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Canada vs Soviet Union

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Old
10-28-2006, 06:36 AM
  #1
Reks
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Canada vs Soviet Union

Who was better?
http://www.geocities.com/canadavsrussia/stats.html

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10-28-2006, 07:15 AM
  #2
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That are some nice inerpretations.
I admit I was a huge fan of Soviet hockey. Rarely saw anything that was so aesthetic.
It is definately hard to find out who was the best. If you read previous discussions even on this page wou will find out that there is a hefty discussion going on right now.
IMO I think they are pretty much en par. I usually tend to give the edge to the Soviets as well but the more I read the more I have to admit that they were not far and away better. But they certainly could give the Canadian big ones a run for their money.

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10-28-2006, 07:16 AM
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even. lock thread.

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Old
10-28-2006, 07:59 AM
  #4
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comrades were decent runners-up.

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10-28-2006, 08:38 AM
  #5
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Soviet Union was clearly better.

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Old
10-28-2006, 10:15 AM
  #6
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the soviet union was far better. One thing that seems to get overlooked is how many of these super seires and canada cups and world cups were all played here in North america on the small rinks with the home crowd. I've seen many a super series where team russia is playing one or two days after comming over.
look at how well team canada did at the WC when they were out of there Comfort zone

1977 WC (World Championships) USSR 11- Canada 1
USSR 8- Canada 1
1978 WC USSR 4- Canada 2
USSR 5- Canada 1
1979 WC USSR 5- Canada 2
USSR 9- Canada 2
1981 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 4- Canada 4
1982 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 6- Canada 4
1983 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 8- Canada 2
1985 WC USSR 9- Canada 1
USSR 1- Canada 3
1986 WC USSR 4- Canada 0
USSR 7- Canada 4
1987 WC USSR 3- Canada 2
USSR 0- Canada 0
1989 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 5- Canada 3
1990 WC USSR 3- Canada 3
USSR 7- Canada 1
1991 WC USSR 5- Canada 3
USSR 3- Canada 3

THATS TOTAL domination!!!

When canada is taken out of there comfort zone taken away from there style of play what happens???

I think that factor is rarely looked at.

also i want to say that So many of the skill video's you see today sanctioned by Canada and usa hockey are Skill trainings that were being done by the soviets in the 70's and earlier. I have lots of old footage from 60's 70's were the soviets worked on off ice trainings, pylometrics, stickhandeling tricks, useing there skates to kick the puck.
all these thing were foreign to the North american way but now there all being used.

Winner by far and away team CCCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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10-28-2006, 10:26 AM
  #7
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I think the Soviets played better as a team. Canada had to a man more talent and depth IMO, but the Soviets had much better chemistry and conditioning. Perhaps it has to do with the amount of prep time the Soviets had in comparison to their Canadian counterparts. It would be nice to see that 76 or 87 team play and practice together for a year, and then have an 8 game series against the Soviets. 4 games on the small ice in NA and 4 games on the big ice in the Soviet Union.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 10-28-2006 at 11:42 AM.
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Old
10-28-2006, 10:36 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAce View Post

Winner by far and away team CCCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take a look at Canadas rosters in those second tier tournaments and if that proves some soviet superiority then keep on screaming.

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10-28-2006, 11:09 AM
  #9
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Canada no sweat.The Soviets managed to keep it close due to playing and training as a collective unit year round,give the Canadian team that option and they beat the Soviets 7 times out of ten,maybe 8.The Soviets were never as close to Canada as they appeared and now with that artificial advantage now longer at their disposal the cats out of the bag and the gap between the 2 countries has widened considerably.Sure,they'll win some games against Canada now and then but they'll be on the losing end of more of them when the two countries meet.it would have been the same thing back then if Canada built National teams the same way.

As of right now it would be hard to rank Russian hockey on the international stage any better then number 5 in the world.Canada,The Czech Republic,Sweden and Finland are currently better then them from top to bottom.

