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Old
12-01-2003, 05:42 PM
  #76
KillToronto
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Originally Posted by PepNCheese
LOL.

You answered your own question quite nicely there, I think.
Wow, hilarious. Ask anyone else not from Buffalo and I think they'll agree that Kaberle is one-dimensional. Face it.

 
Old
12-01-2003, 05:59 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KillToronto
Wow, hilarious. Ask anyone else not from Buffalo and I think they'll agree that Kaberle is one-dimensional. Face it.
I'm not getting involved in the discussion, but I was very suprised at some comments on Zhitnik/Kaberle in this thread so I felt a poll might be interesting....


Linky

It should provide some idea as to what the general consensus is as to whom most people would prefer.

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12-01-2003, 06:15 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KillToronto
Wow, hilarious. Ask anyone else not from Buffalo and I think they'll agree that Kaberle is one-dimensional. Face it.
Walk away KT. Seriously.

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12-01-2003, 06:25 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Chainshot
Walk away KT. Seriously.
No... let him speak.


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12-01-2003, 06:57 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
No... let him speak.

Oh wow, eight votes out of ten for Kaberle and the thread is started by a leaf fan, and you, being a leaf fan, obviously voted for Kaberle. And notice how the one person who isn't an obvious leaf fan, feels Zhitnik is better:

Mizral - "I voted Kaberle, slightly better.

The only reason however, is the age and salary. Zhitnik on the ice is a much better defenseman in my mind, and on a better team, he'd be putting up more impressive numbers. In fact, I hope my Canucks can pick him up at the deadline!"

So basically its 3 votes for Kaberle when one feels Zhitnik is better so it should be a vote for Zhitnik, and 2 votes by obvious leaf fans in Kaberle's favor.

Yeah, thanks for helping me in my argument against you.


Last edited by KillToronto: 12-01-2003 at 07:00 PM.
 
Old
12-01-2003, 07:05 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KillToronto
Oh wow, eight votes out of ten for Kaberle and the thread is started by a leaf fan, and you, being a leaf fan, obviously voted for Kaberle. And notice how the one person who isn't an obvious leaf fan, feels Zhitnik is better:

Mizral - "I voted Kaberle, slightly better.

The only reason however, is the age and salary. Zhitnik on the ice is a much better defenseman in my mind, and on a better team, he'd be putting up more impressive numbers. In fact, I hope my Canucks can pick him up at the deadline!"

So basically its 3 votes for Kaberle when one feels Zhitnik is better so it should be a vote for Zhitnik, and 2 votes by obvious leaf fans in Kaberle's favor.

Yeah, thanks for helping me in my argument against you.
He said "... voted Kaberle", but he really meant Zhitnik.

Gotcha...

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12-01-2003, 07:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
He said "... voted Kaberle", but he really meant Zhitnik.

Gotcha...
O...k....

 
Old
12-01-2003, 07:12 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by KillToronto
O...k....
That's it?


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12-01-2003, 07:17 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Pyatt has 3 years on Kaberle. Pyatt is 22 and Kaberle is 25. There is a huge amount of growth players have from 22 to 25. They will still get better from 25 on, but it is usually not that dramatic.

Pyatt >>>> Kaberle.

Zhitnik >>> Tucker.

This is another case of Toronto fans overvaluing their players.
We're not comparing Kaberle to Pyatt.

Tucker has 6 years on Pyatt.

Zhitnik has 6 years on Kaberle.

Get it?

This is another case of Leaf bashing. Kaberle is a superior offensive dman than Zhitnik. His production is way better. He costs less in salary and is six years younger. Taylor Pyatt still has light years to go before becoming a good NHLer. He has potential, but not a lot of people would trade an established top 3 guy with potential for a guy who hasn't scored 80 points in almost 300 NHL games.

Zhitnik's value has been totally overrated by Buffalo fans. Don't be surprised if Zhitnik brought you back a mid level prospect in a trade. Teppo Numminen was had for Mike Sillinger, and he's much better than Zhitnik.

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Old
12-01-2003, 07:23 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Stephen
This is another case of Leaf bashing. Kaberle is a superior offensive dman than Zhitnik. His production is way better. He costs less in salary and is six years younger. Taylor Pyatt still has light years to go before becoming a good NHLer. He has potential, but not a lot of people would trade an established top 3 guy with potential for a guy who hasn't scored 80 points in almost 300 NHL games.

