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With's with Carbo's obsession with the Fourth line?

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Old
11-12-2006, 09:48 AM
  #1
Kimota
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With's with Carbo's obsession with the Fourth line?

Obviously i'm a Guy Carbonneau fan. But i've seen this tendency from him a few times lately where for whatever reasons he started to give a lot of ice to his fourth line and then we got in trouble.

Last night after it was 3-1, he started to play the fourth line on and on and on and the Saku line almost got no ice-time from 3-1 to the rest the game. Yet it's that Saku line that gave the Habs its only goal. It seems to me you want more goals and wants to get back in the game, you're not gonna play your fourth line. In fact most coaches, when your team is losing, they cut their bench to play at three lines. But it's usualy their best three lines. Carbo sometime does this but it's not with the best lines..? Wich to me is an extra-terrestial way to coach. I just don't get why he stopped playing the first line. Because we could never get back in the game by him making this decision.

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11-12-2006, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Obviously i'm a Guy Carbonneau fan. But i've seen this tendency from him a few times lately where for whatever reasons he started to give a lot of ice to his fourth line and then we got in trouble.

Last night after it was 3-1, he started to play the fourth line on and on and on and the Saku line almost got no ice-time from 3-1 to the rest the game. Yet it's that Saku line that gave the Habs its only goal. It seems to me you want more goals and wants to get back in the game, you're not gonna play your fourth line. In fact most coaches, when your team is losing, they cut their bench to play at three lines. But it's usualy their best three lines. Carbo sometime does this but it's not with the best lines..? Wich to me is an extra-terrestial way to coach. I just don't get why he stopped playing the first line. Because we could never get back in the game by him making this decision.
I know I posted the same question on another thread. I am not sure if he is just going through a learning phase or what but if this trend continues we are in deep dodo.

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11-12-2006, 09:55 AM
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Not sure what you're talking about. The fourth line had three short shifts in the third period; the Koivu line had 7 shifts; Kovalev line had 7 shifts; Johnson/Bonk had 5-6 shifts.

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11-12-2006, 10:02 AM
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Not sure what you're talking about. The fourth line had three short shifts in the third period; the Koivu line had 7 shifts; Kovalev line had 7 shifts; Johnson/Bonk had 5-6 shifts.
Have you watched the third period at all? The Koivu line had no ice-time. Yet we kept seeing freakin Murray and Downey.

But let me say this: Carbo is a little too in love with the Bonk line. If you want goals, you don't send Begin and Bonk over and over. Sorry.

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11-12-2006, 10:09 AM
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Have you watched the third period at all? The Koivu line had no ice-time. Yet we kept seeing freakin Murray and Downey.
Yeah, I did. And you're wrong. Once again: the Koivu line had 7 shifts in the third period. The fourth line had 3 shifts. Koivu's line's shifts were also longer than the fourth line's shifts on average.

So really, either you're deliberately misrepresenting the situation, or you're delusional. The facts speak for themselves, and they show you're entirely wrong.


BTW, the fourth line had about the same amount of ice-time through each period last night.

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11-12-2006, 10:13 AM
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I have no problem with the fourth line playing if they aren't losing us the game. Our fourth line has been atrocious all year long and the trend continues. Furthermore since Perezhogin has been taken off the third line they haven't generated much offence.

I think that a fourth line of Begin Plekanek Kostytsin could be amazing. Offensive capabilities and defensive awwareness. More like a third line...what's wrong with having two third lines. Maybe try Lapierre with Bonk and Johnson. It's really painful watching the fourth line consistently costing us goals and games, never being able to get it out of teh zone and getting lots of playing time. I for one do not understand it.

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11-12-2006, 10:19 AM
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I remember keep seeing Downey and Murray in the third and thinking:"what is he doing?". But let me say this: he was more guilty for playing the third than the fourth line. Like I said, Carbo is a little too in love with the Bonk line right now. I know he feels that they're banging and charging all the time. But that style doesn't mean you're going to get more goals. The Lats-Koivu-Ryder line gave them their only goal of the match and yet we rarely saw them.

Maybe I have the wrong philosophy but if you want to get back in the game bad, you play your first two lines on and on since it's them that's going to get you back in since logically they score more goals.

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11-12-2006, 10:22 AM
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Why do you insist on claiming Carbonneau rarely played the first line late in the game? The Koivu line was tied for the most shifts in the third; tied with Kovalev's line.

In other words, you stating that Carbonneau should play lines 1 and 2 over and over again is precisely what he did.


