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Critisisim of Tom Renney

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Old
10-31-2006, 01:00 PM
  #26
Edge
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I guess what it really comes down to is that I don't really know what the expectation is for this defense or what people thought they were going to get.

I mean let's be honest, are there really any surprises that couldn't be seen if looking objectivly and not through rose colored glasses that everything is okay and the way the team played for 4 months a year ago is the way things really should be as opposed to the team we've seen for nearly 8 or 9 months now?


And yes I'm gonna be cranky and blunt because frankly this is an example of how some opinions really aren't worth jack crap. If that sounds like an ego trip than so be it.

So let's break it down by popular opinion:

A. Tyutin is inconsistent.

Response: No kidding, this has been documented for years despite people who have no idea what they're talking about somehow trying to observe otherwise. Tyutin is going to be what he is, a good #3 guy who can take over games at times but most often is happy to blend in. Wake up, this is not going to change and it's the way it's been for 5 almost 6 years now at every level he's played at.

B. Aaron Ward isn't nearly as physical or shut down as I thought.

Response: No kidding, this a guy who is a depth defenseman. He's never been the defensive anchor on any team he's played on, especially the championship ones. He's the guy who quietly does his job BEHIND the other guys. But who is there to play behind here? He's a 34 year old DEPTH defenseman, and this is exactly what was trying to be said this summer when other people went 0-60 on the signing.

C. Matt Cullen is a 25 goal, 50 point player.

Response: Yes he is, and that's what you should be expecting. A guy who nicely plays behind Staal and Brindamour. If you were expecting 30-35 goals, 60-70 points and a second line center you were sadly mistaken. Once again an example of raising the bar and not realizing what you're signing.

D. Kasparitis isn't effective anymore.

Response: Now in his mid-30's with a lot of miles under the hood AND offseason surgery how can anyone be surprised he's lost so many steps? The guy is fighting father time at this point, not teams top players.

E. Malik and Roszival aren't top guys.

Reponse: Not a shocker there. Those guys are ideally bottom 6 defenseman who are being asked to be more than that. Point to all the point totals, plus/minus stats and other score sheet numbers you want. These guys overachieved last year and reality has set back in.

F. The defense is weak.
Response: It is not built properly. Too many guys who aren't all that different and who would all play the same roles (3-6 defenseman on good teams). You've essentially got 6 guys who would make great competition for #3-6 slots. But there aren't those #1 or 2 defensemen in front of them and so now you've got an entire defense that essentially playing a line higher than it should.

G. The PP doesn't work.
Response: It needs tweaking for sure, but I also think the pressures of HAVING to score is getting to them. I think that's what Jagr is talking about when he says they are to tense. Deep down they know they have to score a ton of points because the defense isn't going to keep them in the game. Once you get that into your mind, you start stressing, when you start stressing you start pressing, when you start pressing you get tense and the whole damn thing falls apart and you end up doing nothing despite your talents.

H. No one from Hartford is ready.
Response: Considering these are the kids from 04 draft it's going to take time. We knew these kids were longer term projects so we can't go all to pieces when they aren't ready at the age of 20 with a bakers dozen of pro experience under their belts.

I. Tom Renney sucks.
Response: What would you have him do with his defense? Yes there are things he can do better but look at some of the point projections of this team. Scoring is not the big issue. Renney probably isn't the guy who takes us to the next step but if you think another coach changes the reality of who is on this defense you're going to be in for disappointment.

Renney isn't a great coach, but I don't think he's worthless either and I don't know that even if he gets everything else working on this team it's enough to overcome the defense. Unless this team is going to score 6-8 goals a night, the defense is still going to kill it.

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10-31-2006, 01:23 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I. Tom Renney sucks.
Response: What would you have him do with his defense? Yes there are things he can do better but look at some of the point projections of this team. Scoring is not the big issue. Renney probably isn't the guy who takes us to the next step but if you think another coach changes the reality of who is on this defense you're going to be in for disappointment.
What can he do with the defense? These are the 8 guys he's been dealt. That fact is beyond his control.

Fans are frustrated by his odd choices Renney makes regarding factors under his control. Of the examples you gave, "The PP doesn't work" is the only one he can do something about. So if we're all in agreement that it needs "tweaking", then why not tweak it? Why continue with the same 5 players going through the same robotic motions on the ice?

