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Canada vs Soviet Union

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Old
11-01-2006, 03:23 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
To use this thread as an example: God Bless Canada, BBB-King of Donair, Quiet Robert.

In my eyes you're the second most arrogant Canadian poster on these boards after KariyaIsGod. It's kinda like with crazy people, they don't know they're crazy.
I'm flattered that I could have such a tremendous impact on your life...

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11-04-2006, 02:10 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod View Post
Canada has produced far more talent and better high end talent.
You base this on what?

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11-04-2006, 04:54 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
You base this on what?
The fact that Canada's premier talent... Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau, Brodeur, Roy etc. is better than the Soviet top end talent... Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov etc...

Secondly, the fact that Canada has produced second tier talent in much greater volume.

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11-04-2006, 04:57 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod View Post
The fact that Canada's premier talent... Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau, Brodeur, Roy etc. is better than the Soviet top end talent... Kharlamov, Tretiak, Fetisov etc...
And who told you that?

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11-04-2006, 06:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
And who told you that?
It is true. As good as Fetisov was he was no Bobby Orr. He doesn't even come close. Look at the forwards too. Kharalmov was a great player but he is nowhere near the level of Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux. Roy, Plante, Hall and Sawchuk are all better than Tretiak.

The top end depth too, the Soviets don't come close. After Tretiak there is no Soviet goalie that comes close to him. What five Soviet forwards can match up to Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Beliveau and Richard? What five Soviet defencemen can match up to Orr, Shore, Harvey, Potvin and Bourque?

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11-04-2006, 06:26 PM
  #106
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What's next, is he going to tell me that Kharlamov was better than Gretzky and Fetisov was better than Orr...



How does somebody actually watch hockey games and come up with such outlandish conclusions?

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11-04-2006, 10:36 PM
  #107
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It depends on what hockey games you watch and it is obvious that you both did not watch much games with Soviet players and probably the same goes for even those Canadians you mentioned. You just hear about the NHL legends and assume them to be better than any others. So you don't know what you are talking about.

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11-04-2006, 10:49 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
It depends on what hockey games you watch and it is obvious that you both did not watch much games with Soviet players and probably the same goes for even those Canadians you mentioned. You just hear about the NHL legends and assume them to be better than any others. So you don't know what you are talking about.
I asked you a question and you haven't answered it. What five Soviet forwards can match up to Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Beliveau and Richard? What five Soviet defencemen can match up to Orr, Shore, Harvey, Potvin and Bourque? What five Soviet goalies can match up against Roy, Hall, Plante, Dryden and Sawchuk?

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11-04-2006, 11:15 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I asked you a question and you haven't answered it. What five Soviet forwards can match up to Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Beliveau and Richard? What five Soviet defencemen can match up to Orr, Shore, Harvey, Potvin and Bourque? What five Soviet goalies can match up against Roy, Hall, Plante, Dryden and Sawchuk?
Here, look at the top players on the lists:
Fowards
Defensemen
Goaltenders

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11-05-2006, 09:27 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Here, look at the top players on the lists:
Fowards
Defensemen
Goaltenders
Answer the question.

What Soviet forward was better than Gretzky or Lemieux?

I've seen 8 of the top ten Soviet forwards according to that list and none were even close to Gretzky.

Secondly, what Soviet defenseman was better than Orr?

Having personally seen 7 of the top 10 on that list play, I can conclusively say that none were.

Stop avoiding it and just tell us flat out, which Soviet forwards were better than the names we've mentioned.

As for my hockey watching experience... well, believe what you want.

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11-05-2006, 07:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod View Post
Answer the question.

What Soviet forward was better than Gretzky or Lemieux?

I've seen 8 of the top ten Soviet forwards according to that list and none were even close to Gretzky.

Secondly, what Soviet defenseman was better than Orr?

Having personally seen 7 of the top 10 on that list play, I can conclusively say that none were.

Stop avoiding it and just tell us flat out, which Soviet forwards were better than the names we've mentioned.

As for my hockey watching experience... well, believe what you want.
Proof of just how good the Canadians were in comparison to the Russians is how Fetisov, who was thought to be the Russian Bourque, and Makarov, who was thought to be the Russian Gretzky, both performed once they got to the NHL. They were more or less the same age as Bourque and Gretzky, but were no where near as effective as Bourque and Gretzky in the 90's.

Guys in the same age bracket as Fetisov, such as MacInnis, Chelios, Coffey and Bourque were winning/competing for Norris Trophies in their 30's during the 90's, whereas Fetisov was at best a 2nd pairing guy. Not bad, but hardly the star that he was made out to be.

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11-05-2006, 07:44 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Proof of just how good the Canadians were in comparison to the Russians is how Fetisov, who was thought to be the Russian Bourque, and Makarov, who was thought to be the Russian Gretzky, both performed once they got to the NHL. They were more or less the same age as Bourque and Gretzky, but were no where near as effective as Bourque and Gretzky in the 90's.

