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Tom Renney's treatment of Dawes...

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Old
10-28-2006, 03:54 PM
  #26
shaner89
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Gotta feel bad for Dawes and Prucha

Prucha Nylander Jagr
Shanny Straka Dawes

would be sick

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10-28-2006, 03:59 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Rozsvial pass was awful but you don't bench your leading minute guy for that one play. For the most part he isn't on the ice when the other team is scoring goals. .
One of the biggest misleading stats ever.

Who's on the ice against Roszival? Checking lines cause Jagr is usually on the ice with him. Defensive D-men too for the opposition, so Rosy doesn't see scoring lines like the rest of the defnse does throughout the game.

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10-28-2006, 04:02 PM
  #28
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BTW, I have no problems with sitting Dawes tonight. It's ONE GAME !!!

The panic and SPECULATION is just a tad ridiculous.

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10-28-2006, 04:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
One of the biggest misleading stats ever.

Who's on the ice against Roszival? Checking lines cause Jagr is usually on the ice with him. Defensive D-men too for the opposition, so Rosy doesn't see scoring lines like the rest of the defnse does throughout the game.
Thats great but i'm not talking +/-

I'm taking special teams into account as well.

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10-28-2006, 04:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
The no accountability thing erks me a lot also.

It's just ridiculous.

I just never thought that Renney would be a guy to basically flat out lie to the fans and media about the young players.
I'm really glad you brought this up, because this is starting to become my number one area of concern (aside from protecting our players). When a guy like Rosi makes a cough-up like he did the other night there is no way in hell he should be out the next shift! Where in the ****ing hell is the accountability? Not only would he have been benched for the rest of the period under my control, but a healthy scratch for tonights game.

We've got two other defenseman that are healthy scratches - use competition as a motivator! Make these guys hungry to play again!

The same goes for Malik and Kaspar! Ozo hasn't ****ed up yet, so give him a chance. Pock was making good strides in his defensive game (I still point to the Richards play as a benchmark of his improvement...). You rotate the defensive corps until these stupid plays cease to exist (or at least their occurence is minimized).

Sometimes I really don't know what is going on, but I'd sure as hell love to find out!

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10-28-2006, 04:32 PM
  #31
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As far as the treatment of Dawes and Prucha goes, more or less anyone that was around last year at the start of the season will know where I stand: if they're not getting the minutes to develop their talents, they should be sent down.

Dawes is 21, there is still room for him to improve in the AHL. If he's not getting the minutes send him down.

Chemistry takes time to build and if Renney keeps tweaking the lines every god damn night he's never going to find what he's looking for. Give Prucha a chance to play with Jagr or don't give him a chance, whatever happens though stick with it for some time. Especially if it works! What the **** are we doing switching things up for Florida when we actually won a game against Toronto? Any successful coach knows that you can't make changes to winning lineups - it's bad karma and it's bad for morale.

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10-28-2006, 04:39 PM
  #32
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I'm glad to see Renney being discussed in a negative way, frankly I wanted to post my displeasure with the coach but I figured I'd be eaten alive with negativity for my comments.

Since the olympic break its been a series of idiotic moves by this guy begining with babying two key players heading into the playoffs. Tom was convinced we had the atlantic division wraped up so he sat players with nagging injuries. Lundqvist should have been in net late in the season. Further, you have to put some blame on a teams coach, whatever sport it is, for losing five straight games when all we had to do was win ONE. We lost our confidence, we lost home ice, and we still havent won a playoff game in ten years.

Now this year, the line up, the power play, and the things Jon pointed out. What hasn't be discussed is how soft he is. The guy doesn't bark one word at the referee no matter what. If Jagr takes a cheapshot to the face, not only is everyone on this team too soft to make a statement and respond and/or defend, but our coach stands there like a deer in headlights and never does anything. A coach must be vocal to the refs, it is absolutely neccesary. You ***** and moan about something and next time the ref maybe does not make the call, or one goes your way. This is how a meaningless hook goes uncalled with 45 seconds left in a tie game. Smart coaches steals some wins like that for you. Man, do we have one soft team top to bottom, coaching staff etc. Soft teams don't win playoff series.

