HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Gagne vs. Iginla

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-04-2006, 11:05 PM
  #26
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,011
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
he's paid to score goals... and be a two-way player... which he does... and is doing. money doesn't magically transform a player into something else. he's the same player he was last year... and that was the same player he was the year before (playing in a different role).

if he pots 40+, then ragging on him is ridiculous... that's like whining that a HR hitter hit 35+ and not 50. it's expecting statistics that are completely unrealistic.
no thats the thing... its the statistics that i DONT care about. i could care less if he scored 35 or 40 or 45... i want him to do the other things that he doesnt do

and to me saying he is the same player he was last year and the year before is exactly why he didnt deserve the contract he was given. he got paid that much more and doesnt provide anything more than he did when he was playing with primeau in 03. the only reason hes got the goals is because he isnt playing on the 3rd line anymore. he's given the money so hes expected to be more than a goal scorer- he needs to show emotion. he seems way too content with us sucking ballsack, as long as he goes out and gets his goals and plays a decent game its OK with him.

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:07 PM
  #27
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Again, you have no reason to respond to me, yet you do.

I honestly just had a two paragraph post to you which I have deleted. I am honestly done with you and this discussion.
lady, don't make passive aggressive comments towards people and not expect to get called out. that was a passive aggressive comment directed towards me, and anyone else who doesn't agree with the "gagne is cr@p" policy line.

post your two paragraphs... i'd LOVE to read them. you're argument against Gagne is non-sensical at best... there is literally nothing backing it up outside of your personal animosity towards his game. if you want to be "done with [me] and this discussion" then don't take shots at people in your posts, because, ya know what, people are going to respond.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:10 PM
  #28
PhillyFlyers1796
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 499
vCash: 500
Pat Burrell hit 29 home runs this season and 90 rbi. Statisticly, that doesnt sound too bad at all. Ask anyone who watched the phils this season though, they all want burrell gone. If you take that and his contract into consideration...he is a bad player.

Statistics arent always everything...Gagne can score 50 goals this year...it doesnt mean he earned his contract...

PhillyFlyers1796 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:11 PM
  #29
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFlyers1796 View Post
Iginla lead his team to the finals in 04...gagne never lead the flyers anywhere. Gagne can score goals, but forsberg had alot to do with it...Gagne would not have scored 47 goals without forsberg last year...maybe 35. Iginla scored 51 goals without the best playmaker in the game.

I would not give up carter or giroux...but if the deal was gagne for iginla, its definitly worth it.

What does it solve? What did Heatley for Hossa solve? Both were pretty equal players, one was younger, yet that trade worked out great for both teams.

And who knows, Iginla could turn out like thornton and have a mvp season with a change of scenery.
First of all you are clueless. And I meant that in the nicest way possible. Gagne scored 33 goals in the old NHL with Keith "hands of stone" Primeau as his center and an aging Mark Recchi as his winger. 27 the year after, while missing 13 games which would mean most likely a 30+ goal season. 30 goals in the old NHL, for a speed oriented player is like 40+ in the new NHL.

The following two years he was largely used as a checker and didnt get a chance to score goals. He scored 24 in the last season of the old NHL while playing in a shut down role on the 3rd line. When he was put in an offensive role with Zhamnov, he score 12 goals in 10 games.

Gagne scored 47 last year, while missing 10 games. Most likely a 50 goal season. He was on pace for 37 goals last year without Forsberg as he had 9 in the games Forsberg missed. He has scored 7 goals so far this year, on pace for 40+ with Forsberg largely not playing very well.

GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAGNE IS NOT A PRODUCT OF FORSBERG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sooner people get this through their heads, the sooner people will appreciate what this guy brings to the ice.

He is a fast winger that finds the open ice. He will score 40 with an average playmaker. Forsberg happend to be the best in the league which obviously helps, but Gagne is still a 40 goal scorer without him.