As far as the Bonk line goes... it seems to me Carbonneau plays that line when he wants a strong shift where the team establishes offensive zone presence and controls the boards. In other words, momentum-builders. Koivu's line and Kovalev's line weren't doing all that well in establishing offensive zone presence, but Bonk's line has been solid in this regard all year long.

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11-12-2006, 10:30 AM
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murray is reallu having a bad start to his season... I think he needs to sit a bit

bring on lapierre

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11-12-2006, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Why do you insist on claiming Carbonneau rarely played the first line late in the game? The Koivu line was tied for the most shifts in the third; tied with Kovalev's line.

In other words, you stating that Carbonneau should play lines 1 and 2 over and over again is precisely what he did.


As far as the Bonk line goes... it seems to me Carbonneau plays that line when he wants a strong shift where the team establishes offensive zone presence and controls the boards. In other words, momentum-builders. Koivu's line and Kovalev's line weren't doing all that well in establishing offensive zone presence, but Bonk's line has been solid in this regard all year long.
In games like that, if he had a hot hand to go to or a scapegoat, he'd have done some juggling. I don't think he had the option last night. No one was in sync, I don't think anyone was coasting to any degree but he didn't have anyone deserving more ice in a shakeup.

I know I get repetitive,but with this team it seems to be spacing and gaps and it gets worse when guys try and do too much, and for some reason, it's more apparent aginst the Leafs. I don't quite know why though.

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11-12-2006, 10:35 AM
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Kimota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Why do you insist on claiming Carbonneau rarely played the first line late in the game? The Koivu line was tied for the most shifts in the third; tied with Kovalev's line.

In other words, you stating that Carbonneau should play lines 1 and 2 over and over again is precisely what he did.
I must have been blind because that's not what I saw at all. I kept looking for the Koivu line when we wear behind but he would not play them at all. I was wondering if Saku was injured or if they were punished. And yet Murray and Downey kept playing.


Quote:
As far as the Bonk line goes... it seems to me Carbonneau plays that line when he wants a strong shift where the team establishes offensive zone presence and controls the boards. In other words, momentum-builders. Koivu's line and Kovalev's line weren't doing all that well in establishing offensive zone presence, but Bonk's line has been solid in this regard all year long.
And yet, what he did he didn't work at all. "momentum-builders" to me is a concept. At the end of the day, you need more goals. Nothing more, nothing less. I think Carbo panics way too much. And when the Habs are in trouble he sends the Bonk line on and on. I know that some coachs have their fetish players. But I think not putting the Koivu line enough last night is what cost us into getting back in the game. In fact when he sends the Bonk line on and on when we are in trouble, the Habs look more like headless chikens more than anything else. And we're making more mystakes overall.

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11-12-2006, 10:39 AM
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And yet, what he did he didn't work at all. "momentum-builders" to me is a concept. At the end of the day, you need more goals. Nothing more, nothing less. I think Carbo panics way too much. And when the Habs are in trouble he sends the Bonk line on and on. I know that some coachs have their fetish players. But I think not putting the Koivu line enough last night is what cost us into getting back in the game. In fact when he sends the Bonk line on and on when we are in trouble, the Habs look more like headless chikens more than anything else. And we're making more mystakes overall.
Except for the fact that the Koivu line played substantially more in the third period than the Bonk line.

Your points of contention seem to revolve around misconceptions of the game.

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11-12-2006, 10:46 AM
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In games like that, if he had a hot hand to go to or a scapegoat, he'd have done some juggling. I don't think he had the option last night. No one was in sync, I don't think anyone was coasting to any degree but he didn't have anyone deserving more ice in a shakeup.

I know I get repetitive,but with this team it seems to be spacing and gaps and it gets worse when guys try and do too much, and for some reason, it's more apparent aginst the Leafs. I don't quite know why though.
I look at last night's game and I don't see any specific players, other than the usual suspects who are fringe players on the team (and thus won't have a major impact on the win/loss), who played poorly. Kovalev had a few giveaways, but he also generated some decent offense. Samsonov, Ryder didn't generate much, but they skated hard, competed, backchecked hard. Ryder had that one terrific backcheck in the third to nullify a two-on-one. Latendresse didn't look out of place on that scoring line.

So I'm curious why the team just never got in sync. When I look at it that way, I chalk it up to the team playing having a longer layoff, no skate in the morning, a long presentation before the game, in conjunction with maybe just not having it on that given night. It happens over an 82-game season.

But then I think of Montreal playing its worst three games of the year against Toronto, and there's gotta be more to it.

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11-12-2006, 10:49 AM
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The quibble about how many shifts the fourth line got skirts the central issue, namely, the low quality of that line. It is good neither offensively nor defensively. Gainey has to bring up some fresh troops from Hamilton, who are unlikely to play worse than Murray and Downey. Plekanec seems to be in a funk as a result of playing with those sad sacks.

