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What is it with all the Rivet/Souray hatred?

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Old
10-20-2006, 10:10 PM
  #1
calebj3000
 
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What is it with all the Rivet/Souray hatred?

Rivet and Souray are both GREAT leaders and they are both good defencemen. They are assistant captains on our team. Reading this board the last couple of days, you would think that they were the worst players ever. You guys underrate them very much and seem to forget that it is still early in the season. Sure, Rivet may have struggled so far, but the guy is playing hurt. He knows our defence corps is depleted and he is toughing it out to help the team. and souray is not as bad defensively as (nearly) everyone makes him out to be.

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10-20-2006, 10:12 PM
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Bah..don't let the baseless rants of a couple loons throw you off...


The lot of us recognise what they bring to the table


Last edited by GoneAway: 10-20-2006 at 10:18 PM.
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Old
10-20-2006, 10:12 PM
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Mike8
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Often times Souray and Rivet are asked to perform duties above their head. As such, they get caught on the ice and look a little dumbfounded as the opposition's top line dances through them.

So some individuals notice this and think they know what the problem is in Montreal. Clearly, it's not a lack of minute-eating defensemen, but rather Souray and Rivet's fault. Forget that they've been incredibly useful and productive when they're playing within their element, and that they're not being paid like top-pairing defensemen.

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10-20-2006, 10:14 PM
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Le Maroons
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It's just that Streit and Bouillon are so much better. Rivet is good, but he should retire. Souray is good offensively but he should be scratched when Bouillon comes back. That way we can have our 2 best dmen in the lineup (Bouillon and Streit, of course).

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10-20-2006, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Le Maroons View Post
It's just that Streit and Bouillon are so much better. Rivet is good, but he should retire. Souray is good offensively but he should be scratched when Bouillon comes back. That way we can have our 2 best dmen in the lineup (Bouillon and Streit, of course).

best post. ever.

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10-20-2006, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by calebj3000 View Post
Rivet and Souray are both GREAT leaders and they are both good defencemen. They are assistant captains on our team. Reading this board the last couple of days, you would think that they were the worst players ever. You guys underrate them very much and seem to forget that it is still early in the season. Sure, Rivet may have struggled so far, but the guy is playing hurt. He knows our defence corps is depleted and he is toughing it out to help the team. and souray is not as bad defensively as (nearly) everyone makes him out to be.
there will always be whipping boys in montreal....

forget about souray and rivet... can you believe that michael ryder gets some flack too?

if you got back in time, it was brisebois, turgeon, malakhov, theodore.... it will never end

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Old
10-20-2006, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calebj3000 View Post
Rivet and Souray are both GREAT leaders and they are both good defencemen. They are assistant captains on our team. Reading this board the last couple of days, you would think that they were the worst players ever. You guys underrate them very much and seem to forget that it is still early in the season. Sure, Rivet may have struggled so far, but the guy is playing hurt. He knows our defence corps is depleted and he is toughing it out to help the team. and souray is not as bad defensively as (nearly) everyone makes him out to be.
Its simple, I'm nervous when they are both on the ice. I'm nervous when they are on the ice 5v5, I'm nervous when they are on the ice on the PK and I'm nervous when the opposing team's PK put pressure on either Souray or Rivet on the point (especially Souray who has trouble handling the puck up close).

I'm not nervous with the Markov-Komisarek tandem and I'm surprisingly not nervous with either the Streit-Niinimaa or Dandenault-Niinimaa tandem (and that is for me one of the year's surprise).

I appreciate their leadership and, while they can be physical, are not the dangerous checker they are made to be.

Rivet does an honest job and is a valuable defensemen in our core. The key to his game is to keep it simple. The problems he had before the lockout happened because he tried to do too much and took himself out of the play. Last season he played within his limits and did a good job. I don't think his place is on the PP because he's simply not an offensive defenseman and I believe we have to keep his minutes in a certain range for him to be effective. I'd like Rivet to just be a simple stay-at-home defenseman. I'd like him to realise he's not a top shutdown guy and that he can't be Scott Stevens (I don't think he times his bodychecks well enough). He can be very valuable without being "gamebreaking". He can have an "A" to his sweater and still bring leadership without stretching his game too far. At this point, I'm not looking for more performance, I'm looking for balance.

