HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Why the NHL is sinking in the US?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-24-2003, 06:56 AM
  #101
Takeo
Registered User
 
Takeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 18,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SopelFan
Today was a prime example. No effort to show the Heritage Classic. 5 Channels chose College Football over a first ever outdoor hockey game and Gretzky's return to the ice. How do they expect to make new fans with this sort of publicity?
It's not about "choosing," it's about contractual obligation.

Takeo is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 07:11 AM
  #102
txpd
Registered User
 
txpd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 39,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SopelFan
This game wasn't planned this week.
no, but the contracts for the college football games go back years before the outdoor game was agreed on. additionally, this particular weekend is rivalry weekend with the classic matchups like ohio st/michigan, usc/ucla, washington/washington st, alabama/auburn and so on. the last weekend that abc/espn is going to be allowed to alter its contracted schedule with the ncaa.

txpd is online now  
Old
11-24-2003, 07:15 AM
  #103
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
How hard would it have been to have the game on Thursday, when ESPN shows hockey every week? I'm guessing it wouldn't have been too hard to do. Attendance certainly would not have suffered with over 700,000 requests for tickets, so that isn't a reason. They hosted Toronto on Thursday, so the Canadian rivalry/old timers game wouldn't have been affected.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 07:32 AM
  #104
Frenzy1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,793
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SopelFan
Today was a prime example. No effort to show the Heritage Classic. 5 Channels chose College Football over a first ever outdoor hockey game and Gretzky's return to the ice. How do they expect to make new fans with this sort of publicity?
1st. Hockeys is not a sport that the average person, who has never actually been to a game, can watch on TV and enjoy. Typical fans are former players or those who go to games.

2nd. College Football has a far larger fan base then does hockey, to say nothing of the OSU/UM and USC/UCLA games being played Saturday.

3rd. 2 Canadian teams were playing (Edmonton and Montreal).

The Best way to make new fans is to get them into an arena, where the environment will add to the game. Watching hockey on TV, getting to see only a section of what is going on the ice serface, can be a bit confusing to those who have never seen a game.

Football and basketball can be viewed on TV w/o missing anything as the play is often on the ball, but because of the speed of the puck and the amount of play that goes on away from it, the average fan will lose interest and wont be able to follow it. (Short version, you can watch a football game on tv and not miss anything, where you can't do this w/ hockey).

BTW, this is a direct attempt to provoke the US users on this forum. Don't be a jerk.

Frenzy1 is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 08:34 AM
  #105
Rabid Ranger
Imperiled Knight
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Abyss
Country: United States
Posts: 19,301
vCash: 500
What I find is sad is how so many are focusing on the lack of attention the Heritage Classic received in the U.S., when it was a HUGE success in the nation it was marketed to in the first place.

Rabid Ranger is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 09:09 AM
  #106
s7ark
LeonTheProfessional
 
s7ark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillToronto
Probably the most pathetic post I have ever seen. It reeks of jealousy and hate.

Your comment about dressing up our six year olds like Madonna, etc. is probably the most ridiculously immature comment i've ever heard here. You guys depend on us so much in terms of your economy it's not even funny. Why don't we just go ahead and stop trade with you guys? Let's see how well your country does then. Absolutely ridiculous that when anyone says anything about the only thing that matters to Canadiens (hockey), they go off on an anti-american tyrade. As much as I love most Canadiens, the few who rip on America need a lesson. And need to grow up. Nobody ever remembers Canada for anything in history except inventing hockey. That's it. So go ahead and rip on us. At least people know who we are and we aren't just known as "that country north of the US."

Yup good call we are entirely dependant on you guys. Guess our oil is of no use to you then. oh wait we are your major supplier, you wanna cut ties fine, but don't think it won't hurt you just as much.

s7ark is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 09:11 AM
  #107
NJD Jester
Registered User
 
NJD Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 960
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to NJD Jester
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger
What I find is sad is how so many are focusing on the lack of attention the Heritage Classic received in the U.S., when it was a HUGE success in the nation it was marketed to in the first place.
Blame the media. Fans were stoked for the game in the U.S. But there are too many sports editors at major newspapers who are hoping and praying the sport will just go away. Read the Washington Post's coverage of the event by that hack Rachel Nichols. In her preview piece, she spends half the article talking about the lockout and obstruction. What the **** does that have to do with the Heritage game? Nothing. But most editors welcome stories that bash the sport and its fans.