Continuing with that example, what if Renney can manage to get more production from that PP, particularly 5-on-3's? Improve just that aspect of the game alone and suddlenly, these games are a lot closer than they have been. A suspect blueline shouldn't keep the team from competing altogether.

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10-31-2006, 01:25 PM
  #28
Larry Melnyk
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EDGE - Actually, it's not some opinions that really aren't worth jack crap, it's ALL opinions, especially mine

Still, I always maintained from the last year and the summer that the D scared the beejeezus out of me...Wanted nothing to do with OZO, Rachunek (as wretched as his first stint) and had questions about all the others (where the iconsistenicies of Tyutin (which can easily change--he's only 23) are the least of our worries)..And thought the help from the Minors/juniors was a year away...

Agreed on Ward too..Not who I wanted to sign...Thought we could have done much better..At least he was only signed for two years and he is a capable 2nd pair D-man

However I honestly didn't expect Kaspar to fall off THIS FAST and thought he would play a decent non-1st pair role on the team...But he's overmatched now, be it from injuries, age, lack of speed, all three..AND the defense is even worse then I thought it could be because you throw in the erosion of the play of Malik and Rosy (they did generally fine last year) on top of Kaspar's decline and the expected other play

it really doesn't look internally fixable but, at the least, Renney has to identify his best options from within and any trade that might help

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10-31-2006, 01:26 PM
  #29
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But yeah, I still think it's too early to panic. One little 4 game win streak and you're back atop the division at any point - it's not like anyone will severely run away with it IMO
I think youre right that no one will run away with it ... as far as a "little 4 game win streak" goes...

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10-31-2006, 01:36 PM
  #30
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I think youre right that no one will run away with it ... as far as a "little 4 game win streak" goes...


You can't be so pessimistic

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10-31-2006, 01:38 PM
  #31
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Is it ok to be disgruntled? I'm one pissed off Rangers fan. I mean so much optimism going into the season and now, BAM back to the seven year drought?

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10-31-2006, 01:46 PM
  #32
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Edge...

one correction, or at least differing opinion - in regards to Cullen, he's scored 25 goals once, I believe, and about 18 another time. He's almost 30, or is 30 - I'm not ready to say he's a 25 goal scorer just yet.

As for the rest - those are basically my EXACT expectations. It's basically what I thought last year in preseason and still think now (in some respects).

Larry - it isn't fixable internally, but I think it could be better internally. To win a playoff round, the Rangers will have to look outside the organization. To get to the playoffs, they can make do with what they have in NY and in the system. What's frustrating for me is that at the end of the season I thought this team needed help on defense and a second line center (one who can take over for Nylander) - thought scoring from the wing was an issue too, but Shanny is more than fine for that position. Sather decided not to spend the money, which may or may not have been wise (committing to $3.3MM for Kaspar last season for three years and Ozo at $2.75MM for this year is over $6MM in cap space that could've been used more wisely).

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10-31-2006, 01:53 PM
  #33
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Edge...

the projected point totals really amaze me. It's almost as if they ran up the score a couple times and/or scored some garbage goals in games that were out of hand because so many points just didn't seem meaningful. While defense is this team's number one problem, I think this team may've won a couple more/changed the outcome if the offense came out, skated hard, turned the puck over (alleviated pressure from the defense) and scored early to get on top. That masked the defensive problems last season, but it's not getting done this season. This team does not look good 5-on-5. Teams seemed to have figured out Jagr and the down low cycle has become almost non-existent. As well, the offensive flow is missing.

For me it's tough to really explain. You see a guy like Sykora put up points, but in the games, he often seemed to do very little if he didn't score. He may score a goal and you'd come away thinking he didn't do much. Similar to like a Sergei Berezin, who once scored 37 goals but really wasn't helpful. For me, goals are a result of hard work, and that hard work is cumulative. You need to wear down defenses and goalies, which sometimes will allow that soft goal to go in. It's not always the best play or shot that gets the goal. That's what's missing. That sustainable pressure. The consecutive good shifts in the offensive zone.

And again - please let me reiterate that that does not absolve the defense one bit. It's pathetic. Even when I see guys are pluses on this team I state it's despite them. They are flat-out not playing well. They get beat routinely. They skate around without purpose. They don't cover the front of the net. Positionally, they're a mess (something Renney should be able to correct to an extent - Poti's defense would be an improvement to this bunch).

