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Canada vs Soviet Union

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Old
10-29-2006, 01:39 AM
  #51
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I would say Canada is the best between the two. First, you have to look at the best on best tournaments. The Canada Cups and the Summit Series Canada won four times where the Soviets only won once. If you want to include the Rendez Vous 87' and the Challenge Cup even though some of the players on the teams weren't Canadian, Canada still wins 4-2.

The Summit Series of 74' shouldn't be counted. The WHA was a worse league compared to the NHL. Furthermore, the World Championships
If you are not counting the 74 series, why are you counting the Canada Cup of 76?
What about the World Championships when Canada did send good teams?
So if you want "best on best", it is
Canada: 72 series, 84 Canada Cup, 87 Canada Cup - 7W, 5L.
USSR: 79 Challenge Cup, 81 Canada Cup, World Championship of 82 (or 89) - 5W, 2L.
And the times Canada won, it was very close and controversial.
So USSR wins.

As for Russia vs. Canada, Canada won a game in 1996 (and that is thanks to the referee not allowing two Russian goals) and Russia won during the last Olympics.

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10-29-2006, 02:08 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
If you are not counting the 74 series, why are you counting the Canada Cup of 76?
Because comrades played against WHA players in 74, not the NHL players. WHA all stars is hardly team Canada. Why shouldn´t Canada Cup 76 count?

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10-29-2006, 05:57 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Karamahti View Post
Because comrades played against WHA players in 74, not the NHL players. WHA all stars is hardly team Canada. Why shouldn´t Canada Cup 76 count?
I have already explained somewhere earlier at this thread why we should't count Canada Cup 76. Of course, it's up to you whether you take those arguments or not.

By the way, the statement that Soviets played all year together as a team is simply wrong though it was (it is) a common believe in North America. There were 12 teams in Soviet Super League. Top teams were Red Army Team, Dynamo Moscow, Spartak, Soviet Wings. From the middle of October till the end of May they played 40-42 games each. The best team recieved Soviet Union Super League Cup (or whatever it was called).

Soviet National Team was build up from top clubs palyers: usually 10-11 players from Red Army Team, 5 players from Dynamo Moscow, 5-6 players from other teams.

There was one month break for World Championship (or Olympics) each year when Soviet National Team was really trained as a team. There were also shorter breaks for other International Competitions.

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10-29-2006, 07:02 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Swedish?.............why the love?They do you any favours?They respect your hockey?

No..............The Russians had more of an advantage,results show that,you want to ******** about results? is that your style?

I don't deal in cliche phrases thrown off the cuff bigotry remarks (like some folks) when cornered against the walll.............i just point people to what's going on and when.

But you don't want to accept it,as a Swedish fan.................it's weird for sure.

But it takes a lot of different people to make up the world and that's O.K.

One more time.....How's their record in big level tournaments against Canada since the break-up of the Soviet Union?And even if you think that is not the issue here.......considering that in best on best tournaments Canada was just as good if not better without the advantages The Soviets had at that time, how do you think we would have fared out if we had built teams as they had?

What's the excuse when results show clearly obvious patterns?

I really don't mind that you think Russsia is/was better,that's your call if not very honest.

But this bigot stuff,what did i do for this continued bogus label? Call Russian fans out on their views?

every thread i've been called out for that (and i stick up for our hockey,only a ***** would'nt) there has been a Russian fan who has taken the first liberty to shovel dirt,this thread is no exception,why are'nt you going after them? Why me?

But none of this changes anything when it comes to ultimate victory of teams in international hockey.We have always said the Soviet Union were as good against us due(not that they were'nt great,something i have not heard one Russian fan call us!!!) to the advantages they had in team building against us during those times and that it would end as soon as their players were under the same constraints.This has proved to be true without question unless you go with the "we only lose when everyone cheats" scenario,and i doubt anyone is going to kiss your *** that much..................you already know i'm not.


