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SEL vs. SM-Liiga vs. RSL

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Old
10-22-2006, 11:29 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Still the SEL have better players then the Swiss league, why is that? Competition? You can bet on it.
At least no when it goes to finns. Swiss league had last year Nummelin&Peltonen, both of them were top players in Olympic Games for Finland. Metropolit too, only player of these top leagues in WCH for Canada.

Reason is simple, there is just 3 outside of europe and 2 EU-players allowed in Switzerland. So how they could have so much stars than swedish teams? Tell me.

Swedish teams are hoovering players who haven't been anything special in Finland even worse than ok when it goes to goalies.

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10-22-2006, 11:31 AM
  #52
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Joretus- Sorry but you live in a dream world.

Sure the guys I listed aren't special. Right.

And that only the Finns.

All the best Swedes in Europe, plays in Sweden. While the best finns apparantly plays in Finland, and Swiss and Sweden. According to you national team coach the huge majority of em plays outside of finland.

Look at the Czech and Slovak players in Sweden. Also guys who their respective national team coach constantly picks for the best tournaments, or the WCH. How many of thoose do you have in Finland.

These are facts. Based on choices made by national team coaches around the world.

There is a big big diffrence in talent between the SEL and the SM-liiga. You go ahead and list the top 30 from the SM-liiga and it will become even more obvious...

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10-22-2006, 11:33 AM
  #53
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Swedish teams are hoovering players who haven't been anything special in Finland even worse than ok when it goes to goalies.
Lasse Pirjätä, Esa Pirnäs, Pekka Saaravo, Anti Jussi Niemi, Timmo Pärsinen and Riku Hahl aren't special? Then why do your national team coach constantly pick em for your national team over players from the SM-liiga?

Its pretty obvious that the top finnish players in Sweden, are better then the top finnish players in Finland. Not even counting in the rest of the players in the SEL.

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10-22-2006, 11:34 AM
  #54
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The best players in SM-liiga usually move either NA, Switzerland, or Sweden OR they stay in Finland. Its not a fact as you make it out to be that they always go to Sweden.

Anyway, the Finnish league is based mostly on great teamplay, goaltending and coaching (just like our national team), so how the teams look on paper doesn't tell the whole truth. Jokerit coach Doug Shedden said it perfectly. He said something along the lines that he doesn't need players like Gretzky or Selänne to make a success for the team, but he needs hardworking players like Valtonen, Pakaslahti and Kankaanperä instead. Team spirit is the key word.

How else do you think our success in the Olympics came from? Aki frikking Berg looked like an all-star defenceman out there.

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10-22-2006, 11:35 AM
  #55
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Joretus- Sorry but you live in a dream world.

Sure the guys I listed aren't special. Right.
Well they aren't. Sorry. Guys like Peltonen, Nummelin, Metropolit are. Kallio could be, Pärssinen were couple of seasons and Norrena was too.

Sure there is much more potential in Sweden, still swedish teams are equal every time against finnish teams. And my point have been all the time about teams&leagues, not about names. Russian teams doesn't have so much media sexy players for us scandis, but still they are beating swedish, finnish and every other european team all the time when it comes to top teams and top competition.

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10-22-2006, 11:40 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Lasse Pirjätä, Esa Pirnäs, Pekka Saaravo, Anti Jussi Niemi, Timmo Pärsinen and Riku Hahl aren't special? Then why do your national team coach constantly pick em for your national team over players from the SM-liiga?
Ie. Hahl is good in his role, same goes for Niemi. Pirjetä haven't been in finnish teams in 2 years and he have 4 points in 21 games in World Champs. Pärssinen have played in one international tournament in 4 years. Saravo had 17points in finnish league, for offensive d-man it isn't anything special. As I did state they are good players, but nothing special, like ie. Nummelin, Peltonen, etc.

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10-22-2006, 11:42 AM
  #57
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The best players in SM-liiga usually move either NA, Switzerland, or Sweden OR they stay in Finland. Its not a fact as you make it out to be that they always go to Sweden.

Anyway, the Finnish league is based mostly on great teamplay, goaltending and coaching (just like our national team), so how the teams look on paper doesn't tell the whole truth. Jokerit coach Doug Shedden said it perfectly. He said something along the lines that he doesn't need players like Gretzky or Selänne to make a success for the team, but he needs hardworking players like Valtonen, Pakaslahti and Kankaanperä instead. Team spirit is the key word.

