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Tom Renney's treatment of Dawes...

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Old
10-29-2006, 07:13 PM
  #51
DutchShamrock
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The lack of patience for rookies is downright scary. I could believe that maybe we were getting spoiled with the likes of Prucha and Lundqvist and their immediate success, but our history of prospects should surpress thoughts like that. You simply cannot expect a first year player to smash into the league and be an impact player. Guys like Malkin and Ovechkin are special but hardly the standard for rookies. You have to give the kids time and go through the ups and downs. It is the refusal to do so that led to our penchant for aging vets and one way tickets out of town for quality prospects.

What is even scarier is the infinite patience for guys like Hossa. His defense?! You mean his worst amongst forwards -7. He is an empty jersey. And worse, he will not amount to anything yet we waste time and resources on him that would be better suited towards someone with promise. And I'm tired of the PK argument, he is 6th amongst forwards with only 1:43 per game on the pk. We are shorthanded an average of 6 times per game. Assume that works out to about 8 minutes (with ppga and penalties against the other team to end the pk) that isn't a crucial number for our success.

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10-29-2006, 07:16 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Does anyone else here seriously think that it's borderline ridiculous? The kid plays pretty much balls out each time and has shown that he's a solid forchecker. He's been paired with bottom rung offensive players and now he's scratched in favor of Hossa?

Renney is an absolute liar in regards to what he said about young guys needing minutes. Flat out lied to the media, IMO. If you treat a guy like this who shows that he can play hard and at least try by scratching him in favor of a do-nothing player like Hossa... I don't know what to say.

Renney flat out lied, and that makes me furious.

Just something you shouldn't be doing as a coach.
Now people are agreeing with me, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Also something to be discussed, is his treatment of Prucha.

I frankly don't understand the hesitence to play young guys.

It's very infuriating to watch as a fan. To see your coach basically lying to the media before the season is almost puke worthy.
Giving Betts 2nd line ice time, and Prucha 3rd line time are just two reasons why he should go back to head of player development.

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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
The no accountability thing erks me a lot also.

It's just ridiculous.

I just never thought that Renney would be a guy to basically flat out lie to the fans and media about the young players.
Another thing I've been saying... again... when was the last time he benched someone? Last Thanksgiving, against the Thrashers and it was Nylander.

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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
You mean what Jagr did last season right? The more and more I watch Renney operate under a more stressful situation - expectations and poor play - the more I realize how poor his decision making is. I know some other posters feel this way also.
Exactly what I've been saying.

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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
SOS -- You preach accountability: Why aren't Rozsival and Malik sitting?
Oh no, don't ask him that. He'll go on this whole spiel about how +/- is the greatest stat, and determines just how good a defenseman really is. Especially when it's Rozsival being bashed. The world falls down when Rozsival gets bashed, because the guy is Bobby Orr to him.

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Originally Posted by MisterUnspoken View Post
No we can't take away what he did last season SBOB, but we can look at a seperate body of work that includes a far better team on paper, a Jagr not scoring as much as he was last season (goals), a goaltender that looks unconfident, and a defense that is performing back to its normal skill level. Renney has shown no answer to things plaguing this team.

A) Toughness/Cohesiveness
B) Defense
C) Lundqvist
D) Accountability

If he has please point these out to me, because perhaps my irrational fan is speaking, but so far the only facet of the game that has been somewhat acceptable is the offense.
THANK YOU.

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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
How in the world can you possibly say that Malik is better than anything else right now when guys like Pock aren't playing and we have guys like Baranka in the minors who won't get a real shot right now?

Rozsival's pass in the Florida game should've gotten him 1 game riding the pine at least.

That's one of the most undiciplined, boneheaded, idiotic plays I have ever seen.
No Jon, according to some, it should get him a raise, and a pat on the back.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
One of the biggest misleading stats ever.

Who's on the ice against Roszival? Checking lines cause Jagr is usually on the ice with him. Defensive D-men too for the opposition, so Rosy doesn't see scoring lines like the rest of the defnse does throughout the game.
Here's just a small example of players who have scored against Rozsival... Jordan Staal, Rico Fata, Kris Letang, Scott Nichol, Juraj Kolnik, Mike Knuble, Patric Fischer, Michel Oullette... 3 of those players scored their first NHL goals when Rozsival was on the ice... Fischer, Staal, and Letang. Talking about Rozsival playing against "skilled players."