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10-28-2006, 04:41 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
As far as the treatment of Dawes and Prucha goes, more or less anyone that was around last year at the start of the season will know where I stand: if they're not getting the minutes to develop their talents, they should be sent down.

Dawes is 21, there is still room for him to improve in the AHL. If he's not getting the minutes send him down.

Chemistry takes time to build and if Renney keeps tweaking the lines every god damn night he's never going to find what he's looking for. Give Prucha a chance to play with Jagr or don't give him a chance, whatever happens though stick with it for some time. Especially if it works! What the **** are we doing switching things up for Florida when we actually won a game against Toronto? Any successful coach knows that you can't make changes to winning lineups - it's bad karma and it's bad for morale.
Ding ding ding!! We have a winner. Seriously this is what I've been saying too. Finally some common sense seeps into this conversation! Great points BigE.

The team can't become cohesive being switched around all the time! I can't stand the way this team is being run right now.

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10-28-2006, 05:02 PM
  #34
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100% agree BigE...

it's absolutely ridiclous to tote this kid around when he can both be helping Hartford, who does not seem to have any scorers on the wings, and he can keep himself sharp. It's especially accentuated when he's not playing on a Saturday. It makes so little sense. I'd assume that Dawes will get at least a few minutes sometime on this trip; if not, then I would say that was the most wasteful trip for a 21 year old I've seen in a while. But again, I assume he gets into a game on this trip.

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Old
10-28-2006, 05:10 PM
  #35
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Renney can blame the short preseason as a reason why he hasn't gotten the line chemistry needed, but he also needs to stick to his game plan. In the pregame, he says he'll roll 4 lines (poor combo's at best), and then 2 shifts into a game he's back playing 3 lines, and double shifting Shanny. If a player crews up, he dosen't confrnt or sit them, and when a guy like Dawes or Prucha does well or scores, he sits them the next shift, or leaves them of the PP unit. Even last year, his ability to match lines with other teams was always questionable, as is his choice of D men on the ice for the shift following a goal for. He seems to be outcoached on a nightly basis.

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10-29-2006, 01:38 AM
  #36
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It isn't only 1 game for Dawes. This is the 2nd or 3rd time he has been a scratch and we aren't out of the first month. Total number of Hossa scratches? 0

If Pock, a rookie, is sitting for being out there for 4 goals against the best team in the league, shouldn't Roszival sit for being out there for 3 goals against in the Pit game? I'm not sure I like that logic but if that is the standard we are throwing around, and if that is how accountability is established, well it only makes sense. I don't want this to become another Roszival thread so I hope this is used only in the context of accountability. I really don't want to see some players being held to one set of standards while others are held to different ones. It should be the same across the board regardless of the name.

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Old
10-29-2006, 01:44 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
it's absolutely ridiclous to tote this kid around when he can both be helping Hartford, who does not seem to have any scorers on the wings, and he can keep himself sharp. It's especially accentuated when he's not playing on a Saturday. It makes so little sense. I'd assume that Dawes will get at least a few minutes sometime on this trip; if not, then I would say that was the most wasteful trip for a 21 year old I've seen in a while. But again, I assume he gets into a game on this trip.
my guess Dawes will play against the kings and Sharks. we will need Orr vs the Ducks.

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Old
10-29-2006, 06:07 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaner89 View Post
Gotta feel bad for Dawes and Prucha

Prucha Nylander Jagr
Shanny Straka Dawes

would be sick

No, actually, what we saw last night is that, once Jagr is fully up to speed, Renney needs to keep the Straka/Nylander/Jagr line together. No, Nylander's not a #1 center. But, when Jags is on his game, just needs someone who plays well with him chemistry-wise. And, Straka's off to a very good start.

If anything, we saw the makings of a very good line, with Prucha on LW, and Hall on RW. Put Cullen between them, and I think the 3rd line is set.