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11-12-2006, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Except for the fact that the Koivu line played substantially more in the third period than the Bonk line.

Your points of contention seem to revolve around misconceptions of the game.
We definitly did not watch the same game, that's for sure.


Not that there's anything wrong with that.


But I kept screaming at the TV about why we didn't see them. Everytime Lats was on the ice things seemed to happen. Yet, Carbo kept playing the third and fourth line. Not very impressed by him.

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11-12-2006, 11:00 AM
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I look at last night's game and I don't see any specific players, other than the usual suspects who are fringe players on the team (and thus won't have a major impact on the win/loss), who played poorly. Kovalev had a few giveaways, but he also generated some decent offense. Samsonov, Ryder didn't generate much, but they skated hard, competed, backchecked hard. Ryder had that one terrific backcheck in the third to nullify a two-on-one. Latendresse didn't look out of place on that scoring line.

So I'm curious why the team just never got in sync. When I look at it that way, I chalk it up to the team playing having a longer layoff, no skate in the morning, a long presentation before the game, in conjunction with maybe just not having it on that given night. It happens over an 82-game season.

But then I think of Montreal playing its worst three games of the year against Toronto, and there's gotta be more to it.
there was a play at some poiht that summed it up for me. Rivet wins a battle on the boards and passes to what he figues is the waiting winger, who instead is Kaberle who had taken position in front of the guy. The winger has to either make himself an obstacle,stay lower, closer to the circle or scream 'no'. The Leafs are agressive on the puck and Mtl doesn't deal with it well.
I agree regarding Samsonov,Ryder and a few others. They seemed to be doing the right things,working hard but nothing came of it.

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11-12-2006, 11:01 AM
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I really don't understand why you insist on claiming Carbonneau played the third and fourth line more than he did the scoring lines. Check the shift-chart for yourself: http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/SC020236.HTM

I'm not making this up; the first and second lines played the most in the third.

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11-12-2006, 11:07 AM
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there was a play at some poiht that summed it up for me. Rivet wins a battle on the boards and passes to what he figues is the waiting winger, who instead is Kaberle who had taken position in front of the guy. The winger has to either make himself an obstacle,stay lower, closer to the circle or scream 'no'. The Leafs are agressive on the puck and Mtl doesn't deal with it well.
I agree regarding Samsonov,Ryder and a few others. They seemed to be doing the right things,working hard but nothing came of it.
True. I also noticed the defense, while playing decently in defensive zone coverage, didn't stand up nearly enough. There were a few occasions where loose pucks were hovering just inside the Leafs blueline after the Habs had some sustained pressure, and the Montreal defensemen immediately backed up. Had they pinched in a bit, the team would've maintained pressure.

Over the past 2-3 games, the defense had started using their sticks nicely and standing up at the blueline a little more. Last night, they didn't, which enabled the Leafs to gain the zone a whole lot easier.

Also, the defense stopped skating with the puck before making an outlet pass, which I think gives them more options and forces the opposition to stay back a little. By going D to D all the time it caters to a forechecking club as it gives them time to get on the D and establish the forecheck.


Not blaming this on the D, but I am saying Montreal's transition game is leaving an awful lot to be desired. At least in last night's game and over the course of the majority of the season.


It seems like last night's game had a lot of chipping the puck up the ice, lots of broken plays, which eliminates the flow ... and that favours Toronto.

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11-12-2006, 11:09 AM
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Dude, i'm not gonna argue forever about this with you. We kept seeing is the Bonk line and Murray and Downey should never have played in the third.

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11-12-2006, 11:11 AM
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Sadly, I believe it may of been because the fourth line was the most visible... The other 3 lines were no where to be seen... I saw a whole lot of times, Canadiens giving up on the chase... Maybe he should have thrown the Begin-Downey-Murray combo out a few more times just to mess with the leafs... Gather some energy, and throw a talented line out next to gain on the momentum... He needed to lively up that team but it just wasnt meant to happen. The habs were flatter than an open bottle of 10 day old Coke... and the leafs exposed it. Point, end match... Round 3 to the leafs... Its a best of 8 though, and IMO as I said in another post, I believe this may be exactly what the team needed to feel.

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11-12-2006, 11:33 AM
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True. I also noticed the defense, while playing decently in defensive zone coverage, didn't stand up nearly enough. There were a few occasions where loose pucks were hovering just inside the Leafs blueline after the Habs had some sustained pressure, and the Montreal defensemen immediately backed up. Had they pinched in a bit, the team would've maintained pressure.

