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Would Patrick Roy come back to Montreal ?

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:14 PM
  #26
Avant-Gardien
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As a goalie myself, I've worked with coaches who were phenomenal players at their respective levels of play, and completely failed to understand the position.

Conversely, some of the most respected goalie coaches in the business were never exceptional NHLers. Don't believe me? Go to http://goaliestore.com/board and look around at the "Doctor on Ice" forum there to see who garners respect as goalie coaches.

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:18 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Avant-Gardien View Post
As a goalie myself, I've worked with coaches who were phenomenal players at their respective levels of play, and completely failed to understand the position.

Conversely, some of the most respected goalie coaches in the business were never exceptional NHLers. Don't believe me? Go to http://goaliestore.com/board and look around at the "Doctor on Ice" forum there to see who garners respect as goalie coaches.
It's possible, but from what I've seen Roy is good at coaching, so I can't see how he couldn't teach a goalie basic motor skills. In fact Abby has said that Roy had taught him things when they were together in Colorado.

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11-07-2006, 02:19 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Says who? I'm not saying Gretzky would magically turn Begin into a Crosby, but he'd certainly show him things he's never thought about. He could also fine tune his passing skills, show him where to position himself, show him how to work behind the net... Some skills can be learned but it's obvious a player like Begin doesn't have the creativity or vision to become the next great one.
I think the issue is whether very talented players (Gretz, Michael Jordan, etc) necessarily make great mentors. But when I think about some of the greatest trainers/mentors/teachers in diverse fields (i.e., hockey, boxing, track and field, academia), I have a hard time coming up with great players that also went on to be great teachers/instructors.

What's the old adage: those who can't teach and those who teach can't. I think doing and teaching do not necessarily translate. Teaching is an art and science in and of itself and requires a lot of work and, yes, there is talent involved as well. Hey, I'd be honored if Gretz helped me out with something. Would I necessarily choose him over a guy that never played in the NHL to be my No.1 coach? No way Jose Theodore. There are far better teachers of the game, I'm sure, than Gretz can ever hope to be.

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11-07-2006, 02:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Says who? I'm not saying Gretzky would magically turn Begin into a Crosby, but he'd certainly show him things he's never thought about. He could also fine tune his passing skills, show him where to position himself, show him how to work behind the net... Some skills can be learned but it's obvious a player like Begin doesn't have the creativity or vision to become the next great one.
Shabs, you'll just keep arguing until everyone lese goes to bed won't you ? Sharing knowledge and having ability have nothing to do with each other. Scotty Bowman was exposed to some of the brightest minds in hockey from his playing days to his days apprenticing under Sam Pollock. He learnt th egame, how to recognise and develop talent. He learnt everything aout the game of hockey,along with what made a team win.

Gretzky was tutored concurrently with toilet training to develop his vison and passing skills. He could close his eyes and point out where everyone on the ice was.

He didn't become great by accident, it was a combiantion of ability and capacity for hard work. There is nothing that says that Gretzky can teach. Maybe he can, but there's no indicator that he can.

Teaching, like goal scoring is an ability. Melancon understand's technique, he understands when a goalie is getting out of his comfort zone and knows how to correct this. Patrick Roy was great because he integrated a high level of competitiveness with solid technique [taught to him by the likes of Allaire] and physical ability. There is no way to predict whether or not he can impart much to goalies.

BTW, I doubt that Roy would ever accept a goalie coaching job. His ego demands a much higher profile than the guy in the back ground working after practice with a back up.

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:24 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I think the issue is whether very talented players (Gretz, Michael Jordan, etc) necessarily make great mentors. But when I think about some of the greatest trainers/mentors/teachers in diverse fields (i.e., hockey, boxing, track and field, academia), I have a hard time coming up with great players that also went on to be great teachers/instructors.

What's the old adage: those who can't teach and those who teach can't. I think doing and teaching do not necessarily translate. Teaching is an art and science in and of itself and requires a lot of work and, yes, there is talent involved as well. Hey, I'd be honored if Gretz helped me out with something. Would I necessarily choose him over a guy that never played in the NHL to be my No.1 coach? No way Jose Theodore. There are far better teachers of the game, I'm sure, than Gretz can ever hope to be.
I get what you're saying.

What I'm saying is...You can be the best teacher in the world, but their's a point where you can't teach something that you don't understand yourself. For instance, if I'm going to learn how to stick handle, I'm gonna go with Kovalev, Datsyuk etc. before I go with Bowman or another great instructor.