Souray is another matter. He had a lot of trouble adjusting last year because a lot of his game depended on working the lumber. He has an increadible shot but I'd like him to be more precise. Don't try to break the glass, just try to hit the net. Check Niinimaa's shot. Its usually a low velocity balloon or knuckleball but it gets right in the crease or rebound in the traffic in front of the net. There are other ways to be helpfull on the point than trying to annihilate the boards. Besides, it scares your teamates away from the crease (please refer to Dryden's description of Robinson's shot early on in his masterpiece "The Game" for more info... I remember there used to be a funny tidbit about Robinson trying to kill his teamates in a similar fashion.)

We all understand Souray is very ordinary in his defensive role. He has a good presence to him but he seems to have poor defensive awareness (lets guys creep in his back, focusing too much on the puck carrier..,) and he sometimes take bad decisions (he is especially exposed 1vs1... taking the body when he is supposed to go for the puck, going for the puck when he would be better off taking the body). He need a guy with the mobility to fix things up when something bad happens.

Which is why I am so worried when both Rivet and Souray are on the ice at the same time. They get prime spots because they are veterans and are used as a shutdown duo but they would play a much better game if they are broken up and paired with the guys which are junior to them in the team (Streit/Niinimaa/Dandenault) but present a different game.

Basically, I think the core problem is that we try to put them in roles which fits them badly only because they are the defensemen with the most experience. It can be wrong to put years of service ahead of ability. I don't say they are bad defensemen... I say they must be teamed up with a guy that's going to fill in for their mistakes, not compound them.

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Old
10-20-2006, 11:08 PM
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THere are hockey fans out there that are really negative thinkers. They always need to blame someone for a goal and especially a loss. SOmetimes a team wins because they played great! Sometimes a team scores a goal cause they made a great move. SImple as that. Spezza scored a beauty last year with skill, not from a defensive blunder. Souray is a hell of a D man. If Spezza's goal was not sooo amazing then it would not have been on replays 4000 times. ANd if it was not on the TV so much no one, and I mean no one would be talking about Souray and we would be giving this guy ***** loads of credit for playing so hard with 13 wrist surgeries behing him.

As for Rivet its a little different, he has put his soul on the line for years for us, so alot of us hardcore fans still feel gratitude for him. However from my point of view his game is nowhere near his salary. 2.5 range is for a layer that can bring something special to the table. SOuray deserves that for his shot alone. That shot will win us alot of games this year. But Rivets game has always been about effort and desire even when he was 25 and fresh. HE has never been great with the puck and has always been flat footed IFO the net. Rivet would be best used as a 6 maybe 7th d man and a team like Anaheim where they have a couple of stars playing 30 mins a game. There is no time for loyalty in hockey and Im sure Bob is aware of this. Great guy, great teammate but unless we have room for another Assisstant coah Rivet should not be here too much longer. Reality not opinion.

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10-20-2006, 11:21 PM
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Right now the Habs are depleted at D and need everyone they have. No one in Hamilton is nearly as good as Rivet or Souray.

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10-20-2006, 11:23 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Maroons View Post
It's just that Streit and Bouillon are so much better. Rivet is good, but he should retire. Souray is good offensively but he should be scratched when Bouillon comes back. That way we can have our 2 best dmen in the lineup (Bouillon and Streit, of course).

Risible. Ludicrous. That's all I care to say.

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Old
10-21-2006, 10:05 AM
  #11
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Risible. Ludicrous. That's all I care to say.
he was joking

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10-21-2006, 11:43 AM
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I for one can live with there brain cramps as long as they clear the crease and there good at that. Souray has done a great job to protect his goaltender this year and push people urond when things get nasty urond the crease. You need guys like that who can be a intimidating force urond the net. Its not streit,dandenault,markov whos going to trow there gloves down to fight and let people no that you cant touch the goalie. There job is to carry the puck out of the zone and give the puck to the offense.