<JESTER>

NJD Jester is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 09:14 AM
  #108
NJD Jester
Registered User
 
NJD Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 960
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to NJD Jester
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
How hard would it have been to have the game on Thursday, when ESPN shows hockey every week? I'm guessing it wouldn't have been too hard to do. Attendance certainly would not have suffered with over 700,000 requests for tickets, so that isn't a reason. They hosted Toronto on Thursday, so the Canadian rivalry/old timers game wouldn't have been affected.
Then the issue becomes whether the NHL wants to take an event that became the focal point of most Canadian fans' weekend and move it to Thursday night to appease a network that doesn't want to show it in the first place.

<JESTER>

NJD Jester is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 09:48 AM
  #109
kenabnrmal
Registered User
 
kenabnrmal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: the beach or rink
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillToronto
Probably the most pathetic post I have ever seen. It reeks of jealousy and hate.

Your comment about dressing up our six year olds like Madonna, etc. is probably the most ridiculously immature comment i've ever heard here. You guys depend on us so much in terms of your economy it's not even funny. Why don't we just go ahead and stop trade with you guys? Let's see how well your country does then. Absolutely ridiculous that when anyone says anything about the only thing that matters to Canadiens (hockey), they go off on an anti-american tyrade. As much as I love most Canadiens, the few who rip on America need a lesson. And need to grow up. Nobody ever remembers Canada for anything in history except inventing hockey. That's it. So go ahead and rip on us. At least people know who we are and we aren't just known as "that country north of the US."
Its funny. You could have very easily and methodically picked apart his post as being ridiculously hate-filled. Instead you respond by doing the very thing he did. Using blanket statements devoid of any truth and knowledge to belittle the other's country. Nice.

I despise senseless anti-Americanism, but childish statements like "At least people know who we are and we aren't just known as 'that country north of the US.'" make it easy to see why threads like this one so often degenerate into ignorant country-bashing.

kenabnrmal is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 09:51 AM
  #110
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester
Then the issue becomes whether the NHL wants to take an event that became the focal point of most Canadian fans' weekend and move it to Thursday night to appease a network that doesn't want to show it in the first place.

<JESTER>
ESPN would want to show it. They had a very good amount of pre and post game coverage at espn.com. It absolutely would have gotten very good treatment. That they didn't show it was not because they didn't want to, but because they legally could not.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:05 AM
  #111
NJD Jester
Registered User
 
NJD Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 960
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to NJD Jester
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
ESPN would want to show it. They had a very good amount of pre and post game coverage at espn.com. It absolutely would have gotten very good treatment. That they didn't show it was not because they didn't want to, but because they legally could not.


Seriously...do you think an exhibition hockey game between two Canadian teams, or a regular season hockey game between two Canadian teams, is ever getting on the air on ESPN?

Pop quiz: How many times do Canadian NHL teams appear on either ESPN or ESPN2 this season, according to the 2003-04 TV schedule?

Answer: 3.

Question No. 2: How many Canadian team vs. Canadian team games are there on ESPN/ESPN2/ABC's schedule?

Answer: Zero.

The reason? ESPN doesn't get any ratings from Canada. They would be losing half the audience by putting on several US/Canada games, and nearly the entire audience for Canada vs. Canada games.

<JESTER>

NJD Jester is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:13 AM
  #112
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester


Seriously...do you think an exhibition hockey game between two Canadian teams, or a regular season hockey game between two Canadian teams, is ever getting on the air on ESPN?

Pop quiz: How many times do Canadian NHL teams appear on either ESPN or ESPN2 this season, according to the 2003-04 TV schedule?

Answer: 3.

Question No. 2: How many Canadian team vs. Canadian team games are there on ESPN/ESPN2/ABC's schedule?

Answer: Zero.

The reason? ESPN doesn't get any ratings from Canada. They would be losing half the audience by putting on several US/Canada games, and nearly the entire audience for Canada vs. Canada games.

<JESTER>
Sigh. Did you not see the coverage that espn.com gave the event? It was all over the place. They absolutely would have shown it. Just because ESPN is American and the two teams aren't doesn't mean squat in the context of this game.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:13 AM
  #113
guinness
those were the days
 
guinness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Clovis, California
Country: United States
Posts: 12,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
ESPN would want to show it. They had a very good amount of pre and post game coverage at espn.com. It absolutely would have gotten very good treatment. That they didn't show it was not because they didn't want to, but because they legally could not.
Unless your just being sarcastic...

ESPN would rather show pool or college cheerleading than 2 Canadian teams, the Oilers being a team that most non-hockey fans only know about because of Gretzky, if at all. The only reason the game was getting any kind of publicity in the US was because of the outdoor gimmick factor. Stage Detroit vs Coloado in Coors Field or Tiger Stadium or the Rags vs Philly outdoors in NY, then ESPN would help schedule it on TV.

guinness is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:15 AM
  #114
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillToronto
Right. Don't be pissed just because the only people of any influence from Canada are Celine Dion and Avril Lavigne. It's not my fault we actually have popular people who get noticed.
Like Kobe Bryant and company?