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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
It isn't only 1 game for Dawes. This is the 2nd or 3rd time he has been a scratch and we aren't out of the first month. Total number of Hossa scratches? 0

If Pock, a rookie, is sitting for being out there for 4 goals against the best team in the league, shouldn't Roszival sit for being out there for 3 goals against in the Pit game? I'm not sure I like that logic but if that is the standard we are throwing around, and if that is how accountability is established, well it only makes sense. I don't want this to become another Roszival thread so I hope this is used only in the context of accountability. I really don't want to see some players being held to one set of standards while others are held to different ones. It should be the same across the board regardless of the name.
Renney will never do that because he doesn't have the balls to. We need a disciplinarian to bench these guys and call up the younger, hungrier players.

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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
In regard to Dawes... I honestly think that he has no room for improvement in the AHL and just being with the big club, even if it's just in practices, is more effective towards his development than spending more time in a lower league that he already proven he can handle. He's treating Prucha exactly the same as he did all of last season, and he scored 30 goals.

Marcel Hossa, btw... is -7.

But here's the truth. None of the Rangers problems stem from personell issues. It stems from not doing the things that made them successful last season. Last season, the defensemen used their sticks (on the ice) a lot more in the defensive zone. They weren't a big group, so they had to rely on their skill and dexterity. Last season, the forwards backchecked hard. The combination of those two things led to the players playing above their on-paper skill level. They need to get back to those things. Roster decisions are what they are and a lot of times, are gut calls or based on what went on in the last practice or two. No, the teams' problems have been fundamental.
Marcel Hossa is a -7 because he's useless aside from penalty killing, which he does a merely decent job at. He doesn't backcheck hard, doesn't score, doesn't do anything aside from help kill penalties.

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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'd rather move Dawes down to the AHL and keep Hossa as a 4th liner than sit Hossa and keep Dawes as a 4th liner.

My reasoning is simple: Dawes will not benefit from 5 minutes of ice a night. He didn't dominate at the AHL level last year, and he can still round his game at that level (especially defensively). So send him down, let him develop further, and have Hossa/Orr fill the 4th line role...it's not like they're going to be hurt by those minutes.

There was a time when Hossa could have become something on this team, but his inability to stickhandle matched with his low level of offensive awareness have crippled most of the potential that he once had. If his task isn't straight forward he falters (i.e., if he has to make a decision without any precedence or instruction from the coaches he usually ****s things up).
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
Dawes hasn't been getting the ice time for a variety of reasons. Primarily, he has not been good in his own zone. Second, he gets knocked off the puck way too easily. Plus, his forte is offense, and this team isn't struggling with offense right now. They're struggling on the defensive side of the puck. Hossa has proven himself very capable in his own zone and thus is getting the ice time. Last night Renney chose to play Orr over Dawes to fill what he saw as a need to provide a little toughness, and also to give a player who's been sitting the majority of time some ice time after he spent the summer doing everything the team asked in order to improve his game. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just offering the reason for some of Renney's decisions as I see them.

Prucha's lack of ice time has been frustrating, but then I read some quotes from Prucha in today's Newsday, and it started to make a little more sense.



He's been indecisive with the puck all season, holding on to it that one extra second. It's caused him to miss a bunch of opportunities, and in the Toronto game, it cost the team a goal. While some may say he needs to more ice time to regain his confidence, there's a fine line. The team psyche as a whole is extremely fragile right now, and at this point, it's more important for the team to do what's got the best chance at getting them a couple wins under their belt (i.e. overplaying Shanny and Jagr) than it is to try to get Prucha extra ice time.

FWIW, the article with the Prucha quote can be found here:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...-rangers-print
The Dawes situation is a double edged sword. We can send him down and he rots in the minors where he really has no room for improvement... or he can stay with the big club, not get the ice time and confidence from the coach that is needed, and he doesn't score at all, and we end up wasting him like we did with Malhotra. This is where good coaching and general managing come into play.

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10-29-2006, 07:26 PM
  #53
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I've never said the +/- is the greatest stat. All +/- is for me is a guide to who was on the ice when goals are scored against.

I've never compared Rozsival to anything more than a #4 defenseman..

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10-29-2006, 07:41 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
The lack of patience for rookies is downright scary. I could believe that maybe we were getting spoiled with the likes of Prucha and Lundqvist and their immediate success, but our history of prospects should surpress thoughts like that. You simply cannot expect a first year player to smash into the league and be an impact player. Guys like Malkin and Ovechkin are special but hardly the standard for rookies. You have to give the kids time and go through the ups and downs. It is the refusal to do so that led to our penchant for aging vets and one way tickets out of town for quality prospects.

