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Buf/Van and Buf/NYI proposals

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:05 PM
  #1
Jame
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Buf/Van and Buf/NYI proposals

To Van: Satan, Brown,
To Buf: Allen, Cooke, 1st

From what I understand Van is looking for a top 6 forward and Satan is certainly that. Allen is a very good young defensmen, but Van has depth on the blueline. Cooke is a favorite in Van, and would be missed. but you have to give to get. Brown is slightly more talented offensively but no where near as gritty.

To NYI: Tallinder
To Buf: Cairns, 3rd

Buffalo adds much needed toughness and blue line size. Tallinder is young, talented, inexpensive, but very rough around the edges. he can develop into a 3/4 dman.

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11-21-2003, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To Van: Satan, Brown,
To Buf: Allen, Cooke, 1st

From what I understand Van is looking for a top 6 forward and Satan is certainly that. Allen is a very good young defensmen, but Van has depth on the blueline. Cooke is a favorite in Van, and would be missed. but you have to give to get. Brown is slightly more talented offensively but no where near as gritty.
Not bad. In the off-season, this may have looked better though.

I really don't think Allen is going anywhere. I think he is in the canucks' long-term plans. He is really coming into his own this year.

And with the great start from Jason King, we're not looking for a top 6 guy anymore.

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To NYI: Tallinder
To Buf: Cairns, 3rd

Buffalo adds much needed toughness and blue line size. Tallinder is young, talented, inexpensive, but very rough around the edges. he can develop into a 3/4 dman.
Despite Tallinder's regression so far this season, he's worth a bit more than this IMHO. Troubling how he went from the future of the Sabres backend to Cairns return in only 20 games. Campbell for Cairns would be a nice deal for Buffalo.

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11-21-2003, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To Van: Satan, Brown,
To Buf: Allen, Cooke, 1st

From what I understand Van is looking for a top 6 forward and Satan is certainly that. Allen is a very good young defensmen, but Van has depth on the blueline. Cooke is a favorite in Van, and would be missed. but you have to give to get. Brown is slightly more talented offensively but no where near as gritty.
With Jason King and the Sedins playing awesome hockey, and Satan playing like crap, I'd have to say no thanks to this one. In the offseason, I probably would've jumped on it though...

I'd have to agree with impossibles on Allen, he's starting to look like a keeper for the Canucks. And I don't even have to mention how important Cooke is. The fact is, scoring is the least of the Canucks worries right now.

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11-21-2003, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To NYI: Tallinder
To Buf: Cairns, 3rd

Buffalo adds much needed toughness and blue line size. Tallinder is young, talented, inexpensive, but very rough around the edges. he can develop into a 3/4 dman.
Tallinder and Timander as defense partners...I love it! :p

I don't know why Buffalo would though?...isn't young,talented and inexpensive right up Buffalo's alley?

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11-21-2003, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To Van: Satan, Brown,
To Buf: Allen, Cooke, 1st

From what I understand Van is looking for a top 6 forward and Satan is certainly that. Allen is a very good young defensmen, but Van has depth on the blueline. Cooke is a favorite in Van, and would be missed. but you have to give to get. Brown is slightly more talented offensively but no where near as gritty.
Vancouver is overpaying here IMO.

Allen + 1st = Satan
Cooke > Brown
And according to Nucks fans: Cooke >>> Brown

The Sabres should pursue Allen or Cooke.

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Vancouver is overpaying here IMO.

Allen + 1st = Satan
Cooke > Brown
And according to Nucks fans: Cooke >>> Brown

The Sabres should pursue Allen or Cooke.
I don't think Vancouver is overpaying. I think it comes down to what a team needs and/or values. It comes down to a 60-70 pt top line winger and a 40 pt 3rd line center for a solid, yet soon to be stud dman and a top notch checking center. If Vancouver is all set on their top scoring lines then the deal is worthless to them. If Buffalo didnt desperately need some blueine help and grittiness then the trade wouldnt be so good for them. I was under the assumption (my bad) that vancouver was looking for a top 6 forward. I dont think Vancouver could get a better package for Allen and Cooke, but if they arent looking for a top 6 forward then it doesnt matter.

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11-21-2003, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Despite Tallinder's regression so far this season, he's worth a bit more than this IMHO. Troubling how he went from the future of the Sabres backend to Cairns return in only 20 games. Campbell for Cairns would be a nice deal for Buffalo.
Agreed he should be worth more, but i am of the opinion that you have to give to get. For the most part i think it better to give a player that "could be" for a player that is proven to be what we need right now. Some fans always seem to be enamored with players that "could be", and more often than not these same players fall into the "couldve been" category. that being said. If Milbury would take Campbell for Cairns id dance in the streets.