The crux of the problem (at least to me anyway) is not who won what at what time.............it is the continuing inablity of Russian fans to treat our wonderful hockey players with the respect they have earned,to consider them as equals and skillful players.Canadian fans most assuredely do this with Russsian players at least interms of TALENT.And i will give you(as a Swedish fan) some slack as i've seen some of your comments on Bobby Orr.

Of course,we are the most hockey loving country on earth..................how could we not? We love our own as anyone else does.............but we appreciate and accept great players from anywhere.


Pity you are'nt on our level.




But don't,please don't ******** me about results.
As I've said before, had the Canadians played together for a year before the tournaments, maybe the story would've been different, but it doesn't change anything that they didn't. The question is who had the best teams. The Soviets made their teams great partly because they played and trained so much together, you're going to hold that AGAINST them?

I'm not even going to bother commenting on the post-1990 stuff you keep bringing up as it has no relevance to the original question.

As said, I give the tiny nod to the Soviets because they had to play on your rink size and came up even anyways. I'm not going to change my opinion just because you don't like it.

------

What comments on Bobby Orr?

You're asking me why I like Russian hockey? They've produced some of the most skilled and most exciting players to watch in recent history. I like Canadian hockey too. In fact, I like hockey from every country. So what's all this talk about me not being on "your" level?

No the question is what you have against Russian hockey. Every time I see a thread about a Russian player or the Soviets you're always there bashing them. I don't think I've ever seen you say anything good about any Russian player on these boards.


Last edited by XploD: 10-29-2006 at 07:15 AM.
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Old
10-29-2006, 08:16 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
subject is Canada vs Soviet Union ...
It's amazing that you can't see the connection between Russia and the Soviet Union.

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10-29-2006, 09:22 AM
  #56
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Canada won a game in 1996 (and that is thanks to the referee not allowing two Russian goals)
OMG! He didn't allow them because they were illegal. There even was a picture on the page of Sport-Express - the main Russian paper where you could see 6 Russian players on ice. Yeah, but he should have allowed it, cause playing with an advantage doesn't count.

I find that there is great deal of justice that Russia can't win anything for so many years...

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10-29-2006, 09:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
What's Russia been doing to prevent the widening of that gap since the deck is not stacked in their favour anymore? what have they been winning to show us all Canada has not outstripped them by a fair margin since they can no longer play the international game as they once did? (since their players are so great and have always been so much better like you say)
Again, quit using this tired old argument - because you have yet to prove it legit.

Russian hockey is NOT as good as Soviet hockey, but not because they're not able to 'cheat' anymore as you say.
I can make the EXACT SAME argument against Canada. "Canada is nowhere near as dominant as they once were because they no longer have the advantages they did at the CC." How about that?

Russia isn't winning like they used to because the world has caught up to them (and Canada); and they're also still recovering from the economic disaster of the 1990's that almost destroyed hockey in Russia.

The Soviets dominated the old WC because 1. Canada wasn't there; and 2. They were better than everybody else (who also used their best players). It's not the big 3 anymore, any top 7 can beat anyother one anytime. Heck, Finland shut out both Russia and Canada with Niittymaki in net.

This isn't rocket science.

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10-29-2006, 09:42 AM
  #58
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No the question is what you have against Russian hockey. Every time I see a thread about a Russian player or the Soviets you're always there bashing them. I don't think I've ever seen you say anything good about any Russian player on these boards.[/QUOTE]

No,the question is what do Russian fans have against Canadian hockey.I don't get into Canada-Russia debates until a Russian fan comes in with guns blazing saying the Soviet Union was "clearly" better or Canadian hockey sucks (or some variation on that theme) happened in this thread if you care to look.And i'm not alone either,if i simply dislike Russian hockey then there must be a few others who don't like it either since they have been talking the straight dope on Soviet/Russian hockey also.Why are'nt you after them? Really,you should'nt be after anyone because there is no law saying people must adore Russian hockey or believe in their greatness.

when a Russian fan comes on praising their hockey and downplaying Canada's and a Canadian fan re-buffs them does that necessarily make them bigots and haters of Russian hockey? and if it does why don't you hold the same standard that you apply to us to Russian fans? How come you don't make posts lecturing Russian fans on their arrogant posts concerning Canadian hockey?