I also believe that Hollweg, Betts and Ward should be re-united on the 4th line, since A) Ward and Betts have obvious chemistry (you can see it how they kill penalties together), and B) putting them on higher lines diminishes their respective contributions.

So, what are we left with? Shanahan as the lone component for the 2nd line. Maybe in a year from now, either Dawes is ready for such responsibilty, or we'll see the likes of Dubinsky, Korpikoski (or perhaps even) Jessiman. So there is the breakdown of the forwards....we're missing a 2nd line center and RW.

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Old
10-29-2006, 07:39 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Does anyone else here seriously think that it's borderline ridiculous? The kid plays pretty much balls out each time and has shown that he's a solid forchecker. He's been paired with bottom rung offensive players and now he's scratched in favor of Hossa?

Renney is an absolute liar in regards to what he said about young guys needing minutes. Flat out lied to the media, IMO. If you treat a guy like this who shows that he can play hard and at least try by scratching him in favor of a do-nothing player like Hossa... I don't know what to say.

Renney flat out lied, and that makes me furious.

Just something you shouldn't be doing as a coach.
Hold on, Jon.

Dawes' scratching last night was pathetic, but he was not scratched in favor of Hossa, he was scratched in favor of ORR. Hossa has been playing on the fourth line for most of the season, whereas Dawes usually finds himself on the 3rd line.

To scratch a promising young player like Dawes for Colton Orr to skate around the ice for 3 minutes is a real bonehead decision. What bothers me is that the fourth line last year, and at points this year, had been very successful in keeping the puck in the offensive zone, which is exactly what you would like from guys like Hollweg, Hossa, Hall (and Moore and Ortmeyer). Last night, they were busy chasing the puck in their own end.

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10-29-2006, 09:16 AM
  #40
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Oh come on. Your better than that MU. You can't take away what he did last season. We all loved the guy last season.
Look I'm very down on Renney. The Dawes / Prucha situations, special teams, lien combos, accountability, etc.

But I think some of you are really getting carried away and forgetting where this team came from. Renney, with a lot of help from Jags and Hank, took a bottom 4 team into a contender last year. He installed practice sessions and an organizational philosophy. Does anyone remember Bobby Holik saying there were no organized practices or sessions? The team HAS come a long way under REnney.

But, I suppose expectations have been raised because of the progress.

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10-29-2006, 09:25 AM
  #41
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In regard to Dawes... I honestly think that he has no room for improvement in the AHL and just being with the big club, even if it's just in practices, is more effective towards his development than spending more time in a lower league that he already proven he can handle. He's treating Prucha exactly the same as he did all of last season, and he scored 30 goals.

Marcel Hossa, btw... is -7.

But here's the truth. None of the Rangers problems stem from personell issues. It stems from not doing the things that made them successful last season. Last season, the defensemen used their sticks (on the ice) a lot more in the defensive zone. They weren't a big group, so they had to rely on their skill and dexterity. Last season, the forwards backchecked hard. The combination of those two things led to the players playing above their on-paper skill level. They need to get back to those things. Roster decisions are what they are and a lot of times, are gut calls or based on what went on in the last practice or two. No, the teams' problems have been fundamental.

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10-29-2006, 10:30 AM
  #42
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And that's the problem, Singin'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not really sure that Renney is doing all that much different. The results have been different and that's why we might be putting him under a microscope.
He is not doing anything different but is getting much different results. The reason for that is that he cannot "coach" on autopilot when he cannot rely on Jagr & Henke to play at a superhuman level. That is what got him his success last year. When one (or both) came down to Earth, Renney's true coaching (or lack thereof) has stood out.

IMO, it SEEMS like last year's success was predicated upon the play of two people at an unreal level. When he has actually had to coach, and not just put the team on cruise control, the results have been not so successfull.

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10-29-2006, 10:42 AM
  #43
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I guess a devils-advocate question here, but Renney is not the only one who is making these decisions. Are the rest of the coaches and Slats behind all of these moves? Are these trends more indicative of the team's philosophy or just Renney?

