spartak gone out of RSL due to this problems.

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Old
10-21-2006, 07:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garl View Post
Frцlunda-Fransson, Niemi, Ronnie Sundin, Pettinen, Seikola, Kallio, Andersson,Cibak, Pluss.
Don't know if that are the top player/most known ranking for Frölunda or not, but if it is then it should look more like:¨

Steve Kariya, Martin Cibák, Tomi Kallio, Niklas Andersson, Martin Plüss and Tommy Salo.

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Old
10-22-2006, 06:57 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
To be honest I think there is a much bigger diffrence between the SEL and the SM-liiga right now. Since the SM-liiga closed it have been in a downward spiral. Some of the players dominating in that league, aren't just very good.
Why then SEL teams are losing more to finnish ones trough the year than finnish teams to swedish ones? Just curious. And just name all these players who are dominating SM-liiga and are bad?

And for that point "because of better skilllevel players joined swedish league" that's just ********. They joined because of money. Swedish teams are paying a lot more, they have better taxation system, etc.

And most of finnish experts are saying RSL is best league outside NHL. I'll take Summanen's and players who have played in RSL words over some swedish fanboys words anyday, sorry.

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Old
10-22-2006, 09:47 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Joretus View Post
Why then SEL teams are losing more to finnish ones trough the year than finnish teams to swedish ones? Just curious. And just name all these players who are dominating SM-liiga and are bad?

And for that point "because of better skilllevel players joined swedish league" that's just ********. They joined because of money. Swedish teams are paying a lot more, they have better taxation system, etc.

And most of finnish experts are saying RSL is best league outside NHL. I'll take Summanen's and players who have played in RSL words over some swedish fanboys words anyday, sorry.
Look Wikegård said it the best way, the best players in the Finnish league goes to the SEL, the players in Sweden who don't get contracts, goes the other way. Thats pretty much a fact.

Discussing certain players, will amount in a stats discussion, and I don't belive in that, it have so much to do with the enviorment.

Discussing the European Cup is also ridiculos, atleast since all Swedish team look at it as a big speed bump during the SEL. Look at HV71 sending a bunch of juniors there, playing there 3rd goalie at the time...

When it comes to Hockey, Finns are extremely jealous of Sweden, so I would take what your experts say with a grain of salt, Swedish experts also refers to the SEL as the best league outside the NHL.

I think the overall talent in the SEL are much higher then the SM-liiga. Its a fact that the budgets teams have have a big impact, the budgets teams in the SEL are much higher then thoose the finnish teams have. The SEL is also not a closed league like the finnish league, so the bad teams have a tremendous amount of pressure here to be good, something they don't have in Finland.

The top teams in the Russian League have by far the biggest budgets, and best rosters in Europe. They seem to value the EC allot. But the games I've seen between RSL teams, they get about as much out of their talent, as the russian national team gets from their talent in International tournaments. So in terms of quality getting out of the material, the SEL are 10x better then the RSL.

At the same time it also depends what exactly we are discussing. The SM-liiga is a very good place for kids who wants to make it to the NHL. The RSL is a extremely tough place to have success in, due to the enviorment. In order for a player to have success (not only looking at stats) in the SEL, he often must be pretty darn perfect, due to the emphisias on defense and systems over here, but the results are often that veterans gets a nod over kids.

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10-22-2006, 10:00 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
When it comes to Hockey, Finns are extremely jealous of Sweden, so I would take what your experts say with a grain of salt, Swedish experts also refers to the SEL as the best league outside the NHL.
Oh, I realize: Swedish hockey experts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Finnish hockey experts when it comes to judging the best league in Europe.

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10-22-2006, 10:00 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Garl View Post
The coaching in Russia is a weak part. Bilyaletdinov(Ak Bars coach) created one great offensive line that is deadly in PP(Zaripov-Zinovyev-Morozov). As the defences in Russia aren't great this line produces unbelivebile stats.
For comparing the leagues:
The last three teams in SEL are
Malmц-their best players Soderberg, Pirjetä , Riihijärvi,Moravec maybe some people here know Bartovic.
Frцlunda-Fransson, Niemi, Ronnie Sundin, Pettinen, Seikola, Kallio, Andersson,Cibak, Pluss.
Djurgеrden-Otosson, Umicevic, Ask, Bremberg.