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:40 PM
  #9
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Right now, the Canucks aren't in the market for a top 6.

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11-21-2003, 09:51 PM
  #10
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Satan's "in a slump" for sure, but that's still not enough to give for Satan. He's a damn good player, and one of their marketable stars w/ a cool name.

Buffalo can't afford to lose him.

We really shouldn't be trading Cooke either.

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Old
11-21-2003, 09:51 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
I think it comes down to what a team needs and/or values.
Agreed. I've just come to the realization that Satan is vastly overrated...especially around these boards. (See above)

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11-21-2003, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Agreed. I've just come to the realization that Satan is vastly overrated...especially around these boards. (See above)
I feel that Satan is overrated when he's playing well and underrated when he's playing bad. he's really just somewhere in the middle of all that.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:04 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Allen + 1st = Satan
Not really, it's more like Allen + 1st << Satan. If it were another team's 1st rounder maybe it would be fair, but the Canuck's pick is going to be around the 25 spot. So, essentially it would be Satan for Allen and a good prospect. IMO, the Canucks easily win that trade, regardless of trading off Cooke with Brown.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Not really, it's more like Allen + 1st << Satan. If it were another team's 1st rounder maybe it would be fair, but the Canuck's pick is going to be around the 25 spot. So, essentially it would be Satan for Allen and a good prospect. IMO, the Canucks easily win that trade, regardless of trading off Cooke with Brown.
thats how i saw it too. ive learned that the trade doesnt make sense for vancouver as it doesnt address their needs. but i maintain its more than fair value wise. i doubt vancouver would see a better offer for those two.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
I feel that Satan is overrated when he's playing well and underrated when he's playing bad. he's really just somewhere in the middle of all that.
Heh, exactly how I feel. Good call.

Okay, I'm one of the major 'Buffalo & Vancouver make good trading partners' guys, and I've been saying for over 2 years now that the Canucks should have picked up JP Dumont before he goes and turns into a player. Look at him now! To quote a decent Swedish retro-rock band: 'Hate to say I told you so!'. But wait, I don't, since you guys still have him!

The problem with Satan here is threefold:

#1 - He isn't playing well right now (not a huge deal)
#2 - His new contract (don't have the figures in front of me, it's around $4.5 million, is it not?) is a tough sell for Burke. After giving Bertuzzi a $3 million dollar raise already, Crawford is probobly going to be resigned longterm and most good coaches these days make around $800k - $1 million (you can expect he gets that amount), and now Cooke's agent & the Canucks are apperantly talking extension.. the money here in Vancouver you've got to believe is tight. This is a team that had a sub $30 million dollar payroll a scant 4/5 years ago *with* Mark Messier.
#3 - With Jason King now in the fold and playing well, the need for a 'top 6 right winger' seems to not be an issue at the moment.

I'm not saying that the Canucks wouldn't hear out an offer, but I'm saying I don't think the Canucks would be terribly interested in aquiring Satan, mostly due to his contract, but partially for the other two reasons.

Aquiring Cooke is a tough sell, and most of the league knows it. This guy is one of the most underpaid players in the league at ~$500k per season, and while he is due for a fair raise ($900k - $1.2 at least), his value is still super high, both to the team and value around the league.

Allen is the tough one. There are those in Vancouver that still don't like this kid and want him shipped out. However, Crawford is playing him much more now (he played 20 minutes a night against the Detroit Red Wings, and against a couple other teams), Burke still speaks of him as if he's the future of the blueline.. and he's begining to play like a young Mattias Ohlund. His value this off season was around a 2nd round pick no doubt, but right now, I think you'd be real hard pressed to find the Canucks interested in trading him under any circumstances.

That said, I do think a Buffalo deal could certainly happen. Who could we trade? The usual suspects in RJ Umberger, our 1st round pick, and other signed prospects could certainly be dealt. I believe Brent Sopel could very well be on the block. This is not to say that many Canuck fans won't disagree with me, especially after his good game against Chicago. But I'm sure that Burke can't be too pleased with Brent so far into the season. He's been very average, and by Sopel's standards, that isn't nearly good enough. But still, Sopel is better than about half of Buffalo's blueline (or so).

I think RJ Umberger & Sopel could be packaged together for an upgrade on defense. Preferably a guy who can play the right side with Ohlund, though there could be talk that Allen moves over to the left and Salo moves up with Ohlund (I think that'd be fantastic), and the Canucks get a guy to play with Allen on the 3rd pairing.

Any ideas?