You know why you don't do that,because you're a fan of their hockey and not ours(does this make you a Canadian hockey hater and bigot?).I don't have an issue that you're a big fan of Russian hockey but spare me the bigot crap and getting all worked up because some fans don't agree with Russian logic in hockey matters.

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10-29-2006, 09:44 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Again, quit using this tired old argument - because you have yet to prove it legit.

Russian hockey is NOT as good as Soviet hockey, but not because they're not able to 'cheat' anymore as you say.
I can make the EXACT SAME argument against Canada. "Canada is nowhere near as dominant as they once were because they no longer have the advantages they did at the CC." How about that?

Russia isn't winning like they used to because the world has caught up to them (and Canada); and they're also still recovering from the economic disaster of the 1990's that almost destroyed hockey in Russia.

The Soviets dominated the old WC because 1. Canada wasn't there; and 2. They were better than everybody else (who also used their best players). It's not the big 3 anymore, any top 7 can beat anyother one anytime. Heck, Finland shut out both Russia and Canada with Niittymaki in net.

This isn't rocket science.
No,it's not rocket science.Hence the reason why i find it incredible that you can't see Canada has out-stripped Russia in hockey results since the fall of the U.S.S.R.


I have'nt proved it's legit? Look at your results.

Like a poster said before on here.........bring on the excuses.

It's the economy now i guess.I see tons of amazing Russian players in the nhl...............but it's the economy.

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10-29-2006, 09:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
2. They were better than everybody else (who also used their best players).
As has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other countries did not have their best players there, particularly in the 80's. They were all missing guys that would be sure fire 1st and 2nd liners. The only top country with it's best roster were the Soviets.

When stripped of this roster advantage, Russian hockey has done squat at the WC.

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10-29-2006, 10:01 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
No,it's not rocket science.Hence the reason why i find it incredible that you can't see Canada has out-stripped Russia in hockey results since the fall of the U.S.S.R.


I have'nt proved it's legit? Look at your results.

Like a poster said before on here.........bring on the excuses.

It's the economy now i guess.I see tons of amazing Russian players in the nhl...............but it's the economy.
I've never claimed that Russia was better than Canada - only the Soviets. Please, don't put words in my mouth.

If you don't think economics has anything do do with it, why is Slovakia's future not looking too good. Why are their recent junior teams (1983's - forseable future) not even in the same ballpark with the Palffys, Demitras, Hossas, Bondras, Satans, etc. Couldn't be that these players were all developed post-Czechoslovakian break up with MUCH less funding than they used to get. It's no different with Russia.

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10-29-2006, 10:13 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
As has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other countries did not have their best players there, particularly in the 80's. They were all missing guys that would be sure fire 1st and 2nd liners. The only top country with it's best roster were the Soviets.

When stripped of this roster advantage, Russian hockey has done squat at the WC.
Not in the 70s though. Either way, it wouldn't have made a difference b/c the Soviets, Canada and to a lesser extent the Czech were all far ahead of everybody else. Even if the Swedes and Finns had their best players it wouldn't have made a difference -- as proven when the Soviets played them in best on best tourneys.

If Russia put their best product on the ice today for every world championship...they still wouldn't be as dominant as the Soviets b/c the talent gap has closed between everyone - even if other teams were playing their 'B' squad. Look at Canada; their 'A' team was shut out by Switzerland who had 2 NHLers.


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10-29-2006, 10:49 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Not in the 70s though. Either way, it wouldn't have made a difference b/c the Soviets, Canada and to a lesser extent the Czech were all far ahead of everybody else. Even if the Swedes and Finns had their best players it wouldn't have made a difference -- as proven when the Soviets played them in best on best tourneys.