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10-31-2006, 01:54 PM
  #34
Larry Melnyk
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Fletch - No arguements whatsoever..With one caveat, if you identify the best internal cnadidates for defense and get them playing cohesive hockey with the forwards(This all falls on Renney), I think you still have the chance for a PO win or two or three, especially with an outside move...The Hurricanes showed you didn't have to have stellar D-men to win the Cup..

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10-31-2006, 01:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Fletch - No arguements whatsoever..With one caveat, if you identify the best internal cnadidates for defense and get them playing cohesive hockey with the forwards(This all falls on Renney), I think you still have the chance for a PO win or two or three, especially with an outside move...The Hurricanes showed you didn't have to have stellar D-men to win the Cup..


No, they had D-men that could all carry the puck and make plays with it. I'm repeating myself but this is a huge problem with our defense. How hard is it for opposing players to figure out that our defenders don't support the puck, they play pinball with it and hope something just works.


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10-31-2006, 02:00 PM
  #36
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That's the thing, Larry...

I think you can get to the playoffs internally. Winning would require the Lundqvist and Jagr pre-Olympics last year, and Shanny to continue this play. If that all goes, then there's a shot. One kink in any of those three and there's no shot. With an outside move, depending on what it is, there is a chance. That is, if Sather's a lion. If he tries to find someone on the cheap, he may not be as lucky (not advocating a big trade - just stating the realities of where I think this team is currently).

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10-31-2006, 02:20 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
No, they had D-men that could all carry the puck and make plays with it. I'm repeating myself but this is a huge problem with our defense. How hard is it for opposing players to figure out that our defenders don't support the puck, they play pinball with it and hope something just works.
I agree that our puck moving could be better, and I'm not crazy about our internal options right now..But it's not like Commodore, Ward, Wallin and Wesley were great puck movers...They did it all within the team concept..And that's what we gotta straigten out...

FLETCH -Totally agree...

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10-31-2006, 02:35 PM
  #38
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Carolina's d last year...

was a bit better than the Rangers in terms of personnel. They won because they had a guy like Brindy, who was on his game, and who can shutdown top lines while scoring. They had depth at forward aside from the top line, and their goaltender hit his stride in the playoffs. Everything came together at the right time for them (and they even got by without the help of a 40 goal scorer, for the most part).

Something similar can happen for the Rangers, but of course everything would have to come together at the right time (and even then, I don't think the Rangers' forward depth is as good, and the defense, while not far off, is a bit below).

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10-31-2006, 02:40 PM
  #39
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was a bit better than the Rangers in terms of personnel. They won because they had a guy like Brindy, who was on his game, and who can shutdown top lines while scoring. They had depth at forward aside from the top line, and their goaltender hit his stride in the playoffs. Everything came together at the right time for them (and they even got by without the help of a 40 goal scorer, for the most part).

Something similar can happen for the Rangers, but of course everything would have to come together at the right time (and even then, I don't think the Rangers' forward depth is as good, and the defense, while not far off, is a bit below).
I'm not saying otherwise vis a vis Carolina and the Rangers...But their personnel wasn't amazing, their teamwork and chemistry was.....They also picked up Weight and Recchi at the trade deadline which really helped make themn a deep team and allowed everybody to play their proper role---which is not happening in NY.....

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10-31-2006, 02:55 PM
  #40
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I do agree, Larry...

I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.

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10-31-2006, 02:55 PM
  #41
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First they blamed defense. They still do, but now they also blame Renney. Next they will blame Sather and... here we go again. I blame the fans. Can we get different ones? No? Too bad then team has to change. Is it difficult as well? Yes? Let's blame someone!!! It is easy to change one person. Just do not blame Lundqvist, since we all like him. Let's go after Renney and his miserable defense.

C'mon now, we were outplayed by Kings. Not because we were bad, but because they were good. They won't play like that every game, they were on drugs. I don't expect ANY team to play like that any time soon. Next game our guys will come in strong. What I liked is that Lundqvist played a solid 20 minutes plus 40 an ok minutes. That is big thing, IMO. He can build on that, mark my words. I'd like Renney to start him next game and have Weeks to tend the goal on the last game of road trip. Henke is not tired he is obviously rusty. Let's see some games before panic and write the coach off.