Zhitnik's value has been totally overrated by Buffalo fans. Don't be surprised if Zhitnik brought you back a mid level prospect in a trade. Teppo Numminen was had for Mike Sillinger, and he's much better than Zhitnik.
Can't argue with anything you said here.

And you're right about Zhitnik's value. The Straka trade should have showed that quite well, though Zhitnik is worth more than Straka, not a whole lot. I could certainly see the Canucks moving prospect RJ Umberger for Zhitter at the deadline, or maybe Sopel for Zhitter & a pick or something.

Zhitnik is a UFA after this season, isn't he?

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12-01-2003, 07:28 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
We're not comparing Kaberle to Pyatt.

Tucker has 6 years on Pyatt.

Zhitnik has 6 years on Kaberle.

Get it?

This is another case of Leaf bashing. Kaberle is a superior offensive dman than Zhitnik. His production is way better. He costs less in salary and is six years younger. Taylor Pyatt still has light years to go before becoming a good NHLer. He has potential, but not a lot of people would trade an established top 3 guy with potential for a guy who hasn't scored 80 points in almost 300 NHL games.

Zhitnik's value has been totally overrated by Buffalo fans. Don't be surprised if Zhitnik brought you back a mid level prospect in a trade. Teppo Numminen was had for Mike Sillinger, and he's much better than Zhitnik.

I have a bone to pick with two things here (basically your two main points). Pyatt is not light years from being a good NHLer. He's a good NHLer right now, he's light years from being a great NHLer.

Zhitnik is playing his best hockey, by far, in years. He's playing like an All Star. You can't help Sabre fans for overrating him a bit, he's gone from whipping boy to one of the best players on the team. Moreover, realistically he's probably not going to be traded unless he's overpaid for. The Sabres have no reason to deal him. You can discuss his actual value until your blue in the face, I'd imagine his trade value is much higher. I'd compare him to players like Antropov or Matt Cooke in that regard.

EDIT: Mizral, Zhitik is a UFA after this year, but he's producing and like I said, the Sabres don't have the pressing financial need to trade him like Pittsburgh did with Straka. Buffalo can afford to wait for a "knock your socks" off type deal and unless the wheels come off this season, they'll probably at least be in playoff contention down the the final bell and I can't imagine Zhitnik being moved if the team is in it.

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Old
12-01-2003, 07:46 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillToronto
Oh wow, eight votes out of ten for Kaberle and the thread is started by a leaf fan, and you, being a leaf fan, obviously voted for Kaberle.
How does the fact that the poll is started by a Leafs fan invalidate the results?

I don't believe I stated my opinion or in any way unduly influenced the results of the voting, I have not linked to the poll nor commented upon it on the Leafs board to try and rile up votes for Kaberle.
The only location wherein I have either linked to or commented on the poll in any way is in this thread.

Does the fact that I am a Leafs fan inherently mean my opinion does not matter?
If that is the case, then it would seem logical that your opinion would be as worthless as my own as you are by your own words a Buffalo Sabres fan.

With all due respect, I find the insinuation that my opinion as a Leafs fan is inherently biased yet your opinion as a Sabres fan is not biased to be insulting.


As Leafs and Sabres fans respectively I would think we have a better idea of the relative abilities of the players on our team then do most.
Similarly it would seem likely that we have a better grasp of the needs of our favored teams.
Therefore I would be inclined to believe the opinions of Sabres/Leafs fans matter MORE then that of those not fans of either team.


Quote:
And notice how the one person who isn't an obvious leaf fan, feels Zhitnik is better:
Why do you feel that everyone besides Mizral is obviously a Leafs fan?
Of those 10 votes as of your reply, only two are clearly and undeniably by Leafs fans- that of myself and go pierre hedin, while one is clearly that of a Sabres fan- your own vote.


Two have apparently stated Zhitnik is a superior player but they would prefer Kaberle due to age/contract related issues.
I would count that as a vote in Kaberle's favor as naturally in the current NHL economical situation skill level tends to be far from the sole determinating factor in any trade.

Age and contract are bound to be important factors to consider.

Now if we are discussing the two players skills alone, and not their relative values in the NHL then I would agree they are definite votes for Zhitnik.


FWIW:
Voting as stands now-

Tomas Kaberle-Much better [ 6 ] * 40.00%
Alexei Zhitnik-Much better [ 3 ] 20.00%
Tomas Kaberle-Slightly better [ 6 ] 40.00%
Alexei Zhitnik-Slightly better [ 0 ] 0%

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Old
12-01-2003, 07:53 PM
  #88
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Actually, you could characterize me as a Leafs fan. They are one of my favorite teams outside of the Canucks. Right along with the Flames and Oilers, the Leafs are probobly my 2nd - 4th favorite team in the league, and I watch 'em a ton.