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:25 PM
  #31
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Meh ,why not .........

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:27 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post

BTW, I doubt that Roy would ever accept a goalie coaching job. His ego demands a much higher profile than the guy in the back ground working after practice with a back up.
I agree, which is why this argument is futile. However, I have the same pig-headed competitiveness Roy had, and I don't stop till my point gets accross

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11-07-2006, 02:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
I get what you're saying.

What I'm saying is...You can be the best teacher in the world, but their's a point where you can't teach something that you don't understand yourself. For instance, if I'm going to learn how to stick handle, I'm gonna go with Kovalev, Datsyuk etc. before I go with Bowman or another great instructor.
Exactly. Next time Kovy puts on an stickhandling exhibition and deaks through several defenders en route to a pretty goal, ask him afterwards how he did it. Oh, he might make up some story, but he was on autopilot while doing it--he doesn't even know how he did it; he just did! What's he going to say? "Well, when the player moved this way I twisted my wrist like this and pulled the puck that way and...bla, bla, bla..."

How can you teach talent? A great instructor teaches skills. That's all anyone can do, Kovy, Gretz, or Roy included. Once the mechanics have been taught (which is an art and science and a talent) and once they have been master by the student, talent takes over--you either have it or you don't.

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Old
11-07-2006, 02:47 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Exactly. Next time Kovy puts on an stickhandling exhibition and deaks through several defenders en route to a pretty goal, ask him afterwards how he did it. Oh, he might make up some story, but he was on autopilot while doing it--he doesn't even know how he did it; he just did! What's he going to say? "Well, when the player moved this way I twisted my wrist like this and pulled the puck that way and...bla, bla, bla..."

How can you teach talent? A great instructor teaches skills. That's all anyone can do, Kovy, Gretz, or Roy included. Once the mechanics have been taught (which is an art and science and a talent) and once they have been master by the student, talent takes over--you either have it or you don't.
Skill and talent go hand in hand. There are many many stickhandling instructors out there... What you're refering to is Instinct, which can't be taught.

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11-07-2006, 02:49 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
I agree, which is why this argument is futile. However, I have the same pig-headed competitiveness Roy had, and I don't stop till my point gets accross

Perseverance is a good quality to have.

However, you have made your point more than once and we understand what you are getting at and we could probably debate this for hours. lol

I want to give an example with a different sport. I used to be sponsored for snowboarding when I lived in Kamloops, BC. I would do competitions and all that fun stuff, meaning I was able to hold my own.

Last year my g-friend started to snowboard and I realized even though I'm really good at it. I simply couldn't teach it. I wasn't able understand how she couldn't keep her balance because to me it simply came naturally.

We ended up getting one of my friends (he's a pretty good snowboarder, but not the best) who is an instructor and he did an excellent job and she was carving after a lesson with him. (And yes I did feel quite useless at that point lol)

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Old
11-07-2006, 03:00 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by The CUBE View Post
Perseverance is a good quality to have.

However, you have made your point more than once and we understand what you are getting at and we could probably debate this for hours. lol

I want to give an example with a different sport. I used to be sponsored for snowboarding when I lived in Kamloops, BC. I would do competitions and all that fun stuff, meaning I was able to hold my own.

Last year my g-friend started to snowboard and I realized even though I'm really good at it. I simply couldn't teach it. I wasn't able understand how she couldn't keep her balance because to me it simply came naturally.

We ended up getting one of my friends (he's a pretty good snowboarder, but not the best) who is an instructor and he did an excellent job and she was carving after a lesson with him. (And yes I did feel quite useless at that point lol)
Don't get me wrong, I think when it comes to fundementals a better teacher is better than someone who isn't good at teaching but is one of the best at comps and such. But when it comes to raising the bar, such as learning, say a double backflip or something that the instructor doesn't know how to do himself...He isn't going to go anywhere and that's when I believe your Shaun White's or whatever can teach something that that instructor can't.

Another example is that I'm not going to go to a skateboarding instructor to learn the 900, I'm gonna go to Tony Hawk. (I'd never be able to do it since I suck and have no center of gravity, but if I were a Pro skater)

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11-07-2006, 03:01 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SniperMogilny2K6 View Post
As a coach ?

He's been very successful coaching at a lower level. Do you think he could coach in Montreal in the future or is that out of question
In a very far future ? Maybe !

I see him more as a D.G. anyway.