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10-31-2006, 02:56 PM
  #42
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The Kings are good?

I think that's the first time I've heard that.

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10-31-2006, 02:57 PM
  #43
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Listen, I think its way too early to talk about getting rid of Tom Renney. he did an excellent job last year.

1. Lundquist has to play better. We cant give up 1 to 2 soft goals a game.

2. Rozival, Malik and Rachunek have to make better decisions or be sat down.
I havent seen too many mistakes from Pock and Baranka looked great in preseason. If these vets dont shape up, they may have to be waived.

3. Play Nigel Dawes and give him minutes. Nigel definatley has skills. Marcel Hossa is a waste. Waive him.

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10-31-2006, 02:58 PM
  #44
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I think that's the first time I've heard that.
No, like he said they were on drugs

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10-31-2006, 03:07 PM
  #45
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First they blamed defense. They still do, but now they also blame Renney.
Considering the amount of giveaways and overall inept play, why are you the only one that has expected the defensemen to get a free ride? As for Renney, from the undisciplined play, to not coming out prepared to play at all, to the seeming lack of ability to change the gameplan, to the completely bizarre line combinations and the seeming fear of trying out someone from Hartford, what did you really expect?

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10-31-2006, 03:10 PM
  #46
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Listen, I think its way too early to talk about getting rid of Tom Renney. he did an excellent job last year.
No one is talking about getting rid of him. As already stated, while Sather is at the helm, Renney is going nowhere. Nor should he. He does need to be given the benefit of the doubt. However, when his "excellent job" was riding the coattails of Henke & Jagr it is hard not to see that his actual, you know, "coaching" leaves something to be desired.

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10-31-2006, 03:14 PM
  #47
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My problems with Renney are..

1. Putting players in a postion to fail not succeed. We can go down the list..

A. Betts on the second line

B. Prucha not getting any meaningful time. Fletch earlier in the year brought up Prucha killing penalties. I've brought up that Prucha can be used instead of Nylander on the first power play. (forget the point guys that's not the REAL problem on the power play because Jagr is the QB)

C. Not using the checking line players we have the right way. There is no reason a Cullen Betts Ward line can't be used as a full fledged checking line.

D. Not knowing when to quit with certain guys. I like Hossa and I think he could be a player but it's time to cut the cord. We need a fourth line that establishes the forecheck. We had it last year with the HMO line and we need something like that again. I would think about calling up Byers and Falardeau to play with Hollweg..

I read somebody the other day say this is Sathers last coach with the Rangers. I got tell you I think last season bought Sather more time with Dolan and could see a coaching change if things don't improve by Jan 1.

It's way to early to call for Renneys head (not to early to spell out his flaws however)

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10-31-2006, 03:21 PM
  #48
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My problems with Renney are..

B. Prucha not getting any meaningful time. Fletch earlier in the year brought up Prucha killing penalties. I've brought up that Prucha can be used instead of Nylander on the first power play. (forget the point guys that's not the REAL problem on the power play because Jagr is the QB)
I think it is a problem when you're giving your PP QB inferior weapons to utilize his talents. I'm not asking for a Zubov or Leetch circa '94, but what we have now is below average.

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10-31-2006, 03:25 PM
  #49
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I think it is a problem when you're giving your PP QB inferior weapons to utilize his talents. I'm not asking for a Zubov or Leetch circa '94, but what we have now is below average.
I agree but our talent upfront makes up for that a bit.

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10-31-2006, 03:25 PM
  #50
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Considering the amount of giveaways and overall inept play, why are you the only one that has expected the defensemen to get a free ride? As for Renney, from the undisciplined play, to not coming out prepared to play at all, to the seeming lack of ability to change the gameplan, to the completely bizarre line combinations and the seeming fear of trying out someone from Hartford, what did you really expect?
Sure there is the reason for everything. I don't find it valid. He is not school teacher or parent that sees failure to do the home work. If you show the effort Kings had last night, you won't last very long. Crowford sad "we have to play every game like that". Dream on. "Lack of ability to change the game plan"? Where did you see change of the game plan? What sport? Only in baseball it could be tried. Hockey is not a baseball with one-on-one managing. It is more like football. Once you outcoached there is not much you can do during the game.

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