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10-27-2006, 10:23 AM
  #1
coolguy21415
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Two-ref system

In light of last night's game, many people feel that a one-referee system may have resulted in a more even game. What does everyone think?

I feel that one referee would open the game back up to obstruction and we'd see an increase in missed calls, which then would start a snowball effect to increased stickwork, etc.

The other option I've thought of, is having linesman be able to call penalties, however that makes training for refs a very difficult proposition, as they can't be linesmen first, to learn.

[edit: let's try to avoid talking about last night's game in specifics, try to keep the discussion generally toward the officiating]

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10-27-2006, 10:27 AM
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Keep it the way it is. Because fact is, too few penalties people get pissed, too many people get pissed. For the habs (who save more goals on the PK then in even strength) it's better to just have it the way it is for now since were good on both PK and PP. It's better for our team this way. The more hockey leads in the more penalties direction, the more that fast teams like MTL will improve. Especially when you have the best PK in the league and one of the best PP's.

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10-27-2006, 10:28 AM
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Linesmen could be removed from the game nowaday. The technology is there. It is possible to track the location of the puck and the players using the appropriate equipment; it would require some will from the league (and I don't think the referee's union would like it at all), but that would remove two guys from the ice and make the offside calls (and potentially other types of rulling) instantenous and error-free.

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10-27-2006, 10:37 AM
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Blind Gardien
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"In theory" two referees *should* be able to do a better job of handling the game, seeing all the calls, etc. It should be a no-brainer. There shouldn't be any questions of different refs having different standards within the same game, or of one trying to hog the spotlight or step on the other guy's toes, or even defer respectfully to the other guy's venerable wisdom and experience. It shouldn't be like that.

But somehow it often appears that it is precisely like that, doesn't it?

Still, I don't think the solution is to go back to the one-ref system. That's a cop-out. The real solution is just to get all the refs on the same page, CONSISTENTLY. It shouldn't be rocket surgery. I know it's a fast game and it's hard to see everything, but I still just can't understand how the elite of the elite in the professional world of hockey officiating can continue to have such issues with consistency and can continue to leave themselves open to questions like all the stuff in my first paragraph above. It boggles my mind sometimes. It also boggles my mind how the NHL lets it continue to happen.

... unless... well, before yesterday's game we were all complaining about how hard it was to hate anybody on the B's, how stunted the rivalry was becoming, etc... maybe a bit of the good ol' fashioned WWF-style officiating controversies actually helps crank up the fan interest, gets the blood boiling more...? You'd like to think this was an impossibility with the NHL, but it gets increasingly difficult sometimes to figure out just how they keep letting things slide with their officiating troubles, so...

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10-27-2006, 10:44 AM
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I hate the 2 referee system. It is just way too inconsistent. Sure with a 1 ref system he may miss some calls, but he will be consistent with his calls.

And don't even start me one the linesmen, they don't even seem to know what an offside is anymore. It's unbelievable the number of offsides they miss, and non-offsides that they do call.

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10-27-2006, 10:49 AM
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I recall reading that every two-ref pairing is a veteran and a younger ref. Do you think that the younger guy doesn't call things and yields to the judgement of the more senior ref? (Not that it was a penalty) In the situation last night where there was a questionable no-call in one end, and then immediately a (albeit less questionable) call in the other end, could that be the result of a younger ref no-calling a play, yielding to the other ref who might not have been able to see?

I'm of the opinion that when someone tries to deke THROUGH you, as Kessel tried to on Komi, it's hard to call obstruction. At the time I remember thinking he (Kessel) was trying to draw a penalty, and Komi did a good job of at least trying to get out of the way. However there are clearly different interpretations of that play.

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10-27-2006, 10:52 AM
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As much as it sounds feasible, in reality it's just about impossible. You'd end up with an automatic system that would get it right just about the same as the linesmen, if not worse. The rules would have to change in order to install such an automatic system. Presumably each player would wear a beacon... ahh it's too much effort to detail why it wouldn't work better than linesmen.