The Soviets were over-rated due to the times,they were second best but not as close to Canada as the second best team as they appeared.The Soviet Unions teams were like a magicians trick that everybody has figured out now.

They've been brought down to proper size now that things have evened out in terms of the combination of talent/team preparation time(which is now even for all teams).

Definately on the losing end of any Canada-Soviet Union debate.

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Old
10-28-2006, 11:38 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAce View Post
the soviet union was far better. One thing that seems to get overlooked is how many of these super seires and canada cups and world cups were all played here in North america on the small rinks with the home crowd. I've seen many a super series where team russia is playing one or two days after comming over.
look at how well team canada did at the WC when they were out of there Comfort zone

1977 WC (World Championships) USSR 11- Canada 1
USSR 8- Canada 1
1978 WC USSR 4- Canada 2
USSR 5- Canada 1
1979 WC USSR 5- Canada 2
USSR 9- Canada 2
1981 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 4- Canada 4
1982 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 6- Canada 4
1983 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 8- Canada 2
1985 WC USSR 9- Canada 1
USSR 1- Canada 3
1986 WC USSR 4- Canada 0
USSR 7- Canada 4
1987 WC USSR 3- Canada 2
USSR 0- Canada 0
1989 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 5- Canada 3
1990 WC USSR 3- Canada 3
USSR 7- Canada 1
1991 WC USSR 5- Canada 3
USSR 3- Canada 3

THATS TOTAL domination!!!

When canada is taken out of there comfort zone taken away from there style of play what happens???

I think that factor is rarely looked at.

also i want to say that So many of the skill video's you see today sanctioned by Canada and usa hockey are Skill trainings that were being done by the soviets in the 70's and earlier. I have lots of old footage from 60's 70's were the soviets worked on off ice trainings, pylometrics, stickhandeling tricks, useing there skates to kick the puck.
all these thing were foreign to the North american way but now there all being used.

Winner by far and away team CCCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you enlighten us as to who was on those Canadian teams in the World Championships? Or are you too afraid, because you know it'll destroy your argument? You rarely saw Canada's best players from 77 to 91 in the World championships (Gretzky, Mario, LaFleur, Bossy, Trottier, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson, Coffey, etc.,) because they were still the most important tournament in hockey: the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Reality is that there is a huge adjustment from international ice to NHL ice, and vice versa. You not only have to adjust to the ice size, and the nuances with each, but the style of play associated with each. You also have the travel factor: North American players going to the world championship, or Europeans going to the Canada Cup, had to deal with long flights, jet lags, etc.

In the end, we can only judge by results from true best-on-best tournaments. And Canada has the better record that the USSR in the best-on-best tournaments. You can cite whatever excuses you want, it's reality. I think Psycho Papa Joe said it best when he said that Canada had the better talent and certainly the better depth (the USSR's top team had no problem keeping up with Canada, but Canada's B team would have beaten USSR's B team, and you would have definitely seen a difference with Canada's C team and the USSR's C team) while the USSR had the benefit of playing together consistently. Trust me, chemistry makes a world of difference, especially in a short tournament.

In the only tournament played in both Canada and the USSR, Canada won by the skin of their teeth. Canadian and Soviet fans can cite all the excuses they want, but reality is that Canada did win. I think the closeness of that series is evidence of how close the top talent between the two countries really was. But Canada was better.

One other thing to note: the World Junior Hockey Championship. It is the only true annual best-on-best tournament. From the introduction of Canada's Program of Excellence for the 1981-82 tournament to the break-up of the USSR in 1992, each country won five gold medals. (Including the CIS gold medal, as they started the tournament as the USSR. Canada would have won gold if not for the punch up at Piestany in 1987, but reality is they didn't, so you can't count it). Both countries won two gold in North America and three in Europe. Canada, of course, has enjoyed much greater success than Russia at the WJC since the break-up of the Soviet Union. (Seven gold medals to three).

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10-28-2006, 11:46 AM
  #11
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for the most part most of those tournaments it was Soviet Pro's vs Canadian Amateurs.