If Russia put their best product on the ice today for every world championship...they still wouldn't be as dominant as the Soviets b/c the talent gap has closed between everyone - even if other teams were playing their 'B' squad. Look at Canada; their 'A' team was shut out by Switzerland who had 2 NHLers.
that olympic team wasnt the A team it was gretzky's old boys club. Still a very good team on paper and no excuses for getting beat by the swiss, but it was hardly the best team we could have sent.

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10-29-2006, 10:56 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I've never claimed that Russia was better than Canada - only the Soviets. Please, don't put words in my mouth.

If you don't think economics has anything do do with it, why is Slovakia's future not looking too good. Why are their recent junior teams (1983's - forseable future) not even in the same ballpark with the Palffys, Demitras, Hossas, Bondras, Satans, etc. Couldn't be that these players were all developed post-Czechoslovakian break up with MUCH less funding than they used to get. It's no different with Russia.
We've already covered that economics is a factor but isn't the biggest (like you desperately want to make it out to be)

The talent is certainly there for Russia to be dominant on the international stage,not as dominant as they used to be as you are correct in saying the rest of the world has caught up but dominant nonethless.You put all the best Russian talent together and team build like you used to and go against a just put together team of the other countries and Russia would be the favourite and team to beat in any international tournament today no question!!!

As for Canada not being as dominant in CC style tournaments anymore since they can't "cheat" as you say................we've won top level international tournaments over the past 15 years,what has Russia won? Wheres the olympic gold or world cup titles? I guess Canada still can win after all can't they?

Why can't Russia?

Russia's results since the end of the old Soviet model are undeniable,the main problem is certainly not economics. It has caused them to be not as good as they could be of late but is definately not the reason they don't kick *** anymore.The talent in Russian hockey is there for them to be regular winners if they still played under the old system and took on rag tag teams from other countries with players playing in the nhl.

But they can't anymore and they don't kick *** anymore. But don't fret,you've still got Torino to soothe your battered pride.



Destroy the lie within yourself.Cmon,you can do it.

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10-29-2006, 11:09 AM
  #65
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Not in the 70s though. Either way, it wouldn't have made a difference b/c the Soviets, Canada and to a lesser extent the Czech were all far ahead of everybody else. Even if the Swedes and Finns had their best players it wouldn't have made a difference -- as proven when the Soviets played them in best on best tourneys.

If Russia put their best product on the ice today for every world championship...they still wouldn't be as dominant as the Soviets b/c the talent gap has closed between everyone - even if other teams were playing their 'B' squad. Look at Canada; their 'A' team was shut out by Switzerland who had 2 NHLers.
Good points, althought the Swedes were missing some good players in the 70's like Salming, Hedberg, Nilsson who were either in the NHL or WHA. Very likely not enough to beat the Soviets, but IMO they could have given the Czechs a run with those guys.

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10-29-2006, 11:53 AM
  #66
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As has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the other countries did not have their best players there, particularly in the 80's. They were all missing guys that would be sure fire 1st and 2nd liners. The only top country with it's best roster were the Soviets.

When stripped of this roster advantage, Russian hockey has done squat at the WC.
You starting this again? Stop trying to make up excuses about why the Soviets were so dominant.


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Originally Posted by ukrleaf View Post
OMG! He didn't allow them because they were illegal. There even was a picture on the page of Sport-Express - the main Russian paper where you could see 6 Russian players on ice. Yeah, but he should have allowed it, cause playing with an advantage doesn't count.
The referee went to video review to see if there were 6 on the ice during the time the goal was scored. Do you find anything wrong with that? No? Maybe the NHL rule
93
will tell you something.

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10-29-2006, 12:22 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
We've already covered that economics is a factor but isn't the biggest (like you desperately want to make it out to be)

The talent is certainly there for Russia to be dominant on the international stage,not as dominant as they used to be as you are correct in saying the rest of the world has caught up but dominant nonethless.You put all the best Russian talent together and team build like you used to and go against a just put together team of the other countries and Russia would be the favourite and team to beat in any international tournament today no question!!!