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11-07-2006, 03:07 PM
  #38
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I'd take Roy over Melanson any day. I've heard many say that Melanson is a great goaltending coach, but I never got it... If the guy is so great why was he so average in nets? As for the rest...I like our coaching staff.


If you go through the list pf all NHL head coaches and assistants, most of them were third line/fourth line players and bottom tier d-men or backup goalies. Or never played a single game at NHL level.

Carbo has always beena third line player, Jarvis too. Claude Julien played a handful of games in NHL, ditto with Therrien. Pat Burns, Jacques Demers never played in the NHL, even at AHL level.

How come Steven Spielberg is not teaching cinema ?

Rocket Richard tried to become a coach, and left after a couple of games in the World Hockey Association. Gretzky should follow his example !

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Old
11-07-2006, 03:14 PM
  #39
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Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

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11-07-2006, 03:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by habitué View Post


If you go through the list of all NHL head coaches and assistants, most of them were third line/fourth line players and bottom tier d-men or backup goalies. Or never played a single game at NHL level.
Melanson has been the reson we had a somewhat competetive team in the least 6-7years. He devlopped up solid goalie like Theodore and Garon and got vets to play above their heads ( Moog,Hackett). Huet came in and after some work with Rollie he was among the top goalie in the league.

Scotty Bowman never played above junior level and he is the most sucessfull coach ever.

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Old
11-07-2006, 03:29 PM
  #41
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roy was a super goalie, and he might be doing a good job with his team that he is coaching now, but i can not see him being a coach with us, i can see him being a consultant, a advisor to melanson but not a coach.

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11-07-2006, 04:04 PM
  #42
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I think Roy may very well come back in the habs organization in the future, but I doubt it would be as a coach under Gainey. Roy would never accept to have anything but total control.

As for the whole argument regarding good players/good coach... I don't even understand why it is an issue. Many, many coaches in various sports did not have incredible pro career as players, and many, many exceptionnal players have proven time and again that they aren't good coach. The whole "individual/team" is a retard argument, and has absolutely nothing do to with anything. Roy is, from what I've heard, a good coach, but that's because he has good coach qualities, not because he was a good player. But can you imagine Guy Lafleur as a coach? That's what I thought...

Remember than even exceptional players have coaches. Even Tiger Woods need one. There are things you are not aware as a player that a good coach can see, analyse and help you correct.

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Old
11-07-2006, 04:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Don't get me wrong, I think when it comes to fundementals a better teacher is better than someone who isn't good at teaching but is one of the best at comps and such. But when it comes to raising the bar, such as learning, say a double backflip or something that the instructor doesn't know how to do himself...He isn't going to go anywhere and that's when I believe your Shaun White's or whatever can teach something that that instructor can't.

Another example is that I'm not going to go to a skateboarding instructor to learn the 900, I'm gonna go to Tony Hawk. (I'd never be able to do it since I suck and have no center of gravity, but if I were a Pro skater)
You are right and wrong at the same time. A good teacher has nothing to do with his talent but his ability to explain his knowledge and get through to his students. Patrick Roy was taught by Allaire, not by Ken Dryden. In North America, teachers aren't always the best at their profession, when back in the day in Russia, they we're. That might explain why the technical sides of arts, sports and science were better there. Thats why I also think you are right in a way. But then again, there's a big contradiction in what you say. If Patrick Roy would do a better job on the account that he's a more talented goaltender, how can you explain the fact that he is coaching a group of forwards and defencemen, positions he knows nothing about empirically at a high level?

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11-07-2006, 04:36 PM
  #44
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There is expression that sums this up.

"The student has surpassed the teacher"

Knowledge and ability do not go hand in hand.

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11-07-2006, 04:52 PM
  #45
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You don't need to be a good player to be a good coach (but that might help), however that's not because Gretzky is failing that Roy will. He's been a very good coach in the Q.

He was a great winner on the ice and he's proving that he's a winner coach too.

I think this guy would win lottery if he bought tickets.

To the original question:

I think that Roy not only would accept it but he want the job. IMO, Carbo will coach 4-5 years. I don't think Gainey will let his man down as quick as Savard or Houle did and I think that if Roy can get a NHL job meanwhile, the Montreal Canadiens coach in 5-6 years will be Patrick Roy.