What is even scarier is the infinite patience for guys like Hossa. His defense?! You mean his worst amongst forwards -7. He is an empty jersey. And worse, he will not amount to anything yet we waste time and resources on him that would be better suited towards someone with promise. And I'm tired of the PK argument, he is 6th amongst forwards with only 1:43 per game on the pk. We are shorthanded an average of 6 times per game. Assume that works out to about 8 minutes (with ppga and penalties against the other team to end the pk) that isn't a crucial number for our success.
Is Hossa over Dawes your major gripe? How much time would Dawes get at even strength if he were playing over Hossa? I could live with Dawes over Hossa but the problem of getting Dawes enough time will still exist.

Maybe the Rangers do have a lack of patience for ROOKIES but I wouldn't exactly say they have a lack of patience with young players.

I also think you can add Hollweg and to a lesser extent Tyutin to guys we have been spoiled with. The Rangers also have Hall, Ward, and Betts as young veteran players that will either grow or be stop gaps for the next batch of kids to come along.

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10-29-2006, 07:43 PM
  #55
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I just think they are bringing Dawes along a little slower then needed, but it isnt terrible. He has had several games over 8 mins now as long as that starts to creep up till about 10 mins a game then i'm fine with him staying in NY and prac with the team. All of which he will learn from, lets see in the next 10 games, once he has shown consistancy if he gets more ice time.

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10-29-2006, 08:23 PM
  #56
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I dunno Taz...

I think that Dawes is an afterthought to winning right now and development is taking a back seat. Renney and staff are being judged on a game-by-game basis, which doesn't include how Dawes develops right now. It's human nature. Renney wants this team to get to a point where he can put in a guy like Dawes for 15 minutes and if they lose, it doesn't hurt much (even though it's likely that it wouldn't be Dawes' fault).

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10-29-2006, 11:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Is Hossa over Dawes your major gripe? How much time would Dawes get at even strength if he were playing over Hossa? I could live with Dawes over Hossa but the problem of getting Dawes enough time will still exist.

Maybe the Rangers do have a lack of patience for ROOKIES but I wouldn't exactly say they have a lack of patience with young players.

I also think you can add Hollweg and to a lesser extent Tyutin to guys we have been spoiled with. The Rangers also have Hall, Ward, and Betts as young veteran players that will either grow or be stop gaps for the next batch of kids to come along.
My major gripe is that I am seeing patterns emerge that resemble decisions that were made during the playoff drought. Namely the riding of veterans (with waaaay too much ice time) instead of bringing along the young kids with an appropriate amount of ice time. Renney himself said that rookies should get at leat 10 minutes other wise he is wasting them and hindering their development. That would satisfy me. Sure that is only a few more minutes right now but I think we would all appreciate it if he wasn't a scratch 30% of the time for Orr or if he could play on a line with someone that can complete a pass in the offensive zone.

I seem to have missed being spoiled by Tyutin... and to a lesser extent Hollweg. I think you can throw Hossa in there as a stopgap player, but by definition they should be moved aside in favor of the kids coming up. I am just not sure that the staff will view certain guys as stopgaps. I mean, Betts on the 2nd line doesn't really indicate that. We'll see.

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10-30-2006, 03:27 AM
  #58
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Obsessing about 4th liners during a losing streak is a little like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It isn't the real problem.

I think Marcel Hossa sucks, too. Colton Orr is an AHL-type goonie player and is a waste of roster space, but folks keep complaining about a lack of toughness. He is the "toughness", like it or not, for three empty minutes the rare time he suits up.

Dawes is clearly better than the both of them. But who cares? It isn't the source of the real problems. And it is highly debatable whether Dawes development is best served by barely hanging on the big club, versus logging big minutes on the AHL squad.

The real problems are many faceted, but they begin and end at the top with Jaromir Jagr. His gimpy shoulder is keeping him from the brain melting, Hart-worthy numbers from last season -- and hence there is suddenly a "lack of chemistry" on the team. Prucha would really benifit from JJ's passing acumen, since the goals aren't coming as fast and furious for either of them, but at the expense of Straka?

And the other half of what carried the team last season, Lundy in goal, is suffering the usual sophomore slump...a combination of a more suspect defense, less two-way play from the forwards and folks having had a chance to figure him out. He needs to find another level to his game to compensate, which may or may not happen.

Yes, this year's Tom Renney seems like a different guy because the team is doing different things than what seemed to contribute to last years success -- running four lines, playing team defense, having confidence in each other, playing with joyful abandon (which younger players tend to do). Those seem to be not happening nearly as much. And the team is much less fun to watch as a result, and are showing, collectively, much less heart.