As for Canada not being as dominant in CC style tournaments anymore since they can't "cheat" as you say................we've won top level international tournaments over the past 15 years,what has Russia won? Wheres the olympic gold or world cup titles? I guess Canada still can win after all can't they?

Why can't Russia?

Russia's results since the end of the old Soviet model are undeniable,the main problem is certainly not economics. It has caused them to be not as good as they could be of late but is definately not the reason they don't kick *** anymore.The talent in Russian hockey is there for them to be regular winners if they still played under the old system and took on rag tag teams from other countries with players playing in the nhl.

But they can't anymore and they don't kick *** anymore. But don't fret,you've still got Torino to soothe your battered pride.



Destroy the lie within yourself.Cmon,you can do it.
There's no need for schoolyard backhand insults......nice way to resort to tactics used by certain people you criticize. Grow up.

The teams the Soviets beat were not 'put together/rag tag' teams in the WC. The vast majority of them were "A" squads, particularly in the 1970's. Just admit it.

Either way, you can't compare today's WC to those of the 70's and 80's because they're ALL put-together teams now. Nobody has their best. So when you say Russia would be the favorite with their "A" squad you are missing the point b/c that scenario is not like it was in the 70's/80's either. It's a fabrication to prove your point.


I've mentioned this before (and you responded with some weird tirade about conspiracy theories or something) ; the proof of Russian hockey economic problems can be seen in their WJC results b/c theres no 'favoritism' in that tourney.
The Soviets and Canada were equals; tradings gold year in and year out. Why then, when the USSR fell did Russia all of a sudden suck for 5-7 years? Chance? Considering this, there's no way you can say economics was not the main problem - especially considering its those players developed in that time span which are now on the national team. We'll see how it goes in the future with the younger more talented players starting to be developed now (Ovy, Malkin, etc.).

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10-29-2006, 02:50 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
No,the question is what do Russian fans have against Canadian hockey.I don't get into Canada-Russia debates until a Russian fan comes in with guns blazing saying the Soviet Union was "clearly" better or Canadian hockey sucks (or some variation on that theme) happened in this thread if you care to look.And i'm not alone either,if i simply dislike Russian hockey then there must be a few others who don't like it either since they have been talking the straight dope on Soviet/Russian hockey also.Why are'nt you after them? Really,you should'nt be after anyone because there is no law saying people must adore Russian hockey or believe in their greatness.
Then why are you after all Russian fans that don't like Canadian hockey then? You've got some amazing double standards.

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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
when a Russian fan comes on praising their hockey and downplaying Canada's and a Canadian fan re-buffs them does that necessarily make them bigots and haters of Russian hockey? and if it does why don't you hold the same standard that you apply to us to Russian fans? How come you don't make posts lecturing Russian fans on their arrogant posts concerning Canadian hockey?

You know why you don't do that,because you're a fan of their hockey and not ours(does this make you a Canadian hockey hater and bigot?).I don't have an issue that you're a big fan of Russian hockey but spare me the bigot crap and getting all worked up because some fans don't agree with Russian logic in hockey matters.
I've already told you what I think about Canada and Canadian hockey. The reason I don't lecture any Russian fan posting arrogant posts about Canadian hockey is because everyone else on the board already does it. I don't see too many posters lecturing arrogant Canadian fans like you and that's why I do it.


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10-29-2006, 02:55 PM
  #69
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Then why are you after all Russian fans that don't like Canadian hockey then? You've got some amazing double standards.


I've already tlod you what I think about Canada and Canadian hockey. The reason I don't lecture any Russian fan posting arrogant posts about Canadian hockey is because everyone else on the board already does it. I don't see too many posters lecturing arrogant Canadian fans like you and that's why I do it.
Everybody already does it? who? And i'm not arrogant,when Canada loses i admit it and when we don't lose i respect our wins.Don't lump me in with what Russian fans do.I.E: only respect their wins.


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10-29-2006, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
There's no need for schoolyard backhand insults......nice way to resort to tactics used by certain people you criticize. Grow up.