So this are well-known at least in Europe players.

in RSL last three teams are:
Amur-best players Suursoo, Evdokimov, Ostroushko.
Krilya Sovetov-Dorofeev, Kvartalnov, Deev, Gubin.
Traktor-Gelashvili, Kasyantchuk, Utkin.

I think that the only well-known name of this is Kvartalnov. And he is 40 year old.

There are some more problems in RSL: weak calls, HUGE gap between leaders and bottom teams.
And sometimes occure financial problems.
Only in last year 8 teams suffered financial crisis. Players of Dynamo(Champion of RSL 04/05)had not been paid for 6 month. And Spartak gone out of RSL due to this problems.
Man thanks for a great knowledgeble post. I have always admired Russian hockey, besides Sweden, Russia is always the team I cheer for in international tournaments.

But thoose who describe the RSL right now as a extremely good and competetive league, haven't seen any games from it. I think it could be much much better, considering the talent on the top teams. But the surroundings aren't good. The living enviorments aren't the best. I doubt the practise enviorments aren't awful in general compared to the SEL and USA. The enviorments in the rinks aren't either that good, in the games I saw, some of them between the top teams, there seemd to be around 1500-3000 in the stands. Russian coaches also, I think, don't exactly always use the best systems ect. In the end all these aspects have a big impact on the product.

I don't know why we are having this discussion in the first place. Though I if someone cares about it, maybe so they can compare results from the leagues, the SEL and the RSL are by far the best leagues in Europe right now, then there is a pretty big drop to the Czech and Finnish leagues. All in terms of how competetive the leagues are.

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Old
10-22-2006, 10:01 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by blacklabel View Post
Oh, I realize: Swedish hockey experts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Finnish hockey experts when it comes to judging the best league in Europe.
Hey, I love the Finnish expert on YLE that speaks Swedish, whats his name?

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10-22-2006, 10:01 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by blacklabel View Post
Oh, I realize: Swedish hockey experts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Finnish hockey experts when it comes to judging the best league in Europe.
What Wikegård said about the players are a fact, do you dispute that?

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10-22-2006, 10:04 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
What Wikegård said about the players are a fact, do you dispute that?
Name the best players in SM-liiga that move to SEL.

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Old
10-22-2006, 11:07 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Look Wikegård said it the best way, the best players in the Finnish league goes to the SEL, the players in Sweden who don't get contracts, goes the other way. Thats pretty much a fact.
0 finnish players of top-20 last year changed to Swedish team. Meanwhile most of goalies who are 2nd strings or playing in second level in Finland are being starting goalies/equal partners in your so l33t league.

Sure swedish teams have more money and more top talented players, BUT in Finland there is still good amount of talent in youngsters and own players. And there isn't many swedish players anyway in here and at least Öhman were top player in his swedish team too. Or you think Öhman wouldn't have get contract?

All in all, surely Sweden got more nameplayers, more money guarintees it. But if you are just about money, then you can't compete with RSL or even Swiss league, so is it all about money or about teams generally? Seems like when you are comparing Sweden vs Russia it's about your opionions, rosters etc. None of results or budgets matter. Then when you are going to compare Sweden vs Finland it's all about budgets and names, nothing about results or true level of playing.

So you are twisting facts as long as it shows in your eyes your league is better, no matter what others(ie. some unbiased experts) think or say or show.

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10-22-2006, 11:10 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by blacklabel View Post
Name the best players in SM-liiga that move to SEL.
Of the players on the 2005 WCH Finnish roster, 14 players play in Europe. 6 of them plays in Sweden today. To my knowledge only 4-6 of them plays in Finland.

2006 WCH's, 6 players in the SEL, only 2 or 3 plays in Finland.

So, its pretty much a fact that even your own national team coach think the best finnish players play in Sweden. It will be interesting to see this years WCH, how many finns comes from the SEL, could be a record amount.