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10-28-2006, 11:50 AM
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I think the above site itself is amazing and actually has a fair answer:
"Well, as it stands, when Team Canada played the USSR in the best-on-best format (from the red section above), the final stats prove that we can call the matches "a draw" if we are to consider "who was best?" However, in my opinion, to break this dead-lock we can use the previous World Championships/ Exhibition games as the determining factor for "who was best?" Yes fellow Canadians, when all is said-and-done, we have to give the Soviets the nod."

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Old
10-28-2006, 12:23 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reks View Post
I think the above site itself is amazing and actually has a fair answer:
"Well, as it stands, when Team Canada played the USSR in the best-on-best format (from the red section above), the final stats prove that we can call the matches "a draw" if we are to consider "who was best?" However, in my opinion, to break this dead-lock we can use the previous World Championships/ Exhibition games as the determining factor for "who was best?" Yes fellow Canadians, when all is said-and-done, we have to give the Soviets the nod."
In the first four Canada Cups (the USSR hockey program was in total disarray by the time 1991 rolled around) Canada won three and the USSR won one. Cnaada also won in 1972. I wouldn't call it a draw. 1972 was very close. The 1984 semi-final went to overtime. All three games in 1987 were decided by a goal. It's very close, but Canada own all three tournaments.

And if you want to talk about who was better in best-on-best tournaments, don't use non-best-on-best tournaments or exhibition games as your evidence. The 1982-1992 WJC tournaments are a more relevant indicator than the Worlds.

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10-28-2006, 12:42 PM
  #14
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Here is my opinion (strictly personal) what should be count as "the best on the best format"

Summit Series 72
Challenge Cup 79
Canada Cup 81
Canada Cup 84
Rendez Vous 87
Canada Cup 87


I wouldn't count 1974 Summit Series since Canada was represented by WHA players.

I wouldn't count 1976 Canada Cup either. There was a big conflict between an old Russian coach Kulagin (whose team won Olympics that year) and a new one (Tikhonov). As a result, the Soviets were represented by a mixture of their "A" and "B" teams: no Petrov, Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Yakushev, Lyapkin, Shadrin, Anisin, Tsygankov.

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10-28-2006, 12:47 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAce View Post
the soviet union was far better. One thing that seems to get overlooked is how many of these super seires and canada cups and world cups were all played here in North america on the small rinks with the home crowd. I've seen many a super series where team russia is playing one or two days after comming over.
look at how well team canada did at the WC when they were out of there Comfort zone

1977 WC (World Championships) USSR 11- Canada 1
USSR 8- Canada 1
1978 WC USSR 4- Canada 2
USSR 5- Canada 1
1979 WC USSR 5- Canada 2
USSR 9- Canada 2
1981 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 4- Canada 4
1982 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 6- Canada 4
1983 WC USSR 8- Canada 2
USSR 8- Canada 2
1985 WC USSR 9- Canada 1
USSR 1- Canada 3
1986 WC USSR 4- Canada 0
USSR 7- Canada 4
1987 WC USSR 3- Canada 2
USSR 0- Canada 0
1989 WC USSR 4- Canada 3
USSR 5- Canada 3
1990 WC USSR 3- Canada 3
USSR 7- Canada 1
1991 WC USSR 5- Canada 3
USSR 3- Canada 3

THATS TOTAL domination!!!

When canada is taken out of there comfort zone taken away from there style of play what happens???

I think that factor is rarely looked at.

also i want to say that So many of the skill video's you see today sanctioned by Canada and usa hockey are Skill trainings that were being done by the soviets in the 70's and earlier. I have lots of old footage from 60's 70's were the soviets worked on off ice trainings, pylometrics, stickhandeling tricks, useing there skates to kick the puck.
all these thing were foreign to the North american way but now there all being used.

Winner by far and away team CCCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Worst argument ever on this topic.

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Old
10-28-2006, 01:22 PM
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I think Canada assembled a good team for 1982 World Championship. Gretzky, Lafleur, Hawerchuk were among that roster. The Soviets really deserved some credit for beating them up twice.