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10-29-2006, 11:08 AM
  #44
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Hossa still...

is looking for his first point. What he has over Dawes is the ability to play the PK. If Hossa didn't kill penalties, I see no reason for him to be in the lineup. He brings nothing else and I think Renney's realized this since he's relegated to the fourth line and killing penalties and no PP time.

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Old
10-29-2006, 12:31 PM
  #45
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I'd rather move Dawes down to the AHL and keep Hossa as a 4th liner than sit Hossa and keep Dawes as a 4th liner.

My reasoning is simple: Dawes will not benefit from 5 minutes of ice a night. He didn't dominate at the AHL level last year, and he can still round his game at that level (especially defensively). So send him down, let him develop further, and have Hossa/Orr fill the 4th line role...it's not like they're going to be hurt by those minutes.

There was a time when Hossa could have become something on this team, but his inability to stickhandle matched with his low level of offensive awareness have crippled most of the potential that he once had. If his task isn't straight forward he falters (i.e., if he has to make a decision without any precedence or instruction from the coaches he usually ****s things up).

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10-29-2006, 01:34 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
Poor coaching. Renney and the staff need to get their heads out of the sand and fast. I want to at least see some improvement game to game.
I agree. It's strange but Renny has such a dual nature. As I have said, you can tell that he is a good teacher and motivator. The timeouts that he takes during the game so that he can go over strategy is another good sign. I remember screaming at the TV for Campbell, Low or Trotts to call a time out for various reasons.

However, there are the signs that he is not a good coach as well. The lack of outside the box thinking. The lack of creativity and the inability to adapt your strategy during the game. The, what seems at times, selective accountability. The utter lack of discilpline. The unwillingness to admit that there is more to a game than making a plan on the chalkboard and going over the X's & O's. Not putting his players into a more beneficial position when having the last line change. The truly bizarre line combinations. Completely ignoring any match-up principle.

At the end of the day, I doubt that Renney is going anywhere while Sather is still here. I think that he is someone who would be better served working in player development than being behind the bench. What happens in two years from now is up to him.


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10-29-2006, 02:42 PM
  #47
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Dawes hasn't been getting the ice time for a variety of reasons. Primarily, he has not been good in his own zone. Second, he gets knocked off the puck way too easily. Plus, his forte is offense, and this team isn't struggling with offense right now. They're struggling on the defensive side of the puck. Hossa has proven himself very capable in his own zone and thus is getting the ice time. Last night Renney chose to play Orr over Dawes to fill what he saw as a need to provide a little toughness, and also to give a player who's been sitting the majority of time some ice time after he spent the summer doing everything the team asked in order to improve his game. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just offering the reason for some of Renney's decisions as I see them.

Prucha's lack of ice time has been frustrating, but then I read some quotes from Prucha in today's Newsday, and it started to make a little more sense.

Quote:
"I feel like there's too many thoughts in my head when I have the puck," the second-year winger said before last night's game. "It wasn't a relief. I don't think I'm playing that well. I don't need goals to feel relief, I just feel like I need to play better. That would do it."
He's been indecisive with the puck all season, holding on to it that one extra second. It's caused him to miss a bunch of opportunities, and in the Toronto game, it cost the team a goal. While some may say he needs to more ice time to regain his confidence, there's a fine line. The team psyche as a whole is extremely fragile right now, and at this point, it's more important for the team to do what's got the best chance at getting them a couple wins under their belt (i.e. overplaying Shanny and Jagr) than it is to try to get Prucha extra ice time.