Over the past 2-3 games, the defense had started using their sticks nicely and standing up at the blueline a little more. Last night, they didn't, which enabled the Leafs to gain the zone a whole lot easier.

Also, the defense stopped skating with the puck before making an outlet pass, which I think gives them more options and forces the opposition to stay back a little. By going D to D all the time it caters to a forechecking club as it gives them time to get on the D and establish the forecheck.


Not blaming this on the D, but I am saying Montreal's transition game is leaving an awful lot to be desired. At least in last night's game and over the course of the majority of the season.


It seems like last night's game had a lot of chipping the puck up the ice, lots of broken plays, which eliminates the flow ... and that favours Toronto.

Some great comments about the D. I completely agree. I was thinking of posting the fact that I think we need to add a rushing defenseman to help with our transition game, although Cube started to become that in the play-offs last year so we might just have to wait awhile. Hopefully, he doesn't lose any speed because of his knee injury. We need that quality in our line-up (along with Dandy)

Our defenceman haven't been terrible lately. The PK killed us in T.O. Rivet is playing better and is back to being even for plus/minus, Markov and Komi are both pluses while Souray has improved his plus/minus as well, and has been strong along the boards.

However, Rivet, Komi, Souray, and Niinimaa need strong wingers along the boards because that is where they are going to put the puck. The Leafs D were aggressive about stepping up and taking that play away and we lost some key battles, not the D's fault. Markov and Streit don't need to go up the boards both can make strong outlet passes but neither is going to carry the puck out either if we get into trouble in our end. T.O is a team that uses an aggressive forecheck and when we meet a team like that we're going to have difficulties in transition with this D and wingers combination.

I don't have a hate-on about either Niinimaa or Streit both have their weaknesses but both have also proved they are competent bottom pairing defenceman. However, they should NOT be playing together on the road. The other team makes sure it gets its best line out against those two and they are by far our weakest link.

I am not looking forward to seeing what Vinne and St. Louis are going to do to them on Wed. in Tampa Bay. Another great forechecking team that has found its game.

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11-12-2006, 11:40 AM
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Dude, i'm not gonna argue forever about this with you. We kept seeing is the Bonk line and Murray and Downey should never have played in the third.

Dude, give it up. You are making yourself look foolish by continuously ignoring the facts and arguing against them. If you saw something different than what Mike8 has been telling you then you were either sloshed or watching a different game.

If you're not getting energy and results form the top lines, which was the case, then you throw on the other lines on occasion even if you're trailing. It's a basic coaching tenet. Believe it or not fourth lines don't go through the season with total of zero goals and zero assists, and in fact soem of our best pressure at times in the third came from the third line in their limited opportunities.

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11-12-2006, 11:57 AM
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Dude, i'm not gonna argue forever about this with you. We kept seeing is the Bonk line and Murray and Downey should never have played in the third.
Right because it was those 2 and half minutes that Downey and Murray played in the third cost us the game. Both Downey and Murray played just over 6 mins in the game, which is about what they play on average this year. (Murray actually averages over 8 mins.)

Bonk and Johnson only played 13 mins which is less than their 16:22 and 15:35 averages (respectively) for the whole season.

These are the facts. The team played poorly as a whole, and lacked agressiveness, but to blame the 3rd and 4th lines when they barely played shows you weren't paying close enough attention.

And I'll refer you to what turnbuckle said. When down by 3 in the third with your top 2 lines showing no intention of closing the gap, you roll your lines. And some of our best pressure in fact came from that 4th line. In the second period they had our team's best shift of the period. Murray did take a bad slashing penalty, true, but on the whole, the line did an okay job last night.


Last edited by Quiet Robert: 11-12-2006 at 12:04 PM.
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11-12-2006, 01:02 PM
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It is a big rivalry to play the Leafs. Both teams have no excuse why they didnt compete hard. Toronto did and for the life of me I cant understand why Montreal didnt.

Watching that game I never ever have said "OMG what are you doing" so much.

It was pathetic to watch.

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11-12-2006, 01:19 PM
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Murray and Downey played just above 6 minutes each in the game....
They only had 3 shifts in the 3rd period....
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/ES020236.HTM
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/SC020236.HTM

But I really dont see a problem with playing them if they had ACTUALY played more like you said. The team didnt show up, nothing was working, we have 4 games in 6 nights and the score was 4-1 toronto. Chalk this game up as to being rusty after the long layoff and play 4 lines to make sure your stars arent burnt out at the end of the trip. Also Carbo said before those 4 games that he would try to roll 4 lines for just that reason.

You actualy think this had any impact on the score last night?

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