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11-21-2003, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

I think RJ Umberger & Sopel could be packaged together for an upgrade on defense. Preferably a guy who can play the right side with Ohlund, though there could be talk that Allen moves over to the left and Salo moves up with Ohlund (I think that'd be fantastic), and the Canucks get a guy to play with Allen on the 3rd pairing.
I completely agree with this, good post Mizral. I've been thinking for a long time that trading Umberger and Sopel for a Top 4 defensive defenseman is very possible. I think that is the piece the Canucks need the most, they can afford to lose Sopel with the amount of offense they have on the blueline. Finding Ohlund a good partner should be a priority for Burke, it would be nice to throw and Ohlund pair out there, and come back with Jovo/Salo. Perferbally a right handed shot defenseman back for Sopel, considering we only have one other RH shot on defense in Salo. It would be a lot easier defensively against some of the deeper teams in the west. I just never feel comfortable with Sopel out there, I would be much more comfortable with a solid defensive defenseman out there with Ohlund against other teams top lines. I feel Allen could be that guy, but not quite yet, he's good on the third pairing, and shouldn't be forced to play against other teams top lines quite yet.

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Old
11-21-2003, 10:41 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Heh, exactly how I feel. Good call.

Okay, I'm one of the major 'Buffalo & Vancouver make good trading partners' guys, and I've been saying for over 2 years now that the Canucks should have picked up JP Dumont before he goes and turns into a player. Look at him now! To quote a decent Swedish retro-rock band: 'Hate to say I told you so!'. But wait, I don't, since you guys still have him!

The problem with Satan here is threefold:

#1 - He isn't playing well right now (not a huge deal)
#2 - His new contract (don't have the figures in front of me, it's around $4.5 million, is it not?) is a tough sell for Burke. After giving Bertuzzi a $3 million dollar raise already, Crawford is probobly going to be resigned longterm and most good coaches these days make around $800k - $1 million (you can expect he gets that amount), and now Cooke's agent & the Canucks are apperantly talking extension.. the money here in Vancouver you've got to believe is tight. This is a team that had a sub $30 million dollar payroll a scant 4/5 years ago *with* Mark Messier.
#3 - With Jason King now in the fold and playing well, the need for a 'top 6 right winger' seems to not be an issue at the moment.

I'm not saying that the Canucks wouldn't hear out an offer, but I'm saying I don't think the Canucks would be terribly interested in aquiring Satan, mostly due to his contract, but partially for the other two reasons.

Aquiring Cooke is a tough sell, and most of the league knows it. This guy is one of the most underpaid players in the league at ~$500k per season, and while he is due for a fair raise ($900k - $1.2 at least), his value is still super high, both to the team and value around the league.

Allen is the tough one. There are those in Vancouver that still don't like this kid and want him shipped out. However, Crawford is playing him much more now (he played 20 minutes a night against the Detroit Red Wings, and against a couple other teams), Burke still speaks of him as if he's the future of the blueline.. and he's begining to play like a young Mattias Ohlund. His value this off season was around a 2nd round pick no doubt, but right now, I think you'd be real hard pressed to find the Canucks interested in trading him under any circumstances.

That said, I do think a Buffalo deal could certainly happen. Who could we trade? The usual suspects in RJ Umberger, our 1st round pick, and other signed prospects could certainly be dealt. I believe Brent Sopel could very well be on the block. This is not to say that many Canuck fans won't disagree with me, especially after his good game against Chicago. But I'm sure that Burke can't be too pleased with Brent so far into the season. He's been very average, and by Sopel's standards, that isn't nearly good enough. But still, Sopel is better than about half of Buffalo's blueline (or so).

I think RJ Umberger & Sopel could be packaged together for an upgrade on defense. Preferably a guy who can play the right side with Ohlund, though there could be talk that Allen moves over to the left and Salo moves up with Ohlund (I think that'd be fantastic), and the Canucks get a guy to play with Allen on the 3rd pairing.

Any ideas?
Agree with basically everything. I think that Buffalo and Vancouver were ideal trading partners in August-September. Now it may not be the case, depending on how Vancouver views King.

I really like Cooke's game, problem is so do 28 other teams, and Crawford may be his biggest fan. I like Allen, but from what I saw of him (early last season and only a couple times due to being a healthy scratch) he was what I thought he would be- strong, good hitter. But I thought his lateral movement and agility was a bit slow. Not sure if that is from his injury or just adjsuting to NHL speed. Would help my opinion of this trade- and the BUF-VAN situation, if you could clarify.

 
Old
11-21-2003, 10:45 PM
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I think Zhitnik, if he were making closer to $2 million than $4 million, would be the perfect fit in Vancouver.

Unfortunatly, he does make too much money for what he does, and I don't see Burke having even a mild interest in him.

McKee would be a definate possibility from a Canucks standpoint, but him being a left-side man might be an issue.

Sopel fills a lot of needs in Buffalo. Right-shot defenseman, shoots a lot, good point getter but not nearly as bad as, say Delmore on defense, but bigger than, say, Campbell.