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10-21-2006, 01:12 PM
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they are both too slow.

they do not play physical enough

i hate rivet

sourray i dont mind, he can at least score

i do appreciate their leadership.

but craig has to go

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10-21-2006, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by calebj3000 View Post
he was joking
That didn't escape me. I should have put in a smiley.

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10-21-2006, 01:37 PM
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Souray especially brings alot to the team. Did I mention who leads all D the league for # goals?

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10-21-2006, 01:37 PM
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Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Pavel_Bure View Post
they are both too slow.

they do not play physical enough

i hate rivet

sourray i dont mind, he can at least score

i do appreciate their leadership.

but craig has to go
Right now? And which unprepared minor leaguers would you replace them with?

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10-21-2006, 02:03 PM
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Don't worry about the mob mentality. There are a few of us who don't just agree with every idiotic argument. It's not hard to start a trend on these forums.

Unless a player has never played an NHL game -- and thus is automagically the best prospect in the world, which the habs managed to draft in the 5th round -- he automatically sucks here.

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10-21-2006, 02:06 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calebj3000 View Post
Rivet and Souray are both GREAT leaders and they are both good defencemen. They are assistant captains on our team. Reading this board the last couple of days, you would think that they were the worst players ever. You guys underrate them very much and seem to forget that it is still early in the season. Sure, Rivet may have struggled so far, but the guy is playing hurt. He knows our defence corps is depleted and he is toughing it out to help the team. and souray is not as bad defensively as (nearly) everyone makes him out to be.
Do you guys see what happens when people can't watch the games anymore on TV?

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Old
10-21-2006, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by White Snake View Post
THere are hockey fans out there that are really negative thinkers. They always need to blame someone for a goal and especially a loss. SOmetimes a team wins because they played great! Sometimes a team scores a goal cause they made a great move. SImple as that. Spezza scored a beauty last year with skill, not from a defensive blunder. Souray is a hell of a D man. If Spezza's goal was not sooo amazing then it would not have been on replays 4000 times. ANd if it was not on the TV so much no one, and I mean no one would be talking about Souray and we would be giving this guy ***** loads of credit for playing so hard with 13 wrist surgeries behing him.

As for Rivet its a little different, he has put his soul on the line for years for us, so alot of us hardcore fans still feel gratitude for him. However from my point of view his game is nowhere near his salary. 2.5 range is for a layer that can bring something special to the table. SOuray deserves that for his shot alone. That shot will win us alot of games this year. But Rivets game has always been about effort and desire even when he was 25 and fresh. HE has never been great with the puck and has always been flat footed IFO the net. Rivet would be best used as a 6 maybe 7th d man and a team like Anaheim where they have a couple of stars playing 30 mins a game. There is no time for loyalty in hockey and Im sure Bob is aware of this. Great guy, great teammate but unless we have room for another Assisstant coah Rivet should not be here too much longer. Reality not opinion.
Yup, just what I thought.....a relative for sure. While Shelly's shot may win us a few games, his defensive breakdowns cost us as many.
Rivet my not be flashy but he does most of the little things right which is the reason Carbo puts him out with Markov on the first PK line while Shelly sits on the bench and the reason Carbo puts him on with Ninnamia at the end of the game while Shelly sits on the bench.
How many times does the opposing team score on Rivets side, or go around Rivet leaving him looking at their backs. Not many! Now, how many times are the goals scored from Shelly's side gving TSN a new highlight reel. Do you know why, because they can.
Instead of all this bashing, you should be giving Rivet credit for playing hurt since the first game. Hand injury in the first game, then a foot injury that say him leave on crutches.
Your one sided slant on this partnership is old news.

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10-22-2006, 01:16 PM
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[QUOTE=CaptCrunch;6830231]

Rivet does an honest job and is a valuable defensemen in our core. The key to his game is to keep it simple. The problems he had before the lockout happened because he tried to do too much and took himself out of the play. Last season he played within his limits and did a good job. I don't think his place is on the PP because he's simply not an offensive defenseman and I believe we have to keep his minutes in a certain range for him to be effective. I'd like Rivet to just be a simple stay-at-home defenseman. I'd like him to realise he's not a top shutdown guy and that he can't be Scott Stevens (I don't think he times his bodychecks well enough). He can be very valuable without being "gamebreaking". He can have an "A" to his sweater and still bring leadership without stretching his game too far. At this point, I'm not looking for more performance, I'm looking for balance.