When will people realize his 47 goals had a hell of a lot more to do with the new NHL rules then with Forsberg.


mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:13 PM
  #30
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kz View Post
no thats the thing... its the statistics that i DONT care about. i could care less if he scored 35 or 40 or 45... i want him to do the other things that he doesnt do

and to me saying he is the same player he was last year and the year before is exactly why he didnt deserve the contract he was given. he got paid that much more and doesnt provide anything more than he did when he was playing with primeau in 03. the only reason hes got the goals is because he isnt playing on the 3rd line anymore. he's given the money so hes expected to be more than a goal scorer- he needs to show emotion. he seems way too content with us sucking ballsack, as long as he goes out and gets his goals and plays a decent game its OK with him.
well, that's a fair discussion... however, the fact of the matter is that people capable of scoring the goal tallies that he's capable of getting in this league (at his age) are worth the amount of money that he got.

now, if you can construct a team without those type of players, you can avoid that contract value, but you can't. i agree, there are plenty of things that Gagne doesn't bring to the table that it would be nice if he did (he'd be worth more then). he's not physical in the slightest, he's not a great emotional leader, he's not particularly creative with the puck, and he's not a playmaker.

however, he's an exceptional "team" player... i've always been bugged by people criticizing his lack of scoring previously, because it was such a by-product of his willingness to fit the role that the team gave him, which was play defense... and he did. he gets put on the top line with Zhamnov out of necessity... he scores... the team finally creates the spot for him on the top line... he scores (oh, but it's all Forsberg).

look... he's a shooter who is very solid in his own zone and will do whatever the team asks of him. with an avg. playmaking center he's a 35+ guy in this league... with a good one he gets to 40+... with Forsberg at full-strength, he's 50+ (Forsberg is far from full-strength right now).

it's fine to say you don't like the contract... but the fact of the matter is that you can't have players on your roster with his resume at much less than what he's making. if you refuse to sign those type of players, you can't be a successful team.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:17 PM
  #31
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFlyers1796 View Post
Pat Burrell hit 29 home runs this season and 90 rbi. Statisticly, that doesnt sound too bad at all. Ask anyone who watched the phils this season though, they all want burrell gone. If you take that and his contract into consideration...he is a bad player.

Statistics arent always everything...Gagne can score 50 goals this year...it doesnt mean he earned his contract...
erm...

you're right... but if you throw in his BA and K totals they begin to tell much more of the story... sure, selectively using stats can skew the story considerably.

29 HR and 90 RBI w/ the .258 and 131 K's begins to tell a lot more... .222 RISP even better.

Gagne has been a solid offensive and defensive in his career. He's a career +125, which isn't everything, but is impressive given that his career ain't that old.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:17 PM
  #32
Flames 1st pick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post

He is a fast winger that finds the open ice. He will score 40 with an average playmaker. Forsberg happend to be the best in the league which obviously helps, but Gagne is still a 40 goal scorer without him.
Again wrong, this is not yet proven

Flames 1st pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:18 PM
  #33
Norm MacDonald
Registered User
 
Norm MacDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 4,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
Intangibles? Iginla.
How can you give someone the edge in "intangibles?" Doesn't that kind of undermine the definition of the word?

Also, Gagne is almost if not on par with Iginla defensively.

And I would shy away from bringing veteran players into this city for their "leadership" abilities. It seems like whenever that happens, it amounts to nothing. Let players grow with the organization and develop a winning attitude with the team they've played with for a while.

Norm MacDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:18 PM
  #34
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,011
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
well, that's a fair discussion... however, the fact of the matter is that people capable of scoring the goal tallies that he's capable of getting in this league (at his age) are worth the amount of money that he got.

now, if you can construct a team without those type of players, you can avoid that contract value, but you can't. i agree, there are plenty of things that Gagne doesn't bring to the table that it would be nice if he did (he'd be worth more then). he's not physical in the slightest, he's not a great emotional leader, he's not particularly creative with the puck, and he's not a playmaker.

however, he's an exceptional "team" player... i've always been bugged by people criticizing his lack of scoring previously, because it was such a by-product of his willingness to fit the role that the team gave him, which was play defense... and he did. he gets put on the top line with Zhamnov out of necessity... he scores... the team finally creates the spot for him on the top line... he scores (oh, but it's all Forsberg).

look... he's a shooter who is very solid in his own zone and will do whatever the team asks of him. with an avg. playmaking center he's a 35+ guy in this league... with a good one he gets to 40+... with Forsberg at full-strength, he's 50+ (Forsberg is far from full-strength right now).

it's fine to say you don't like the contract... but the fact of the matter is that you can't have players on your roster with his resume at much less than what he's making. if you refuse to sign those type of players, you can't be a successful team.
you have a very balanced view on things... and i actually mostly agree with you.

i shouldnt react the way i have, and i shouldnt say i am "done with gagne", but if you can move him for iginla, who IMO provides the things gagne doesn't AND can score on an even level then you are nuts to not consider it

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:19 PM
  #35
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Again wrong, this is not yet proven
erm... that doesn't make it wrong... cuz it's not proven false yet either...

playing 20 a night with an average 1st line center i'm pretty convinced Gagne would put up 40... especially if we had a decent PP.

he led the league in even-strength goals last year.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:19 PM
  #36
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
Defense? Iginla.