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10-28-2006, 01:41 PM
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THE World championships are just that the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Champions of the WORLD!!! It's not some silly little cup called stanley.

It's the typical Canadian way of thinking "If it's not played our way in our back yard by our rules were not playing"""

That Canada chosses not to send it's best to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS and instead play for there little cup in there own backyard for fear of getting made fool's of on the internatioanl scene is there choice.

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10-28-2006, 01:46 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAce View Post
THE World championships are just that the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Champions of the WORLD!!! It's not some silly little cup called stanley.

It's the typical Canadian way of thinking "If it's not played our way in our back yard by our rules were not playing"""

That Canada chosses not to send it's best to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS and instead play for there little cup in there own backyard for fear of getting made fool's of on the internatioanl scene is there choice.


Nice try. I hope no one bites on this one because you're clearly just trying to cause a stir.

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Old
10-28-2006, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAce View Post
THE World championships are just that the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Champions of the WORLD!!! It's not some silly little cup called stanley.

It's the typical Canadian way of thinking "If it's not played our way in our back yard by our rules were not playing"""

That Canada chosses not to send it's best to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS and instead play for there little cup in there own backyard for fear of getting made fool's of on the internatioanl scene is there choice.
I don't know if you missed this one, but most of the world's best, (when not threatened with the spectre of being shot for defection ) choose to play in the league which has its playoffs during the spring. When the USSR was dominating weak Canadian entries, it was because their players HAD to be there, not because they didn't WANT to be earning big bucks and eating good food in the NHL.

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Old
10-28-2006, 02:31 PM
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We're seeing now what's happening when the deck isn't completely stacked in Russia's favor.

How many tournaments without gold at the senior level since the mid-90's?

How many medals total?

Bring on the excuses.

Now that they're in the same boat as everyone else, having to assemble a team at the last minute, they're hardly dominant. I'd say they might be ahead of Slovakia and maybe the States but that'd be about it among the Big 7.


Last edited by NyQuil: 10-28-2006 at 02:36 PM.
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Old
10-28-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
We're seeing now what's happening when the deck isn't completely stacked in Russia's favor.

How many tournaments without gold at the senior level since the mid-90's?

How many medals total?

Bring on the excuses.

Now that they're in the same boat as everyone else, having to assemble a team at the last minute, they're hardly dominant. I'd say they might be ahead of Slovakia and maybe the States but that'd be about it among the Big 7.
subject is Canada vs Soviet Union ...

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Old
10-28-2006, 02:59 PM
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I wouldn't count 1974 Summit Series since Canada was represented by WHA players.
Errr ... ok. But in 1972 Canada was represented by NHL players. So why should it count?

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10-28-2006, 03:07 PM
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Errr ... ok. But in 1972 Canada was represented by NHL players. So why should it count?
Just because all best Canadian players played in NHL in 1972 (Hull is the only exception).

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10-28-2006, 03:07 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
Errr ... ok. But in 1972 Canada was represented by NHL players. So why should it count?
Well if you had bothered to read/quote the whole post, and had an inkling of understanding of hockey history, you would understand.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 10-28-2006 at 03:16 PM.
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10-28-2006, 03:12 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
Errr ... ok. But in 1972 Canada was represented by NHL players. So why should it count?
Because relative to the NHL the WHA wasn't as good of a league - sure they had some big name stars such as Hull and a past his prime Howe but really the tallent in the NHL was far better than anything that the WHA had.

The World Championships of the 60s-90s were really a test as to which team was the best in Europe. Canada during the 60s didn't even send a team due to corruption (a fact some gloss over) and even when they did send a team of amatures it wasn't the huge losses that many imply that it was.

In terms of tallent and training the Soviet Union is likely the better team. But in terms of guts, determination and heart the Canadian team is vastly superior to that of the Soviet Union. Hockey is part of the culture in Canada - in Russia from when I was there it wasn't the same.

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