The teams the Soviets beat were not 'put together/rag tag' teams in the WC. The vast majority of them were "A" squads, particularly in the 1970's. Just admit it.

Either way, you can't compare today's WC to those of the 70's and 80's because they're ALL put-together teams now. Nobody has their best. So when you say Russia would be the favorite with their "A" squad you are missing the point b/c that scenario is not like it was in the 70's/80's either. It's a fabrication to prove your point.


I've mentioned this before (and you responded with some weird tirade about conspiracy theories or something) ; the proof of Russian hockey economic problems can be seen in their WJC results b/c theres no 'favoritism' in that tourney.
The Soviets and Canada were equals; tradings gold year in and year out. Why then, when the USSR fell did Russia all of a sudden suck for 5-7 years? Chance? Considering this, there's no way you can say economics was not the main problem - especially considering its those players developed in that time span which are now on the national team. We'll see how it goes in the future with the younger more talented players starting to be developed now (Ovy, Malkin, etc.).
Why am i going to admit to something that isn't true? Something that clear results show to be wrong? Who would do that? 5-7 years? they still are'nt anywhere near what they used to be...............chance?

Grow up zine and get over it or move on if you can't.

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10-29-2006, 03:04 PM
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Everybody already does it? who? And i'm not arrogant,when Canada loses i admit it and when we don't lose i respect our wins.Don't lump me in with what Russian fans do.
To use this thread as an example: God Bless Canada, BBB-King of Donair, Quiet Robert.

In my eyes you're the second most arrogant Canadian poster on these boards after KariyaIsGod. It's kinda like with crazy people, they don't know they're crazy.

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10-29-2006, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
To use this thread as an example: God Bless Canada, BBB-King of Donair, Quiet Robert.

In my eyes you're the second most arrogant Canadian poster on these boards after KariyaIsGod. It's kinda like with crazy people, they don't know they're crazy.
Sure........Canadian fans call them out,what about your fans?

Almost any Russian fan on here fits your crazy description,and yes.........they don't appear to realise it.

Move on Xplo,the good old days of the Soviet Union beating on teams due to advantageous circumstances are long gone.

When all the bigot and Russian hating and econnomic and cheating talk is swept away this is all you're left with.


Last edited by espo*: 10-29-2006 at 03:17 PM.
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Old
10-29-2006, 03:14 PM
  #73
XploD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Almost any Russian fan on here fits this description.

Your crazy theory would seem to be true however,you don't realise it.
Nice comeback copycat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Sure........Canadian fans call them out,what about your fans?
Does it matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Move on Xplo,the good old days of the Soviet Union beating on teams due to advantageous circumstances are long gone.
That's quite easy for me, cause I'm rooting for Sweden when it's international time. Yep, the Soviet days are long gone and so are the Canadian days.

Oh well, I'm done with you. Zine can take over from here. I just don't have any energy left, and to be honest, I don't want to change your opinion. I love to hate you.


Last edited by XploD: 10-29-2006 at 03:33 PM.
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Old
10-29-2006, 03:20 PM
  #74
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Trust me,The feelings mutual.

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Old
10-29-2006, 03:37 PM
  #75
ukrleaf
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
You starting this again? Stop trying to make up excuses about why the Soviets were so dominant.



The referee went to video review to see if there were 6 on the ice during the time the goal was scored. Do you find anything wrong with that? No? Maybe the NHL rule
93
will tell you something.
So? There were 6 people on ice? It was clear even from the TV translation. Do you need the rule where it is said, that only 5 skaters can play?

What about the other goal? The goal was moved and the forward's feet were fully inside the crease. I'm sure you'll find an excuse and say it wasn't this way.

And what about the game vs USA in Salt Lake? I'm sure you believe there was a goal that was disallowed. Although it was absolutely clear for everyone who can see, that the puck didn't cross the line. I was astonished to talk to people who still to this day believe, there was a goal then. Even the russian announcers said there was no goal.

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