Leadership? Iginla.

Intangibles? Iginla.

40-goal seasons without playing on a line with possibly the best playmaker in the league? Yup, you guessed it.

I like how you conveniently ignored everything besides age, salary and numbers in your analysis. That's a good way to add to your credibility.
UMMM, NO! I didnt ignore anything.

Defense - Gagne

Leadership - Iginla - Dont forget he is a few years older. (Only time Gagne was asked to be in this role was last year when he stepped aside out of respect to his friend Primeau) Last time I checked, not everyone on the team has to be a leader.

Intangibles - Even.

Score - Even.

They are two different types of players, you cant grade them on intangibles.

Iginla brings more size and checking. Gagne brings more speed and skating skill.

Okay. How about this comparison smart guy:

Gagne last season scored 9 goals in the games without Forsberg. That works out to be 36 or 37 depending on rounding for the season. Iginla scored 35 and struggled to get there. So much for creating your own chances huh??????

40+ goal seasons in the new NHL - Gagne 1, Iginla 0

Shooting % Iginla 13, Gagne 12
Goals per game (See original post)

And I think Kiprusoff had a little to do with that Cup run. Put him in place of Esche in 2003-2004, and/or give us back one of the 3 dmen that were hurt and we are in the finals as well.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:22 PM
  #37
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kz View Post
you have a very balanced view on things... and i actually mostly agree with you.

i shouldnt react the way i have, and i shouldnt say i am "done with gagne", but if you can move him for iginla, who IMO provides the things gagne doesn't AND can score on an even level then you are nuts to not consider it
Iginla is better than Gagne.

however, remember you're trading age and 2M against the cap in that deal.

not to mention in terms of raw gains of production, very little... if you're main complaint about this squad is defense, Iginla is weaker than Gagne. Iginla may pot a few more than Gagne over the course of a year with Forsberg, but i doubt we're talking anything significant... nothing worth 2M in cap space... not to mention all the craziness going in the other direction.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:22 PM
  #38
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
lady, don't make passive aggressive comments towards people and not expect to get called out. that was a passive aggressive comment directed towards me, and anyone else who doesn't agree with the "gagne is cr@p" policy line.

post your two paragraphs... i'd LOVE to read them. you're argument against Gagne is non-sensical at best... there is literally nothing backing it up outside of your personal animosity towards his game. if you want to be "done with [me] and this discussion" then don't take shots at people in your posts, because, ya know what, people are going to respond.
Last time I checked this is a message board with many many readers. Anyone can respond to anything they want. The beauty of this world we live in!

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:23 PM
  #39
Flames 1st pick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Gagne last season scored 9 goals in the games without Forsberg. That works out to be 36 or 37 depending on rounding for the season. Iginla scored 35 and struggled to get there. So much for creating your own chances huh??????
.
lol...the bias showed in this statement....have you ever watched Iginla?

Flames 1st pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:25 PM
  #40
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
lol...the bias showed in this statement....have you ever watched Iginla?
strong argument. you win.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:25 PM
  #41
Ex Storm
Dig out your soul...
 
Ex Storm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Iginla is better than Gagne.

however, remember you're trading age and 2M against the cap in that deal.

not to mention in terms of raw gains of production, very little... if you're main complaint about this squad is defense, Iginla is weaker than Gagne. Iginla may pot a few more than Gagne over the course of a year with Forsberg, but i doubt we're talking anything significant... nothing worth 2M in cap space... not to mention all the craziness going in the other direction.
But one thing you're getting back in Iginla is a little more passion and leadership, someone that can help in that department to take the pressure off of Forsberg.

Forsberg and Iginla, in my opinion, would be a much harder duo to stop than Forsberg and Gagne because they both can get in the corners and create plays, they both like to dig and get physical. They both lead with their hearts on their sleeve. The amount of desire and desperation between the two of them on the ice would be something to see.

It would be a totally different team instead of seeing Gagne just hanging out waiting for the perfect pass to bang home.

Ex Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:25 PM
  #42
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,011
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
UMMM, NO! I didnt ignore anything.

Defense - Gagne

Leadership - Iginla - Dont forget he is a few years older. (Only time Gagne was asked to be in this role was last year when he stepped aside out of respect to his friend Primeau) Last time I checked, not everyone on the team has to be a leader.

Intangibles - Even.

Score - Even.

They are two different types of players, you cant grade them on intangibles.