I think an Umberger & Sopel for McKee deal is what I would look at as the most interesting from a Canucks standpoint and the value is decent. McKee I hear isn't playing very well though? And how much moolah does he make?

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11-21-2003, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mizral

Okay, I'm one of the major 'Buffalo & Vancouver make good trading partners' guys, and I've been saying for over 2 years now that the Canucks should have picked up JP Dumont before he goes and turns into a player. Look at him now! To quote a decent Swedish retro-rock band: 'Hate to say I told you so!'. But wait, I don't, since you guys still have him!



With the way JP is playing with Hecht and Briere, I don't think Buffalo would move him right now.

 
Old
11-22-2003, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
Vancouver is overpaying here IMO.

Allen + 1st = Satan
Cooke > Brown
And according to Nucks fans: Cooke >>> Brown

The Sabres should pursue Allen or Cooke.
i'm a Canucks fan and i don't think we'd be overpaying.

our 1st would likely (hopefully) not be a top-20 pick. Allen although a good, young defensemen.. won't be a premier player like Satan. Cooke is the real asset going back to Buffalo.

i'd see it as

Cooke + 1st < Satan
Allen > Brown (in terms of asset value)

---------------

with that being said i will agree with everybody and saying this proposal is 3 months too late. in the offseason it would have been ideal before we would have had Jason King come out of nowhere, and Bertuzzi sign a new deal which increased his salary drastically.

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11-22-2003, 07:10 AM
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As

an isles fan, where can i sign up..

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11-22-2003, 07:16 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by LaVal575
i'm a Canucks fan and i don't think we'd be overpaying.

our 1st would likely (hopefully) not be a top-20 pick. Allen although a good, young defensemen.. won't be a premier player like Satan.
I just don't buy into the "holier than thou" (no pun intended) status of Satan like most posters around here. I'm a huge Sabres fan, but Satan is no "premiere player" plain and simple. On most teams, he's a second line winger...and has actually been that for part of this season on Buffalo. If he's not scoring, he's a waste. I'd take Allen and Cooke for Satan and his 4.5 mil and run for the hills. I'm sick and tired of soft, streaky wingers...

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11-22-2003, 07:25 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame
To Van: Satan, Brown,
To Buf: Allen, Cooke, 1st

From what I understand Van is looking for a top 6 forward and Satan is certainly that. Allen is a very good young defensmen, but Van has depth on the blueline. Cooke is a favorite in Van, and would be missed. but you have to give to get. Brown is slightly more talented offensively but no where near as gritty.

To NYI: Tallinder
To Buf: Cairns, 3rd

Buffalo adds much needed toughness and blue line size. Tallinder is young, talented, inexpensive, but very rough around the edges. he can develop into a 3/4 dman.
tallinder aint goin, his good, mobile, a work in progress yes, but still worth keeping. he could be top 2 imo, especially for us.

maybe:
VAN: Satan and a 2nd
BUF:Allen and Cooke

but not brown, his one of a few old sabres left, and 1 who could lead. his a fan favourite for his excellent defensive play and hard work. but cooke isnt a scorer, but he might help,either way its unlikely to happen, but a proposal i dont mind

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11-22-2003, 07:29 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
I just don't buy into the "holier than thou" (no pun intended) status of Satan like most posters around here. I'm a huge Sabres fan, but Satan is no "premiere player" plain and simple. On most teams, he's a second line winger...and has actually been that for part of this season on Buffalo. If he's not scoring, he's a waste. I'd take Allen and Cooke for Satan and his 4.5 mil and run for the hills. I'm sick and tired of soft, streaky wingers...
satan is a franchise winger capable of putting 70+ points up consistantly, he would be 2nd line RW on nucks, but does anyone seriously think anyone in the NHL could break that top line? thought not.mayber foresberg/thorton at center, but wingers no.

his a half decent PKer, his streaky yeh, but thru the streakyness his still put up 30+ goals and 70+ points. his an ELITE sniper and an allstar, dont forget, he is an allstar.

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11-22-2003, 07:34 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresRule
tallinder aint goin, his good, mobile, a work in progress yes, but still worth keeping. he could be top 2 imo, especially for us.

maybe:
VAN: Satan and a 2nd
BUF:Allen and Cooke

but not brown, his one of a few old sabres left, and 1 who could lead. his a fan favourite for his excellent defensive play and hard work. but cooke isnt a scorer, but he might help,either way its unlikely to happen, but a proposal i dont mind
Make it a 4th or 5th and I'd go for it. Cooke has averaged around 35 points the last three seasons and was a +21 last year. He plays the agitator role but is certainly capable offensively...and he can play both wings. A very nice player at 25 yoa and 525K.

That said, the Nucks won't deal him.

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