QUOTE]
While I agree that he plays his best when he plays within himself, I don't see that he has to realize anything.I don't believe the mindset is different. When he's on the ice,he has to try and get the puck the hell out of his zone.

I don't see him running around looking for the big hit. If I see a glaring issue, it's that he makes the wrong read under pressure, or gets caught in between. To me, Rivet's a classic 'tweener'. He can occasionnally do some nice things on offense. He can't do them consistently but he gives you a taste now and then. He'll play with an edge,but he can't hit in open ice. He makes an accurate pass but isn't very creative. That's why I've always thought that he's best palyed with a more skilled partner. Playing beside a true #1, or Markov, our closest facsimile, you get the most out of Rivet.

When Rivet is played with Souray, I guess Carbo feels that he has 2 guys who compete hard and that he can trust. I don't see it myself. I see 2 guys who probably get along well, both are what I'd consider stand up guys, well respected, but they don't read each other well on the ice. When I hear Rivet, esp., interviewed, I'm impressed by how honest and well thought out his answers are. I think he's well appreciated by his teammates and is a strong enough locker room force that he makes a difference within the team.

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10-22-2006, 06:58 PM
  #21
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We have too many guys with mobility issues, poor decision-making, standing around, etc. A couple have to be upgraded. It's nothing personal, it's hockey. You can't have Rivet AND Souray AND Komisarek and Streit-Niinimaa-Bouillon-Dandenault on the same defense and expect to win a Cup. No chance. And with Markov playing poorly, it's even worse.

These guys were just passable in the old NHL, but this is the New NHL.

I'm very worried about our defense, even with the good start. I'm sure they'll gel and get better, but even at their best they are not good enough to get us past the second round at best.

I WANT A CUP

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10-22-2006, 09:06 PM
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simple all non french guys almost have to be perfect to satisfy some fans after all Koivu is a bad captain, Ryder only scores unimportant goals, Kovalev shows up one out of every four games. Bonk is too slow, Downie and Murray are useless should not be on the team and so on. Bouillon is top two defenceman, Begin best fourth line player in the league, Latendresse next superstar. How could Gainey trade Garon or Ribeiro. I feel sorry for all non quebec born player on this team.

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10-22-2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
We have too many guys with mobility issues, poor decision-making, standing around, etc. A couple have to be upgraded. It's nothing personal, it's hockey. You can't have Rivet AND Souray AND Komisarek and Streit-Niinimaa-Bouillon-Dandenault on the same defense and expect to win a Cup. No chance. And with Markov playing poorly, it's even worse.

These guys were just passable in the old NHL, but this is the New NHL.

I'm very worried about our defense, even with the good start. I'm sure they'll gel and get better, but even at their best they are not good enough to get us past the second round at best.

I WANT A CUP
Carolina and Tampa both had an average to good D when they won the cup. They just had really good chemistry.

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10-22-2006, 10:47 PM
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Carolina and Tampa both had an average to good D when they won the cup. They just had really good chemistry.
Not true, both teams had guys who could play in all situations. Tampa had Boyle and Sydor, Carolina had Kaberle and Hedican.

Those guys can pass for #2s. We only have one #2. The rest are 4-6s, though Souray is valuable as a pointman (most of the time).

But also, those defenses didn't turn the puck over and didn't stand around and didn't get caught out of position.

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10-22-2006, 10:53 PM
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Not true, both teams had guys who could play in all situations. Tampa had Boyle and Sydor, Carolina had Kaberle and Hedican.

Those guys can pass for #2s. We only have one #2. The rest are 4-6s, though Souray is valuable as a pointman (most of the time).

But also, those defenses didn't turn the puck over and didn't stand around and didn't get caught out of position.
I have faith that our positioning, which has improved this season, will continue to improve with the new coaching staff. I think you underrate the defense we have, and their "#" is irrelevant if they can play cohesively.

Noone can do anything but complain while being a top-10 team. What will happen when we lose a few in a row?

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