Please. I could care less if Canadians weren't in the American public eye. It doesn't bother me. But to use American media as a barometer for what's actually important is just retarded. Jealously? No. My nickname isn't "KillAmerica" after all.

Stephen is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:18 AM
  #115
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Unless your just being sarcastic...

ESPN would rather show pool or college cheerleading than 2 Canadian teams, the Oilers being a team that most non-hockey fans only know about because of Gretzky, if at all.
Well, I can't argue with that logic. :


Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
The only reason the game was getting any kind of publicity in the US was because of the outdoor gimmick factor.
Hello! The only reason the game got the publicity it did in Canada was because it was outdoors! Otherwise it would have been just another game!

Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Stage Detroit vs Coloado in Coors Field or Tiger Stadium or the Rags vs Philly outdoors in NY, then ESPN would help schedule it on TV.
Not if the game is conflicting with their NCAA football contracts that they shelled out hundreds of millions of dollars for and are legal contractually bound to.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:27 AM
  #116
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SopelFan
Hence why the NHL loses huge amounts of money a year. They are putting 24 teams in a country who puts every sport ahead of hockey.
Just make a couple of points here.

1) The United States doesn't put any sport before hockey. Fans put other sports before hockey.
2) 99 1/2% of the population of the US haven't played hockey. Almost everyone down here played baseball, basketball & football growing up.
3) They move teams where there is a large enough economic base to support a team.
4) You're statement above makes it sound like the NHL would make a ton of money if it was just the Canadian teams involved. The league loses money because players make 75-80% of total revenues, not that teams are located in a particular country.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:38 AM
  #117
West
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatny Spears
Who scheduled this game? Did the Oilers specifically request this weekend or was it just the date the NHL gave them? Regardless, if exposure in the U.S. was a consideration at all, the choice of a date was brutal. It wasn't just a college football weekend, it was RIVALRY weekend. Ohio State/Michigan, Auburn/Alabama, USC/UCLA, the list goes on ... Forget it, the Heritage Classic never had a chance on this date.
If they meant to sell it to the states they would have made sure that at least one team was from the US. It was obviously something that the CBS was interested in doing and promoting and that's why both the teams were Canadian.

West is online now  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:43 AM
  #118
guinness
those were the days
 
guinness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Clovis, California
Country: United States
Posts: 12,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Well, I can't argue with that logic. :
Well before I moved to the Detroit area about 15 years ago, that's all I knew about hockey was Gretzky, I grew up playing baseball and football, hockey was the furthest thing from my mind. It's changed now in my hometown, just because of the Wings, but if the NHL wants to go after the casual fan, especially in non-traditional market, it would have to promote something besides Edmonton vs Montreal, I only cared to watch the game because of the gimmick factor, I don't care about Edmonton or Montreal.

Quote:
Not if the game is conflicting with their NCAA football contracts that they shelled out hundreds of millions of dollars for and are legal contractually bound to.
Just schedule the game for a Wednesday or Sunday, those are the days ESPN usually shows their NHL games, the fans will still come out to watch in person.

guinness is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:44 AM
  #119
Bure9*
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 1,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD Jester
One more thing: the NHL is trying to market the sport to minority fans (or as you call them, "inner-city/poorer" kids. The league has a program in place that promotes hockey in urban areas, and it trots out Willie O'Ree any chance it gets to promote it. But the bottom line remains that minority fans have a hard time relating to a league that only has about a dozen black and latino players. In time, that will change. Right now, it's a huge problem in marketing the sport in the United States.

<JESTER>
Last time I checked white people are still the majority in this country and if anything is to become popular white people will have to be responsible for doing that. By your argument soccer should be popular in the US since is represents all races very well, but it isn't.

If you are right about more minorities not watching hockey because their groups are under-represented I think its pretty racist. How come white people don't have a hard time watching basketball or football, then? And for an example, if I were to say that I don't listen to rap because its black music, I would immediately be called a racist.

Bure9* is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:46 AM
  #120
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Just schedule the game for a Wednesday or Sunday, those are the days ESPN usually shows their NHL games, the fans will still come out to watch in person.
It's Thursday night on ESPN (but it used to be Wednesdays). Sundays after the NFL is over. It's not ESPN's fault. If the NHL really wanted this game to get US coverage, they would have had Edmonton schedule it for a Thursday night, or later in the season on a Sunday night. But they didn't. We should be complaining about the league, not ESPN.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:50 AM
  #121
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Of course, if we are talking about class and respect, NFL and NBA players have enough of it for each other to gather together on the field after the game, shake hands, and congratulate the other team. Can't say the same for NHL and MLB players.
I was referring to how they represent their sport (and themselves) off the ice.