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11-07-2006, 05:27 PM
  #46
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I have a different perspective as to why I prefer non-superstar coaches coaching my team...
First off, Try having Wayne Gretzky trying to tell someone to break out of an 18 game scoring slump... Try having Gretz analyse the 3/4 liners that he hardly had to say boo to in his entire NHL career...
Try having Wayne Gretzky tell you how to grind out an NHL career, that at best is 5 years tops for some players...

On the other hand... Guys like Bowman, Keenan... even a guy like Gainey and Carbonneau....
They made the grade by hard work, they have experienced dejection, and they ALSO realize that nobody else will own up for their mistakes...
Gretz actually has forgotten to put a player on the roster list preseted to the clock booth last year, and Fredrik Sjostrom was forced to sit a game... I have NEVER seen another coach do this...
The point is, I would prefer to give the players a coach who has suffered hardships, and worked incredibly hard just to even meek out a 4th liner role for 3 seaosns, and knows he game like the back of his hand than a guy who has never struggled.

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11-07-2006, 05:47 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoupeStanley View Post
You don't need to be a good player to be a good coach (but that might help), however that's not because Gretzky is failing that Roy will. He's been a very good coach in the Q.

He was a great winner on the ice and he's proving that he's a winner coach too.

I think this guy would win lottery if he bought tickets.

To the original question:

I think that Roy not only would accept it but he want the job. IMO, Carbo will coach 4-5 years. I don't think Gainey will let his man down as quick as Savard or Houle did and I think that if Roy can get a NHL job meanwhile, the Montreal Canadiens coach in 5-6 years will be Patrick Roy.
i agree with you . In his heart , Roy is a Habs , and i am sure that he would like to get the job one day . And i am pretty sure that he will have it . Gainey isn't the GM who changes his coach all the time . But once Carbo will leave , you can be sure that Roy is going to be there IF HE'S FREE .

Because you can be sure that Roy is going to coach in the NHL one day ; He 's a winer , and he's a hard worker . Roy is going to takes his time to go in the NHL , because he wants to be the better , not a kind of Mario Tremblay that didn't have any experiences when he joined the Habs .

Roy doesn't want to coach the Habs , he wants TO WIN THE CUP WITH THE HABS , as a coach this time

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11-07-2006, 05:53 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by #ZAMBONI# View Post
i agree with you . In his heart , Roy is a Habs , and i am sure that he would like to get the job one day . And i am pretty sure that he will have it . Gainey isn't the GM who changes his coach all the time . But once Carbo will leave , you can be sure that Roy is going to be there IF HE'S FREE .

Because you can be sure that Roy is going to coach in the NHL one day ; He 's a winer , and he's a hard worker . Roy is going to takes his time to go in the NHL , because he wants to be the better , not a kind of Mario Tremblay that didn't have any experiences when he joined the Habs .
I would bet that Carbo has it in his mind that when Gainey goes, he'd be interested. Roy likes a challenge, in fact I'd think he needs a challenge. What would be better than coming home and winning ? Would/could he work for a GM ? I couldn't imagine him as a goalie coach though.

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11-08-2006, 07:29 AM
  #49
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Roy's ego is too big to be a Assistant coach. I am starting to see alot of similarities between ROY and terell Owens. ROy is a little b****. He will never show this organization respect because he still cannot get over the way things ended. THe only reason he is coaching now is to fill his ego. And because his wife needs her space. SLAP SLAP. I guarantee you when we retire his number he will say something stupid at the ceremony. Thats if he even shows up. HE will probably skip to attent his sons hockey practice. IF he does not want to be on our coaching staff then that is his loss not ours. Plus he probably would not want to give any secrets away to anyway. HE wouldnt want them to break his records. IT has always been about him, not the team. Good riddance, he can go into the hall as a avalanche for all I care. Oh and he is proabably still upset that Aebischer outplayed him in 2002-03 and probably would have beaten the Wild in the first round if they had played Abby.

9 goals in 34 minutes. Imagine if he played the whole 60.

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11-08-2006, 07:39 AM
  #50
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I'll just ignore the last post.


The awnser is yes, He said it himself (heard him often on Quebec's radio stations).

He have a very good relation with Gainey and hold no grudge at all again the Habs. Carbo offered him the assistant coach job after last season but he thought it was too soon. One of his kid is playing Midget AAA here, the other one is younger and he loves is current situation. Lets not forget it's only his 2nd year as the coach.


I don't get why people talk about a job related to the goalies. It's probably his biggest problem as a coach/GM with the Remparts. Assistant coach or coach are much better suited for him as he's an amazing leader.

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