How else do you think our success in the Olympics came from? Aki frikking Berg looked like an all-star defenceman out there.
Spot on. Nothing to add.

You swedes can think your league is best in the world, I don't actually care. Just had to state the obvious that none of experts I have talked to have said Swedish league is best outside NHL. Only league mentioned being best is RSL. Rest leagues have their pros and cons.

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10-22-2006, 11:50 AM
  #58
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Blacklabel and Joertus- All you guys got is the EC. Its played in 3 days. IMO that says it all. Its not even showed on TV here in Sweden, the few times it have been its on channels that only a small minority get. On one occasion a Swedish team sent a handful of juniors to it.

The facts are that by a wide margin there are better, more talented, players in the SEL then the SM-liiga. You guys also hints that the Finnish teams are better teams then the Swedes are? Look, thats far fetched if anything. Look at the history between swedes and finns in international tournaments. The one time you guys won, you had a Swedish coach, remember?

I am not saying that the SM-liiga in any way is a bad league, but its relativitly easy to have success in the finnish league.

If you want me to start listing players from Finland with good stats comming to the SEL and only scoring around 0.30 pts per game, it will be a long night.

Besides, if even Kallio aren't a special player in your opinion, what does that say more about, the state of Finnish hockey or the SEL.

And so far we have only discussed the finns in Sweden, and the finns in Sweden. You guys threw in Glen Metropolit as a special player too. Even if you guys don't admit it, Kallio should be in that cathegory, Pirnäs is a great team player.

How about Lubos Bartecko, Jan Hrdina, Jason King, Jörgen Jönsson, Mika Hannula, Mikael Renberg, Roman Chechmanek and Martin Cibak?

Who can you counter with, Martin Kariya and Stefan Öhman???

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10-22-2006, 12:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Joretus View Post
Spot on. Nothing to add.

You swedes can think your league is best in the world, I don't actually care. Just had to state the obvious that none of experts I have talked to have said Swedish league is best outside NHL. Only league mentioned being best is RSL. Rest leagues have their pros and cons.
Who are they? Look my impressions of finns is that they are extremely jealous of Swedish hockey in every aspect. See the YLE reporter running with tapes that showed Carters goal where in, during the finals in the 03´ WCH...

I am not suprised that Raimo S. talks trash about the SEL.

I can promise you that I also hear a ton of comments from experts and players that the SEL are the 2nd best in the world. I take em with a grain of salt, because I am not myself convinced that we are better then the RSL. Their top teams have more talent, defenitly not the lesser half, their conditions over in Russia are much worse. Ect.

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10-22-2006, 12:00 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Blacklabel and Joertus- All you guys got is the EC. Its played in 3 days. IMO that says it all. Its not even showed on TV here in Sweden, the few times it have been its on channels that only a small minority get. On one occasion a Swedish team sent a handful of juniors to it.

The facts are that by a wide margin there are better, more talented, players in the SEL then the SM-liiga. You guys also hints that the Finnish teams are better teams then the Swedes are? Look, thats far fetched if anything. Look at the history between swedes and finns in international tournaments. The one time you guys won, you had a Swedish coach, remember?

I am not saying that the SM-liiga in any way is a bad league, but its relativitly easy to have success in the finnish league.

If you want me to start listing players from Finland with good stats comming to the SEL and only scoring around 0.30 pts per game, it will be a long night.

Besides, if even Kallio aren't a special player in your opinion, what does that say more about, the state of Finnish hockey or the SEL.

And so far we have only discussed the finns in Sweden, and the finns in Sweden. You guys threw in Glen Metropolit as a special player too. Even if you guys don't admit it, Kallio should be in that cathegory, Pirnäs is a great team player.

How about Lubos Bartecko, Jan Hrdina, Jason King, Jörgen Jönsson, Mika Hannula, Mikael Renberg, Roman Chechmanek and Martin Cibak?
What the hell are you talking about?

I didn't say SM-liiga is better than SEL (IMO SEL is the second best league in Europe ), but SM-liiga isn't that far behind as you make it out to be. That's the only thing I disagree with you.