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10-27-2006, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
I recall reading that every two-ref pairing is a veteran and a younger ref. Do you think that the younger guy doesn't call things and yields to the judgement of the more senior ref? (Not that it was a penalty) In the situation last night where there was a questionable no-call in one end, and then immediately a (albeit less questionable) call in the other end, could that be the result of a younger ref no-calling a play, yielding to the other ref who might not have been able to see?
Sometimes it seems like the younger guy yields to the judgement of the more senior ref, other times it looks like maybe the younger guy is trying to step out of the shadow of the more senior guy. Who can say? You'd like to think that neither would be the case, that at this level they're all consummate professionals who only try to do their job and just make the calls they see, when they see them, regardless of all other considerations. There shouldn't be any need for conspiracy theories or second-guessing on our part. But when the product that we actually see on the ice looks so messy, who can blame us for occasionally putting on our tinfoil helmets and coming up with such silly speculations?
Quote:
I'm of the opinion that when someone tries to deke THROUGH you, as Kessel tried to on Komi, it's hard to call obstruction. At the time I remember thinking he (Kessel) was trying to draw a penalty, and Komi did a good job of at least trying to get out of the way. However there are clearly different interpretations of that play.
And then of course players do go down so easily nowadays too, it's even harder for the refs to do their jobs even if they are trying dilligently to conform to the actual ideal standards we'd like to see. Well, it's good that we have a few timeless mysteries in the universe, I guess, it'd get kinda boring if we had the answer to everything.

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10-27-2006, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
And then of course players do go down so easily nowadays too, it's even harder for the refs to do their jobs even if they are trying dilligently to conform to the actual ideal standards we'd like to see. Well, it's good that we have a few timeless mysteries in the universe, I guess, it'd get kinda boring if we had the answer to everything.
Well there is one easy way to fix that and that is to call the diving penalty. Don't call hooking and a diving that does nothing. But if the refs start calling just the diving penalty, it will stop.

Of course, since this is at the ref's discretion there will be a lot of hubbub about it. Which leads us back to having 2 different referees on the ice who have 2 different ideas of diving. So it can't really work.

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10-27-2006, 12:03 PM
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Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
Well there is one easy way to fix that and that is to call the diving penalty. Don't call hooking and a diving that does nothing. But if the refs start calling just the diving penalty, it will stop.

Of course, since this is at the ref's discretion there will be a lot of hubbub about it. Which leads us back to having 2 different referees on the ice who have 2 different ideas of diving. So it can't really work.
Except how should two different ideas of diving ultimately be problematic? Assuming that one ref sees at least 90% of the same game as the other ref (otherwise 1 ref couldn't even be an option) then, as long as they aren't dueling eachother or deferring to eachother, why should it matter if they have somewhat different standards? One guy sees 90% of what he thinks are dives, the other guy sees 90% of what he thinks are dives, and even if they don't have EXACTLY the same interpretations (there still shouldn't be that much room for difference), then the net result should be that we get more dives caught, which should be what we want.

And if the differences in their interpretations are SO big, then that's really another problem for the head office, IMO. Again, you don't cop-out of the two ref system on the basis of two refs having different "styles" or viewpoints. They're supposed to have THE SAME style and viewpoint!!! And if they don't, the league has to fix that problem and get everybody as nearly on the same page as possible, not throw their hands in the air and bail out on it.

You hear plenty of snippets about how this is indeed what the officiating dept. is working to achieve... going through tapes, showing examples, evaluating officials' performances, etc, etc. One hopes that nobody is losing focus on that effort, I don't see why it shouldn't work. If there are individuals who just can't seem to accept assimilation into a Borg-like vanilla officiating standard (presumably the higher profile veterans, right?) then get out your axes. They aren't the game, nobody pays to see them or will miss them if they're gone. The league wants to make changes. We're seeing the enforcer class becoming extinct, maybe seeing a few slower D becoming extinct, maybe there were a few "equipment-enhanced" goalies who will become extinct. Who's spending time crying for them? Why would the on-ice officials expect less? If they can't be assimilated, can't keep up with the changes, they have to go. No need to make excuses for them.

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10-27-2006, 12:41 PM
  #11
hendextall
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I agree with you that the 2 man system can work and hopefully it does get better because they won't be going back to the 1 man system. But the consistent inconsistent calls really irritates me as I'm sure it does the players. They seem to be having a tough time know what is and isn't a penalty anymore. It would be nice if it could be just black and white, but unfortunately it isn't. I just feel more comfort in having 1 referee that makes the calls consistently with how he has been calling them the whole game.

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