Guys in the same age bracket as Fetisov, such as MacInnis, Chelios, Coffey and Bourque were winning/competing for Norris Trophies in their 30's during the 90's, whereas Fetisov was at best a 2nd pairing guy. Not bad, but hardly the star that he was made out to be.
Fetisov was better in his prime than Chelios, Macinnes (duh), Coffey (duh) but not Bourque. He played a long time though had to adjust to a new culture/league etc at a late age something its not clear any of the others could have done.

The Soviets in 87 said they had a 1000 Gretzkys in their country..well thats not saying much but as for Lemieux there was no player I ever saw as dominant. Beyond Lemieux, they could make a solid case, my friend for equality.

btw - this is the most boring thread every to go 5 pages.

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11-05-2006, 08:17 PM
  #113
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Answer the question.

What Soviet forward was better than Gretzky or Lemieux?
Makarov, Kharlamov, Mikhailov for example. And unlike you I don't say better but on the same level.


Quote:
I've seen 8 of the top ten Soviet forwards according to that list and none were even close to Gretzky.
I am sure you have seen and know it all.


Quote:
Secondly, what Soviet defenseman was better than Orr?
You mean only offensively or in general?


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Having personally seen 7 of the top 10 on that list play, I can conclusively say that none were.
What do you mean personally seen? How much? How much did you even see of Orr?


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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Proof of just how good the Canadians were in comparison to the Russians is how Fetisov, who was thought to be the Russian Bourque, and Makarov, who was thought to be the Russian Gretzky, both performed once they got to the NHL. They were more or less the same age as Bourque and Gretzky, but were no where near as effective as Bourque and Gretzky in the 90's.

Guys in the same age bracket as Fetisov, such as MacInnis, Chelios, Coffey and Bourque were winning/competing for Norris Trophies in their 30's during the 90's, whereas Fetisov was at best a 2nd pairing guy. Not bad, but hardly the star that he was made out to be.
This is just an ignorant comment. You think that the Canadian superstars would be as good as they were in the NHL if they played, after their best years, in a high level league of a different country with different rules and playing style?

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11-05-2006, 08:53 PM
  #114
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YMB29

All you do is make flippant comments & answer questions with questions & it is getting very boring. Answer this question:

Overall both defensively & offensively what Soviet defenseman was better tham Orr and why?

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11-05-2006, 09:26 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Here, look at the top players on the lists:
Fowards
Defensemen
Goaltenders
That isn't a very good list. It only tells you who scored the most goals with the Soviets. It doesn't tell you who the best players were. You still haven't answered my question I won't say it again for a couple reasons. First, I doubt you will answer and second you already know what it is.

There is no way Kharalmov is on the same level as Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux. Howe at 46 out played Kharlamov in the 74 Summit Series. Esposito who isn't at the same level as Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux, outplayed Kharalmov in the 72' Summit Series.

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11-06-2006, 12:47 AM
  #116
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All you do is make flippant comments & answer questions with questions & it is getting very boring.
So do you.


Quote:
Answer this question:
Overall both defensively & offensively what Soviet defenseman was better tham Orr and why?
Again "better"? Fetisov and Vasiliev for example. What exactly do you mean why? Tell me why is Orr or Bourque better?


Quote:
That isn't a very good list. It only tells you who scored the most goals with the Soviets. It doesn't tell you who the best players were. You still haven't answered my question I won't say it again for a couple reasons. First, I doubt you will answer and second you already know what it is.
I did answer you questions. The lists do tell most of the best players.


Quote:
There is no way Kharalmov is on the same level as Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux. Howe at 46 out played Kharlamov in the 74 Summit Series. Esposito who isn't at the same level as Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux, outplayed Kharalmov in the 72' Summit Series.
Outplayed?? You are just being silly.


Last edited by YMB29: 11-06-2006 at 12:55 AM.
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11-06-2006, 01:51 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
That isn't a very good list. It only tells you who scored the most goals with the Soviets. It doesn't tell you who the best players were. You still haven't answered my question I won't say it again for a couple reasons. First, I doubt you will answer and second you already know what it is.

There is no way Kharalmov is on the same level as Gretzky, Howe, and Lemieux. Howe at 46 out played Kharlamov in the 74 Summit Series. Esposito who isn't at the same level as Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux, outplayed Kharalmov in the 72' Summit Series.
You can't compare players based on 1 single tourney though. One could just as easily say that Pavel Patera > Gretzky b/c Patera easily outplayed Wayne at the '98 Olympics.
In fact, Yakushev was just as good as Espo at the Summit Series, yet Yakushev was nowhere near as good a player as Kharlamov. You have to look at the big picture....but that's hard to do because both Canada and the Soviets played so little games against eachother.

IMO, Kharlamov is on Rocket Richards level - both in terms of talent and reverence. I think Bobrov is on a Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux level. Firsov is on a level with Jagr.

in his prime, Fetisov > Bourque.