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10-22-2006, 12:03 PM
  #61
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Who are they? Look my impressions of finns is that they are extremely jealous of Swedish hockey in every aspect. See the YLE reporter running with tapes that showed Carters goal where in, during the finals in the 03´ WCH...

I am not suprised that Raimo S. talks trash about the SEL.

I can promise you that I also hear a ton of comments from experts and players that the SEL are the 2nd best in the world. I take em with a grain of salt, because I am not myself convinced that we are better then the RSL. Their top teams have more talent, defenitly not the lesser half, their conditions over in Russia are much worse. Ect.
Give it up already. You're making a fool out of yourself by saying the crap like 'Raimo Summanen hates swedes because he's finnish and it's a well known fact that all finns hate swedes.'

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10-22-2006, 12:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
If you want me to start listing players from Finland with good stats comming to the SEL and only scoring around 0.30 pts per game, it will be a long night.
Well it goes vice verca too. Ie. Saravo had last seasons about ~33% better point/game than in Finland ever. And I bet you don't want to start with goalies?

I'm not that one who is saying some league is better than some other, you are. And you are saying that only of names in teams.

If Swedish teams would be so special they should **** finns every match, no matter where. But they are playing equal or in EC finns are even winning. It's not big tournament in Finland either.

I'm not trying to show finnish league is better, just showing your argument that finnish league sucks, swedish rules the world is way of base. Same as you saying every top finnish player plays in SEL.

AFTER swedish team will win finnish team in EC or swedish teams will dominate any finnish team in every game. And AFTER swedish teams will even once win against RSL team in competive match you can try to say SEL is better than RSL. Meanwhile they are struggling even with finns.

No1 is denying swedish teams wouldn't have better players in paper, more money and more top notch talent. But the point is, finns are playing equal with less money and talent. And we are still having good players.

You never told us about those bad players who are dominating finnish league btw.

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10-22-2006, 12:05 PM
  #63
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Go ahead, list the top 30 players in the SM-liiga, include the goalies.

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10-22-2006, 12:07 PM
  #64
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Go ahead, list the top 30 players in the SM-liiga, include the goalies.
No, you told us about those bad players dominating finnish league who are bad. Tell us.

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10-22-2006, 12:08 PM
  #65
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See the YLE reporter running with tapes that showed Carters goal where in, during the finals in the 03´ WCH...
Cant believe you brought this up again.

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10-22-2006, 12:09 PM
  #66
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What the hell are you talking about?

I didn't say SM-liiga is better than SEL (IMO SEL is the second best league in Europe ), but SM-liiga isn't that far behind as you make it out to be. That's the only thing I disagree with you.
Sorry man, didn't mean to take it to that level, though I don't expect any love from Finns when it comes to hockey, I've lived 19 years in Haparanda, half of my best friends are atleast speaks finnish as their mother languege.

Also do you know what happends to Volvo's sell rates in Finland, after big hockey tournaments? Do you know in which comparable european state Volvo sells the least amount of cars? Don't tell me allot of finns don't feel very strongly against Swedes...

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10-22-2006, 12:11 PM
  #67
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No, you told us about those bad players dominating finnish league who are bad. Tell us.
If you with dominating means Peltonen type of hockey, I take that back. Thoose at the same level as Peltonen and Metropolit, are really good in the SM-liiga too.

But looking at the top 30 in Finland, I think there are allot of players that wouldn't be special in the SEL.

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10-22-2006, 12:18 PM
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But looking at the top 30 in Finland, I think there are allot of players that wouldn't be special in the SEL.
Yeah, like Seikola, who's doing better in Sweden than he used to in Finland.

Or Pitkämäki, who was a backup behind an 18 year old Rask last season and is having a rather good season in SEL right now.

You seem not to realize that SEL and SM-liiga are quite different leagues and your logic does not apply to this argument.

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10-22-2006, 12:43 PM
  #69
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Yeah, like Seikola, who's doing better in Sweden than he used to in Finland.

Or Pitkämäki, who was a backup behind an 18 year old Rask last season and is having a rather good season in SEL right now.

You seem not to realize that SEL and SM-liiga are quite different leagues and your logic does not apply to this argument.
We have to agree to dissagree then. Because thats exactly what I am dooing. I think the diffrence between the leagues in terms of style is big, and I don't think that diffrence is strength in the SM-liigas favor.