Top finns in the SEL (just on the top of my head):
Tomi Kallio (Wouldn't he be among the best in the finnish league?)
Lasse Pirjätä
Esa Pirnäs
Pekka Saaravo
Anti Jussi Niemi
Timmo Pärsinen
Riku Hahl
Puistola
Louma
Niskala
Pettinen

Top swedes:
Jörgen Jönsson
Mika Hannula
Mikael Renberg
Niklas Bäckström
Jonathan Hedström
Andreas Johansson
Niklas Sundström

Top no-Swe/fin foreign players:
Lubos Bartecko
Jan Hrdina
Martin Cibak
Roman Chechmanek
Richard Lintner
Tomas Surovy
Jason King
Richard Lintner
Jaroslav Obsut
Steve Kariya
Ross Lupachuck
David Moravec

Thats almost 30 players. 20+ of them have experience from the NHL, and I am 100% sure I missed atleast 5 big names. A big majority of them have played in World Cups and Olympics, the tournaments where all the best participate. Almost all of them have played in the WCH. The one who should be the biggest expert in Finland, your national team coach, constantly picks the finns I listed to play for the Finnish national team.

Go ahead and list the top 30 players in the Finnish league. You will your self see how big a diffrence there is between the SEL and the SM-liiga between the best players. I would also say that there is a even bigger diffrence between the depth players.

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10-22-2006, 11:14 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Of the players on the 2005 WCH Finnish roster, 14 players play in Europe. 6 of them plays in Sweden today. To my knowledge only 4-6 of them plays in Finland.

2006 WCH's, 6 players in the SEL, only 2 or 3 plays in Finland.

So, its pretty much a fact that even your own national team coach think the best finnish players play in Sweden. It will be interesting to see this years WCH, how many finns comes from the SEL, could be a record amount.

Top finns in the SEL (just on the top of my head):
Tomi Kallio (Wouldn't he be among the best in the finnish league?)
Lasse Pirjätä
Esa Pirnäs
Pekka Saaravo
Anti Jussi Niemi
Timmo Pärsinen
Riku Hahl
Puistola
Louma
Niskala
Pettinen

Top swedes:
Jörgen Jönsson
Mika Hannula
Mikael Renberg
Niklas Bäckström
Jonathan Hedström
Andreas Johansson
Niklas Sundström

Top no-Swe/fin foreign players:
Lubos Bartecko
Jan Hrdina
Martin Cibak
Roman Chechmanek
Richard Lintner
Tomas Surovy
Jason King
Richard Lintner
Jaroslav Obsut
Steve Kariya
Ross Lupachuck
David Moravec

Thats almost 30 players. 20+ of them have experience from the NHL, and I am 100% sure I missed atleast 5 big names. A big majority of them have played in World Cups and Olympics, the tournaments where all the best participate. Almost all of them have played in the WCH. The one who should be the biggest expert in Finland, your national team coach, constantly picks the finns I listed to play for the Finnish national team.

Go ahead and list the top 30 players in the Finnish league. You will your self see how big a diffrence there is between the SEL and the SM-liiga between the best players. I would also say that there is a even bigger diffrence between the depth players.
Finland had more players from Swiss league in Olympic Games&World Cup than from finnish league, does this mean Swiss league is better than finnish? Curious how does those nameplayers in Sweden means swedish league being better than finnish, but all name players in Russia does not mean it's better than swedish league?

Oh and btw. only Pärssinen of those finnish have dominated in Finland, most have been only good players in their team, nothing special. Ie. Niemi, Saravo, Pettinen, Niskala, Hahl and Pirjetä haven't been anything special.

Btw. you really should try to spell at least one finnish name once right so it would give you some credilibity.

And as addition I do think Swedish league might be better than finnish, but russian is in top level a lot better. Any1 unbiased would say it after seeing RSL top teams.

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Old
10-22-2006, 11:21 AM
  #50
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Joretus- Hey, my opinion, is all about what I've seen with my own eyes. Seeing games from the SM-liiga, the SEL and the RSL.

Obviously a opinion around here aren't worth squat, so I am trying to back it up with facts.

Stefan Öhman, the top swedish player in the finnish league, atleast in stats, is not a very good player. He have played ZERO national team games in big tournaments. Had 29pts in 50 games his last season in the SEL. His team didn't want to resign him for the money he wanted, and no other team in the SEL wanted to pay to 50k USD it would take to get him.

Swedish teams have much bigger budgets then Swiss teams do, so there goes that argument. Swiss teams spends allot on 5-6 big stars. Still the SEL have better players then the Swiss league, why is that? Competition? You can bet on it.

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