Last edited by Zine: 11-06-2006 at 08:52 AM.
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11-06-2006, 06:40 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
This is just an ignorant comment. You think that the Canadian superstars would be as good as they were in the NHL if they played, after their best years, in a high level league of a different country with different rules and playing style?
Always the excuses. If they were truly as great and elite talents as you say, they would have been able to overcome any such adversities. Maybe not play as well as the elite players in the NHL, but considering they were the best the Soviets had to offer, you'd expect them to be at least be in the top 10 at their postion. Makarov and Fetisov were never close to the top 10, whereas guys in their age group were still competing for Arts, Norris', Harts, allstar nom's ect. Other than Makarov's 'rookie' year, they weren't even top 80 players during their time in the NHL. Fetisov was never more than a #4 dman and Makarov never more than a 2nd liner.


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11-06-2006, 09:19 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You can't compare players based on 1 single tourney though. One could just as easily say that Pavel Patera > Gretzky b/c Patera easily outplayed Wayne at the '98 Olympics.
In fact, Yakushev was just as good as Espo at the Summit Series, yet Yakushev was nowhere near as good a player as Kharlamov. You have to look at the big picture....but that's hard to do because both Canada and the Soviets played so little games against eachother.

IMO, Kharlamov is on Rocket Richards level - both in terms of talent and reverence. I think Bobrov is on a Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux level. Firsov is on a level with Jagr.

in his prime, Fetisov > Bourque.
I like your reasoning except Bobrov was not on a Gretzky, Howe or Lemieux level.

It's quite obvious that nobody rational believes that Kharlamov, Mikhailov or any other Soviet forward was on the same level as Gretzky, Lemieux or Howe.

I honestly believe thoguh, that YM believes the delusional crap that he says só I'm not sure that arguing with him could do any good good at all.

As for Orr, he is also clearly superior to any defenseman ever to play, Soviet or not.

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11-06-2006, 02:47 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
I did answer you questions. The lists do tell most of the best players.
Outplayed?? You are just being silly.
How did you answer them? I said what five Soviet forwards can match up to Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Richard and Beliveau. I asked you the same thing with defencemen and goalies. All you did was give me a list of who scored the most goals and who played the most games with the Soviets. It does tell me in general who were the Soviet's best players but I already know that. I want to know what five players at each position can match up to Canada's top five.

Howe did play better than Kharlamov. Even if you don't think he played better you would have to admit that he played even with Kharlamov. Howe was well past his prime and Kharlamov was in his.

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11-06-2006, 02:51 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You can't compare players based on 1 single tourney though. One could just as easily say that Pavel Patera > Gretzky b/c Patera easily outplayed Wayne at the '98 Olympics.
In fact, Yakushev was just as good as Espo at the Summit Series, yet Yakushev was nowhere near as good a player as Kharlamov. You have to look at the big picture....but that's hard to do because both Canada and the Soviets played so little games against eachother.

IMO, Kharlamov is on Rocket Richards level - both in terms of talent and reverence. I think Bobrov is on a Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux level. Firsov is on a level with Jagr.

in his prime, Fetisov > Bourque.
I agree that is hard to compare the Soviets to the Canadians. The most important thing to look at is how they played against each other.

It wasn't just one tournament though. Kharlamov played in both Summit Series. If you say he was on the level of Richard he would have been the best player at both tournaments which he wasn't.

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11-06-2006, 03:18 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post



Again "better"? Fetisov and Vasiliev for example. What exactly do you mean why? Tell me why is Orr or Bourque better?







.
Find some film. Watch some classic hockey. You'll find out that Fetisov was a great defenseman. How he ranks with great NHL d men in the level under Bobby Orr is difficult to do. You're going from generation to generation, style to style, tournament play etc.

If you think for a minute that he was at Orr's level, you are just wrong or being disingenious to keep an arguement going. Orr did things no one else did, he changed the way the game was played, he made plays that no one else attempted or has since. If you watched one game and didn't understand that, you just aren't watching closely enough. Vasliev compared to Orr ? C'mon.

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11-06-2006, 03:26 PM
  #123
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See, the problem is, I believe that this kid would honestly sit there and tell us all this same crap with a straight face if this were a an in person discussion.

He truly believes it.

How do you convince somebody so staunchly entrenched in some sort of crazy inverted reality that he is wrong?

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11-06-2006, 03:28 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
It wasn't just one tournament though. Kharlamov played in both Summit Series. If you say he was on the level of Richard he would have been the best player at both tournaments which he wasn't.
IMHO, Kharlamov actually was the best player in the first Summit Series (1972). I think John Ferguson knew that for sure:
"I called Clarke over to the bench, looked over at Kharlamov and said, 'I think he needs a tap on the ankle.' I didn't think twice about it. It was Us versus Them. And Kharlamov was killing us. I mean, somebody had to do it."

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11-06-2006, 05:20 PM
  #125
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I think top five Russian forwards of all time are Kharlamov, Makarov, Firsov, Bobrov, Maltsev (no particular order).

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