I think if another poll were to go up, who is better on the ice, Zhitnik or Kaberle, Zhitnik would win that out. But I think you Sabres fans might underrate just what that salary and approaching UFA-ness does to a player. While it's pretty safe to say that both Kaberle and Zhitnik probobly are as good as they are ever going to get, Kaberle is making a ton less money and is more of a sure bet to be a leaf past the CBA. Frankly, I would be shocked if Zhitnik is a Sabre after the CBA drops, and I think many Sabres fans would feel the same.

As for waiting for a sweetheart deal, I don't think your GM or owner feels the same way. Zhitnik is in a similar position to what Ragnarsson and McGillis are in. Top 3 defensemen (arguably I suppose, Zhitnik is the best of the three mind you, so it would effect the returns) making too much money for their teams to be interesting in keeping around. And the approaching UFA-ness, well, keeping Zhitnik would be a pretty silly move considering the Sabres are in the midst of a rebuilding process, especially with so much uncertainty.

I think Zhitnik will be dealt at some point this year, and I don't think it'll be for any more than around 2nd round pick and change value.

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Old
12-01-2003, 08:22 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Actually, you could characterize me as a Leafs fan. They are one of my favorite teams outside of the Canucks. Right along with the Flames and Oilers, the Leafs are probobly my 2nd - 4th favorite team in the league, and I watch 'em a ton.

I think if another poll were to go up, who is better on the ice, Zhitnik or Kaberle, Zhitnik would win that out. But I think you Sabres fans might underrate just what that salary and approaching UFA-ness does to a player. While it's pretty safe to say that both Kaberle and Zhitnik probobly are as good as they are ever going to get, Kaberle is making a ton less money and is more of a sure bet to be a leaf past the CBA. Frankly, I would be shocked if Zhitnik is a Sabre after the CBA drops, and I think many Sabres fans would feel the same.

As for waiting for a sweetheart deal, I don't think your GM or owner feels the same way. Zhitnik is in a similar position to what Ragnarsson and McGillis are in. Top 3 defensemen (arguably I suppose, Zhitnik is the best of the three mind you, so it would effect the returns) making too much money for their teams to be interesting in keeping around. And the approaching UFA-ness, well, keeping Zhitnik would be a pretty silly move considering the Sabres are in the midst of a rebuilding process, especially with so much uncertainty.

I think Zhitnik will be dealt at some point this year, and I don't think it'll be for any more than around 2nd round pick and change value.


Oh, I disagree wholeheartedly with the statement I've chosen to boldface. Regier has a history of waiting for a deal to sweeten before pulling the trigger (Barnaby, Peca). There's the famous story of him asking for Sakic when Lacroix called about Jay McKee. Even in the salary dumps last year, the Sabres either came out clearly on top (Briere for Gratton) or ended up with some pretty good prospects (Klepis and Ryan). As for Golisano, every indication he's given is that playoffs are what's important this year. Evidence you ask? When he bought the team a $30 mil budget was announced. The Sabres are currently operating at around $32 mil. Not a huge difference but if management is going to allow a little leeway here it's clear that they're looking to make playoff dollars, not save money now. If Zhitnik's not going to get more than a two, he's not going anywhere, bank on it. Whether they're a playoff team or not is the $3.75 millikno dollar question...

As for Zhitnik post-CBA. I agree with you that he in all likelihood won't be a Sabre, but at the right price I wouldn't be surprised if he's back. I personally don't try to predict the contract landscape after 2004 so I couldn't even begin to imagine what kind of dollars he'll command.

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12-01-2003, 08:44 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Actually, you could characterize me as a Leafs fan. They are one of my favorite teams outside of the Canucks. Right along with the Flames and Oilers, the Leafs are probobly my 2nd - 4th favorite team in the league, and I watch 'em a ton.

I think if another poll were to go up, who is better on the ice, Zhitnik or Kaberle, Zhitnik would win that out. But I think you Sabres fans might underrate just what that salary and approaching UFA-ness does to a player. While it's pretty safe to say that both Kaberle and Zhitnik probobly are as good as they are ever going to get, Kaberle is making a ton less money and is more of a sure bet to be a leaf past the CBA. Frankly, I would be shocked if Zhitnik is a Sabre after the CBA drops, and I think many Sabres fans would feel the same.