FWIW, the article with the Prucha quote can be found here:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...-rangers-print

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10-29-2006, 03:05 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
Dawes hasn't been getting the ice time for a variety of reasons. Primarily, he has not been good in his own zone. Second, he gets knocked off the puck way too easily. Plus, his forte is offense, and this team isn't struggling with offense right now. They're struggling on the defensive side of the puck. Hossa has proven himself very capable in his own zone and thus is getting the ice time. Last night Renney chose to play Orr over Dawes to fill what he saw as a need to provide a little toughness, and also to give a player who's been sitting the majority of time some ice time after he spent the summer doing everything the team asked in order to improve his game. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just offering the reason for some of Renney's decisions as I see them.
What forte? Are you really going to tell me that Hossa has been better than Dawes on the ice? And if Dawes forte is offense, then shouldn't the be developed on the top-2 lines? Now who was the last Rangers rookie that was developed that way? The only times Prucha played on the top-2 lines last year was when Rucinsky was injured. So what rookie was developed on the top lines?

Renney himself has stated that he is not going to keep a rookie player up with the big team if said rookie is going to play minimal minutes. If he is afraid to entrust Dawes with an every day 3rd line role, then send him to where he can have the minutes that his development demands.
Quote:
Prucha's lack of ice time has been frustrating, but then I read some quotes from Prucha in today's Newsday, and it started to make a little more sense.
Comments like that have been made by many a veteran player, not just rookies. Yet, they do not find their ice time reduced.
Quote:
The team psyche as a whole is extremely fragile right now, and at this point, it's more important for the team to do what's got the best chance at getting them a couple wins under their belt (i.e. overplaying Shanny and Jagr) than it is to try to get Prucha extra ice time.
What you are describing is strictly the classic short-term gratification/long-term loss environment. Riding near 40 year-olds into the ground while neglecting your younger players is no way to run a team. Such a strategy will almost ALWAYS backfire in the end. The older veterans will tire out (see last year's playoffs) and the younger players will have lost confidence by then.
In Prucha's case, he was the 2nd leading goal scorer at both ES & PP last year. As such, doesn't he deserve the same benefit of the doubt that you would give to other top-2 line players? It is not a case of getting Prucha extra time but rather getting him his deserved time, as someone who is fit to play on the top-2 lines.

BTW. Prucha is 5th on the team in scoring and is tied for 6th in SOG's (one behind 5th). Would that everyone would struggle like that.


Last edited by True Blue: 10-29-2006 at 06:31 PM.
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10-29-2006, 03:06 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squishy View Post
Dawes hasn't been getting the ice time for a variety of reasons. Primarily, he has not been good in his own zone. Second, he gets knocked off the puck way too easily. Plus, his forte is offense, and this team isn't struggling with offense right now. They're struggling on the defensive side of the puck. Hossa has proven himself very capable in his own zone and thus is getting the ice time. Last night Renney chose to play Orr over Dawes to fill what he saw as a need to provide a little toughness, and also to give a player who's been sitting the majority of time some ice time after he spent the summer doing everything the team asked in order to improve his game. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just offering the reason for some of Renney's decisions as I see them.

Prucha's lack of ice time has been frustrating, but then I read some quotes from Prucha in today's Newsday, and it started to make a little more sense.



He's been indecisive with the puck all season, holding on to it that one extra second. It's caused him to miss a bunch of opportunities, and in the Toronto game, it cost the team a goal. While some may say he needs to more ice time to regain his confidence, there's a fine line. The team psyche as a whole is extremely fragile right now, and at this point, it's more important for the team to do what's got the best chance at getting them a couple wins under their belt (i.e. overplaying Shanny and Jagr) than it is to try to get Prucha extra ice time.

FWIW, the article with the Prucha quote can be found here:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...-rangers-print
Hossa is like a - 50 thousand, its not his defense that is keeping him in the roster, its his explicit pictures of Renney that he has.

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Old
10-29-2006, 04:26 PM
  #50
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dawes was hardly given a shot once he made this team.. hossa should'nt even be playing nhl hockey imo.. the guy is another kovalev enigma.. decent one night looks to be coming around then vanishes for another 3 weeks.. btw when is renney going to put pock back into the lineup.? when will rosival and malik get held accountable for they're putrid play.. let alone malik could'nt beat an old lady in a footrace.. i think he's our version of the d-man that went out with the rule changes..

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