Trottier is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:51 AM
  #122
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillToronto
Right. Don't be pissed just because the only people of any influence from Canada are Celine Dion and Avril Lavigne. It's not my fault we actually have popular people who get noticed.
No need for ugly jingoism, don't you think?

Trottier is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:52 AM
  #123
islandnucker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: ladysmith
Country: Poland
Posts: 2,025
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to islandnucker
I have the ultimate answer, there are just too many things to do now a days.

Computers for the young kids, tonnes of different clubs to join, classes that people can take, etc......

There is just not enough hours in one day to do all the stuff that there is to do.

islandnucker is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:54 AM
  #124
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
Don't Assume things, cuz you make an Ass out of U and ME. Winnipeg and Quebec could have survived if Bettman let them stay, but all bettman sees is Green. There are some teams in the nhl that have had poor attendance since their first year in the NHL...yet they stay.

I could care less about what Americans think about Hockey, in Canada itst he #1 sport, thats all that matters, if NFL is #1 in US...thats good for them, that means they enjoy football more, we have a history with Hockey...which is why we have it as the #1 sport in our nation.
I think that you understate the issues that WINN & Quebec were having 7-10 years ago. The salary structure in the NHL has probably DOUBLED in since those teams left. I don't think there was enough corporate support and there were probably issues with the the amount that the local fans could afford to pay for tickets.

I agree that a part of the thought process was to increase the "footprint" of teams in the US to increase the TV contract.

Beukeboom Fan is offline  
Old
11-24-2003, 11:56 AM
  #125
Ghost of Dale Hunter
Registered User
 
Ghost of Dale Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buffalo
Country: United States
Posts: 1,374
vCash: 500
Memo to NHL fans in Canada:

WE did not move the Jets or Nordiques. American Franchises have not been exempt from troubles Minnasota and nearly Buffalo last year, both places that ardently support their franchises since their inception.

The finances of this league are horrible. While you may resent the fact that the US networks have such a say in the NHL it is a fact of life.

Bettman has intentionally tied the leagues fate to ESPN and ESPN has a obligation to its investors to make money.

TV money is from advertising. So why blame ESPN.Blame Bettman, he sold hockeys soul.

The Heritage Classic was exactly that a game to honor the CANADIAN heritage of Hockey and was set up for Hockey Night in Canada. It was a gigantic success.

Hockey is a regional sport in the US. The interest is based upon localiites developing ties withtheir team. Can you really expect people from New Mexico to give a damn about the Ottawa Senators. I kind of view it as similar to how many Canadians feel about the San Diego Padres, if they are readily available, great. But other that , why does John Q. Canadian care about the Padres.Emotional ties make the game and vice versa, the NHL fails in that in most places outside NHL cities right now.

College football on the other hand is a readily available product with NATIONAL Interest. Everyone knows who Notre Dame is, Every one knows who Nebraska is, Ohio State, etc. For those of you who criticize the NFL or College football game. You are simply being as ignorant as the US people who criticize hockey in Canada.
It is hard to really spend large amounts of money on something you are NOT emotionally invested in. That is hockey for a lot of Americans.

Actually, considering the lack of national passion for hockey i think it is stunning how well supported the vast majority of American NHL teams are.

Especially with the lack of quality play in the NHL right now. When Fox started the US Hockey 'revolution' remeber Hockey was a high scoring, physical sport in which fighting had a significant part.

Now you have a low scoring, physical sport where concussions are prevalent, clutching and grabbing is king and fighting is shunned and almost a side show. Call me crazy, but making the game better for TV actually sacrificied alot of what TV saw in the game.

If people in Canada and US are serious about hockey they have to do a few things immediately.

1) Improve quality of play.
2) Bring back the flowing, agressive play that brought interest in Hockey to its peak a few years ago, back.
3) Break the Union, get money under control.
4) Honor the Hockey heritage in areas of US where it has a heritage, Boston , Buffalo, Minnasota,NY Chicago and highlight that to make it appealing to other locales.
5) Continue to Honor the Canadian Heritage as Canadian kids and Canadian hockey programs still are the backbone of this league and hockey in general.
6) Ease Bettman on out and bring a hockey traditionalist in to resell the game to its e constituancy.

I am no genius, but I love hockey an it is a shame where it is now.

Ghost of Dale Hunter is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.