I think the teams in the Finnish league plays with there heads under there arms quite allot of times. Allot of crazy hustle, skating and hitting, not so much tactics and team play. Thats my humble opinion. You are allowed to have yours.

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10-22-2006, 12:53 PM
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I think the teams in the Finnish league plays with there heads under there arms quite allot of times. Allot of crazy hustle, skating and hitting, not so much tactics and team play. Thats my humble opinion. You are allowed to have yours.
http://hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=7570

Quote:
Asked which Euro league he felt most closely resembled the NHL, Prendergast indicated that the Russian one was by far the best league. “They have four weak teams over there but their high-end teams are as good as anybody,” said Edmonton’s chief scout earlier this season. “They’re all good leagues but if you’re looking for a league with the best players who are playing more of a North American style then it’s the Russian league. The Finnish League is very tight; you don’t always get a lot of goal scoring in that league. The Swedish League has probably opened up a bit with all the NHL players there, but normally it’s a tight checking league."

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10-22-2006, 01:20 PM
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"Asked which Euro league he felt most closely resembled the NHL"

In style, there is no question about it, the finnish league. Anyone who says anything else is a idiot.

The Russian league is very individual, therefor developing players who are great individually, see Kovalchuk for example. Therefor, Pendergast might have the opinion that Russia is the best place to find the best players, its perfectly possible that he is right. Though thats a matter of taste, NYR are only drafting players out of the Czech right now. In the mid 90's we took a ton of russians, after that a ton of Swedes, now a ton of Czech players.

If you are a young kid, finland might be the best place to be in, since the competition aren't that high, the style is very simular to the NHL.

Sweden is not the best place to develop fast for a young kid, look at the amount of late bloomers comming out of Sweden, you have to learn the basics of the game to a perfection if you want to have success in the SEL. A normal kid in the SEL, are 23-25 y/o, not 19/20...

BTW, that comments where made during the lockout year, half the NHL played in Russia, of course the style where simular to the NHL...

Seriously though, there is no contest, which league is closest to the NHL in style. Thats Finland.

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10-22-2006, 01:39 PM
  #72
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The Russian league is very individual, therefor developing players who are great individually, see Kovalchuk for example. Therefor, Pendergast might have the opinion that Russia is the best place to find the best players, its perfectly possible that he is right. Though thats a matter of taste, NYR are only drafting players out of the Czech right now. In the mid 90's we took a ton of russians, after that a ton of Swedes, now a ton of Czech players.
No, he said "the Russian league in by far the best league in Europe."

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10-22-2006, 01:58 PM
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Without trying to sound like a complete homer, its tough to compare talents when malkin has play makers, and goal scores on his line.

While kopitar plays on the first line, but his linemates are 2nd string at best.

Wish we had demitra still....

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10-22-2006, 02:04 PM
  #74
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Name the best players in SM-liiga that move to SEL.
The last time a REALLY REALLY good finn in his somewhat prime went to sweden was Jani Hassinen... Otherwise it has mostly been guys like Kalle Kerman etc.

And swedish experts calling the SEL the best league outside the NHL are a joke.

RSL is clearly ahead of them in terms of playing high quality games.

The SEL overall is better than the SM-liiga, BUT that is because of the players and not the teams.. Most teams seem to play backwards systems.

Game-breakers from Finland who have been 20 point scorers can come over and be stars, due to them being irrational and more aggressive in their playing style, they want to make things happen, because that's what is taught to them.

And in Finland... The teams played with extremely well-composed tactics... And choose their spots for creating chances. That's why Finland is one of the best places to find well-taught two-way players who play for their team and not the name on their back

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10-22-2006, 03:33 PM
  #75
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Hey people are your comparing leagues or what?

RSL best team Ak BArs is better than Timre,
But SEL bottom teams are much stronger than RSL's.
Amur, KS and other hardcore would be average teams in Alvenskan.

At this point RSL and SEL are about equal.
Yes Ak Bars, Avangard, Khimik are very good teams that would be leaders in SEL.
But Salavat, Sibir, MVD, Vityaz' are average teams(in SEL they would be in TOP 8), and Metallurg(ex-Malkin's team) and Locomotiv became much more weak than in previous years.

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