Iginla brings more size and checking. Gagne brings more speed and skating skill.

Okay. How about this comparison smart guy:

Gagne last season scored 9 goals in the games without Forsberg. That works out to be 36 or 37 depending on rounding for the season. Iginla scored 35 and struggled to get there. So much for creating your own chances huh??????

40+ goal seasons in the new NHL - Gagne 1, Iginla 0

Shooting % Iginla 13, Gagne 12
Goals per game (See original post)

And I think Kiprusoff had a little to do with that Cup run. Put him in place of Esche in 2003-2004, and/or give us back one of the 3 dmen that were hurt and we are in the finals as well.
you really need to chill with your tone.

fact of the matter is nearly everything you are spouting out is an opinion- as is everyone else's thoughts on the matter. nearly nothing comparing the two players can be proven to be fact so calling people "smart guy" because they disagree with you is crossing the line.

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:26 PM
  #43
Flames 1st pick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Iginla is better than Gagne.

however, remember you're trading age and 2M against the cap in that deal.

.
this I agreed with....

not the clown that claims Gagne can create his own chances without Forsberg and Iggy needs someone to create chances for him

Flames 1st pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:27 PM
  #44
Flames 1st pick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
strong argument. you win.
thank you

Flames 1st pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:28 PM
  #45
Ex Storm
Dig out your soul...
 
Ex Storm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,075
vCash: 500
The one thing that would bother me about the trade, Jester, that I forgot to mention and you have...is the age difference. Gagne still has a lot of years in this league and is signed long term.

Iginla makes more money but his contract expires sooner and I doubt he would be in line for another raise unless he somehow tops his career high in goals and this team wins the cup on his back.

We have the cap room. I'd rather spend it on Iginla than another $3.5 million down the drain on someone like Hamrlik.

Ex Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:28 PM
  #46
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Again wrong, this is not yet proven
OK OK OK OK, Im sorry. He was on a pace for 36 in the games without Forsberg, and missed 10 games of his own. Has scored 7 so far this year, with a mediocre Forsberg. Scored 33 in the old NHL with Primeau.

Nah, he cant score 40 goals without him. Never.


mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:28 PM
  #47
BringBackStevens
Registered User
 
BringBackStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 12,011
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
But one thing you're getting back in Iginla is a little more passion and leadership, someone that can help in that department to take the pressure off of Forsberg.

Forsberg and Iginla, in my opinion, would be a much harder duo to stop than Forsberg and Gagne because they both can get in the corners and create plays, they both like to dig and get physical. They both lead with their hearts on their sleeve. The amount of desire and desperation between the two of them on the ice would be something to see.

It would be a totally different team instead of seeing Gagne just hanging out waiting for the perfect pass to bang home.
exactly. this is why i think it could greatly benefit this team, at the right price of course

BringBackStevens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:29 PM
  #48
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
The one thing that would bother me about the trade, Jester, that I forgot to mention and you have...is the age difference. Gagne still has a lot of years in this league and is signed long term.

Iginla makes more money but his contract expires sooner and I doubt he would be in line for another raise unless he somehow tops his career high in goals and this team wins the cup on his back.

We have the cap room. I'd rather spend it on Iginla than another $3.5 million down the drain on someone like Hamrlik.
The age difference was my main reason for saying know in the original post that started this thread.

Just in case you missed it.

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:30 PM
  #49
Ex Storm
Dig out your soul...
 
Ex Storm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
The age difference was my main reason for saying know in the original post that started this thread.
Right, and it's a totally fair argument. It makes me a little hesitant. But if you made Iginla 26 years old, even at the $2 million difference, in a heartbeat I trade for Iginla.

I just don't like Giroux being mentioned. He's putting up Crosby-like numbers. I just don't want to give him up.

Ex Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-04-2006, 11:31 PM
  #50
PhillyFlyers1796
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post

When will people realize his 47 goals had a hell of a lot more to do with the new NHL rules then with Forsberg.

Ill realize that when i forget how many times I head Jackson say "Forsberg to Gagne" or "Gagne from Forsberg" last year. Maybe youre right, maybe gags can score 45 goals without foppa, i wont doubt that. But if thats the case, he should be scoring 60 with foppa...

The bottom line is, ive never seen Gange even play close to the way Iginla played in the 04 playoffs...he played with such intensity and leadership...it was amazing to watch (like prims was). Right now i think this team could use the intensity and leadership Iginla can bring to the table over the goal scoring gags can...

PhillyFlyers1796 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:30 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.