As for waiting for a sweetheart deal, I don't think your GM or owner feels the same way. Zhitnik is in a similar position to what Ragnarsson and McGillis are in. Top 3 defensemen (arguably I suppose, Zhitnik is the best of the three mind you, so it would effect the returns) making too much money for their teams to be interesting in keeping around. And the approaching UFA-ness, well, keeping Zhitnik would be a pretty silly move considering the Sabres are in the midst of a rebuilding process, especially with so much uncertainty.

I think Zhitnik will be dealt at some point this year, and I don't think it'll be for any more than around 2nd round pick and change value.
I tend not to agree with that statement anymore. Unless the Sabres have some other ideas up their sleeves, I don't believe the team could let Zhitnik go at this point, or after the season. A Sabres blueline without Zhitnik would be pretty ugly. McKee, Kalinin, Tallinder, Campbell, Fitzpatrick and Delmore.....that's just not good enough, and the lack of scoring there is disgusting. There's no help in Rochester and no help in juniors. Sabres will have to bite the bullet to keep Zhitnik or replace him with a very comparable player.

Judging from what you are saying, the Sabres can't afford to follow what you put forth at the end of your query. They can't give up a 30 minute a night d-man for table scraps. They'll have to re-sign Zhitnik. What rebuilding process? You mean spending a comparable to more amount of money from last season?

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12-01-2003, 11:29 PM
  #91
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This is one of the funniest threads in a long time.

Let me get this right.

The Sabres have a better defense....and better offense, better coaching, better general manager and probally in your opinion better goaltending.

yet year after year the Leafs outpoint you and usually its not close.

Guess the Leafs are the luckiest team in the NHL.

And btw with 31 points and 17 games on the road. I think the word contender the Leafs have earned

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12-02-2003, 03:15 AM
  #92
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Regardless of whether you're a leaf fan or a sabres fan, you have got to love the rivalry!

I'd love to see these two teams meet again in the post-season. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the Sabres make it.

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12-02-2003, 03:41 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by NataSatan666
I think the word contender the Leafs have earned
OK, Yoda.

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12-02-2003, 03:43 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Mizral
I think if another poll were to go up, who is better on the ice, Zhitnik or Kaberle, Zhitnik would win that out.
The truth is that they are very similar in icetime, +/- and points this year. The question is would either team be better if you were to swap the two?

Over 25 games, Kaberle edges out Zhitnik with a +3 vs. a +1, 10 points vs. 9 on a team with better goal-tending and better offense.

Zhitnik is older, but you could argue that trading for him, you would know what you are getting with a potential for upside that he may break through again with better numbers. You'd be taking a $1 million risk, and most likely lose him to UFA after 2003, so you better believe you can win a cup with him. Z's been to the cup a few times and shows up in the playoffs.

Kaberle on the other hand is younger, and slightly cheaper, and could be top 10 defensemen in the league (in my opinion, Zhitnik and Kaberle both land somewhere in the top 10-20 range). However, if you were to aquire him for someone like Zhitnik, you are probably out of the playoff hunt and are looking toward post 2004. Kaberle has taken some untimely PIM's in the post-season and has never been to the cup.

It's hard to imagine either team making this swap as Kaberle has more upside than Zhitnik. But with Kaberle's youth comes some post-season question marks.

I personally would see Toronto wanting both Kaberle and Zhitnik, and having to give up a good prospect to get over their defensive hump that's been holding them up the last few years in the playoffs.

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12-02-2003, 04:16 AM
  #95
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I'd say that is a very fair assessment. Leafs would be looking to add Zhitnik to a core including Kaberle and McCabe, not displace one of those to get Zhitnik. Trading Kaberle to get Zhitnik wouldn't improve the defense enough (assuming it does, chemistry, quality and such) to justify the significant increase in age.

As for Kaberle, he wasn't playing well last playoffs, but that pretty much applied to the entire team. The year before he was instrumental in the Leafs cup run, logging major minutes together with Bryan McCabe.

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Old
12-02-2003, 06:09 AM
  #96
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I think it's fare to say that Alexi is the Sabres best Defenseman and understandable the value they place on his head. I seriously doubt it's even an option in Toronto's JFJ's mind to move Kabby.
Toronto wouldn't do this deal as it does not improve the team they would be about where they left off before the trade. Besides Tucker is playing some of the best hockey I have seen him play in years possibly in his career. And Kabby is starting to come around and play the kind of hockey we are use to seeing out of him. Only way the leafs deal for Alexi is for picks or prospects. So I think it's safe to say this is beating a dead horse.

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