But winning -- scoring more goals than you allow -- breeds that confidence in each other. And the non-stop goal machine is flying with a busted wing, the rookie protege has had too much time to think and the supernatural goalie phenom looks merely mortal at present. That can't be much of a confidence booster. And nothing kneecaps a rookie like lack of confidence.

How the 12 and 13th forwards shake out, or who plays #6 or sits at #7 on D are the least of it, really. The top guys have to play like top guys, or the whole team suffers.

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10-30-2006, 04:16 AM
  #59
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but Jagr is scoring higher point totals then last year i believe, his shot is starting to get there and this will increase his goal output. But he is nearly a 2 points per game average atm.

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10-30-2006, 05:32 AM
  #60
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He is perhaps the finest passer in the league, which I rarely hear talked about. His size, strength, scoring touch, whatever... but less so his playmaking. But he isn't the same player as last year, and the team isn't the same around him. Still waaaaay early to put a stake through the heart of this team, or Tom Renney, but there is a feeling of panic instead of pride in the air, I think, and it has a cumulative negative effect on the spirit of the team.

The Atlantic division is really odd this year, all around. But be thankful this isn't the Flyers.

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10-30-2006, 05:19 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by MyCaptain11 View Post
admittedly, i was a big fan of renney last season but even i am somewhat starting to lose faith in him.

dawes should have been given more of an opportunity display his scoring ability either with line combos or with increased time imo...especially with the 10-game window rule out there for rookies. don't leave him in the current situation like he has been so far this season.

as for prucha, the ONLY explanation i can give for his treatment so far is because he is frustratingly gun-shy about handling the puck on 5-on-3 pp's. i've seen him so hesistant to either pass into the slot or shoot, more so than the other forwards in the same spots. other than that... .

however, i am a patient human being by nature...so i'm hoping everything starts to sort itself out right now and everyone from players to coaches to management starts to come together good or bad. including "accountability".
i agree.. i liked renney but this year i am losing faith in him

i can't stand his love affair with certain players.. hossa

and how he is so hesitant to give players lacking much experience bigger roles.. dawes, pock while he holds them accountable for their mistakes he doesn't for older players (defense)

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10-30-2006, 05:38 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
i agree.. i liked renney but this year i am losing faith in him

i can't stand his love affair with certain players.. hossa

and how he is so hesitant to give players lacking much experience bigger roles.. dawes, pock while he holds them accountable for their mistakes he doesn't for older players (defense)

they dont make millions of dollars that is why. Pock cant go to the Pack so its here not playing much with the rangers and that is it, he would get claimed by a team that needs a young dman.

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10-30-2006, 07:21 PM
  #63
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Jerry...

fourth liners aren't the proble, but as bad as this team has been, if Hossa's +/- was halved, this team may have a win or two more and despite horrid play, their record wouldn't be half bad (note, I'm not starting a +/- debate, but just noting that he has zero points and has been on the ice for at least 7 goals against - when you're a fourth liner, you face other teams' fourth lines and hope they don't score that often).

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10-30-2006, 07:37 PM
  #64
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I do think that the +/- statistic, over the long haul, is indicative of one's play, but in Hossa's case I take exception. He's one of the few forwards on this team that we see backchecking consistently.

The knock on him has always been, aside from not being Marian, that he takes games off. We saw that was the case last year, when he would just coast every so often. This year, that knock has been categorically false...SO FAR.

To back what a few of you seem to be saying, I also agree that playing Nigel Dawes on the 4th line is counterproductive. His strengths will not be developed and brought out playing with Hossa and Ryan Hollweg. Give this guy time on the 2nd line adn for the love of God, get Blair Betts off of the scoring line. He's good at what he does...and he's a checking center, not a playmaker. The time is right for another Immonen audition, and I think Tom Renney is dropping the ball.

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10-30-2006, 07:49 PM
  #65
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Polako..

with many stats, +/- can be used as a tool. It only tells a person how many times they were on the ice more or less for a goal compared to against at ES and minuses for the PP. After that, everything is subject to interpretation and for me, the +/- stat alone means little. I use it negatively when talking about Rozsival's +/- because I think he was on the ice for the most against, and on for the most for, but didn't have a heck of a lot of points. I look at Hossa having zero points more than his -7, but when I look at his -7, I realize that's not what you want from your fourth liners (and he was one of the biggest minus guys last season, on a team of many pluses). He's not bad defensively though, for the most part.

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