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11-15-2006, 06:10 PM
  #51
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I think we would have a tough time winning without Olli also, and while he has had a tough start to the year (relatively), I think he will heat up. While Newy would make a fine captian for this team, Olli is doing a good job also. He is the face of the franchise now that Louie is gone and he always says the right things to the media. He will be here for a long time (hopefully the rest of his career) and if this team is going to have long-term success, he will need to be the driving force.

I say we leave the C on Olli. He is not the problem. Lets just leave everything as is for now and give things a few weeks to turn aroud. when we are 6-7 games under .500, it will be time to panic.

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11-15-2006, 07:07 PM
  #52
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i'm on record as saying i don't believe olli is captain material and i think this stretch, just as last november, is evidence to support that claim. at this moment, i think it'd be more appropos to take his C and give him a tutu. we can't do that though for many different reasons. he needs to step up into it. i don't want to read the same garbage in the media every morning after a loss. i want to see him go out there and bust his *** and will this team to win. his performance the other night was pathetic. he passed up one golden opportunity in the slot with the score 0-1 (we NEED him to shoot when he gets those chances - he's got the best shot on the team) and on several ocassions just "lost" the puck (i.e., it rolled off his stick) while leading a rush. and we're starting to see him standing helplessly in front of our goaltender as the puck goes in, having lost his check. that's something we saw a bunch of a few years ago.

bottom line is he is not playing like a captain right now.


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11-15-2006, 08:29 PM
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So...what does Martin do now?
My guess is...the same thing he's done since becoming GM and coach = nothing.

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11-16-2006, 07:29 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by wpring View Post
I think we would have a tough time winning without Olli also, and while he has had a tough start to the year (relatively), I think he will heat up. While Newy would make a fine captian for this team, Olli is doing a good job also. He is the face of the franchise now that Louie is gone and he always says the right things to the media. He will be here for a long time (hopefully the rest of his career) and if this team is going to have long-term success, he will need to be the driving force.

I say we leave the C on Olli. He is not the problem. Lets just leave everything as is for now and give things a few weeks to turn aroud. when we are 6-7 games under .500, it will be time to panic.
I don't believe we should wait until we're 6-7 under .500, as that would drop us too far back in our division for us to have a reasonable chance of catching back up.

I am not suggesting we get rid of Olli, simply give another the C so what we can to add on-ice leadership to this team. Olli's a great player, but he's not a motivator like Niewy and other captains around the league are.

I am also not suggesting we give the C to Niewy. ALthough he SHOULD be wearing it, he's too often injured to be an effective captain.

I believe it's an element we're missing.

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11-16-2006, 01:04 PM
  #55
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Like I said in the other thread, this team needs to build chemistry.

Maybe we're not the best team out there, but our lack of chemistry is a problem. If you think about it, there's only so much that a coaches system can do, the rest is up to the players.

For the last 6 years (coincidentally the last time we made the playoffs? I think not), this team has been shuffling lines to different linemates every game. I see Kolnik play with Gelinas, Jokinen, Horton, Olesz, Gratton, Roberts, everyone. That's not how it should. You may say that Martin is just trying to find chemistry between players, but that rarely happens (see Olesz-Nieuwy-Bert). Players need to grow together on the ice and learn who has what to offer and how the other can use that to their advantage.

Martin needs to make a lineup and stick with it. I know it's difficult with injuries but there's a way around it. It's the order. Say Nieuwy gets injured, move Stumpel up, than Gratton, and call up someone from the minors.

This team needs to build chemistry because for the last 6 years, they haven't had the chance to. That in my opinion is one of the larger problems this team has.

Edit: Oh, and Olli is not the problem. He's the team captain right now. He has a history or starting slow. There's no reason to strip him of the C. Him and Stumpel carried this team last year at the end stretch. Jokinen is a great player and I don't want to seem him lose the C at all. Plus, who else would you see fitting to wear the C? Nieuwy? He's gone after this year. Gelinas? no. Gratton? no. Bouwmeester? too quiet to be captain material.


Last edited by JonathanHuberdoh: 11-16-2006 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Add some more info.
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11-16-2006, 02:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ThePanthemarsVolta View Post
Like I said in the other thread, this team needs to build chemistry.

Maybe we're not the best team out there, but our lack of chemistry is a problem. If you think about it, there's only so much that a coaches system can do, the rest is up to the players.

For the last 6 years (coincidentally the last time we made the playoffs? I think not), this team has been shuffling lines to different linemates every game. I see Kolnik play with Gelinas, Jokinen, Horton, Olesz, Gratton, Roberts, everyone. That's not how it should. You may say that Martin is just trying to find chemistry between players, but that rarely happens (see Olesz-Nieuwy-Bert). Players need to grow together on the ice and learn who has what to offer and how the other can use that to their advantage.

Martin needs to make a lineup and stick with it. I know it's difficult with injuries but there's a way around it. It's the order. Say Nieuwy gets injured, move Stumpel up, than Gratton, and call up someone from the minors.

This team needs to build chemistry because for the last 6 years, they haven't had the chance to. That in my opinion is one of the larger problems this team has.

Edit: Oh, and Olli is not the problem. He's the team captain right now. He has a history or starting slow. There's no reason to strip him of the C. Him and Stumpel carried this team last year at the end stretch. Jokinen is a great player and I don't want to seem him lose the C at all. Plus, who else would you see fitting to wear the C? Nieuwy? He's gone after this year. Gelinas? no. Gratton? no. Bouwmeester? too quiet to be captain material.
I agree, Olli is a good captain for this team. I do not see anything he has done to suggest he should be stripped of the C. He has had a slow start but he will get going and lead us to the playoffs.

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11-16-2006, 03:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ThePanthemarsVolta View Post
Edit: Oh, and Olli is not the problem. He's the team captain right now. He has a history or starting slow. There's no reason to strip him of the C. Him and Stumpel carried this team last year at the end stretch. Jokinen is a great player and I don't want to seem him lose the C at all. Plus, who else would you see fitting to wear the C? Nieuwy? He's gone after this year. Gelinas? no. Gratton? no. Bouwmeester? too quiet to be captain material.
olli's not part of the solution right now so, by definition, he's part of the problem. and you don't need a vocal rah-rah captain. stevie y apparently never said a word in the room. just went out and busted his hump every night. they are different players and each captain is going to handle things differently but when a team goes through stretches like this team has under his "leadership", there's a problem. also consider why we all keep saying the team *needs* newy in there in order to compete and stay on an even keel. i wonder what our record is with newy in the lineup versus out?

olli's not going to lose his captaincy. that's just not going to happen and i'm not advocating that. he does need to be held accountable. you can't show up and just play pepper with the opposing goalie when you're the captain.

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11-16-2006, 04:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by michaels87 View Post
olli's not part of the solution right now so, by definition, he's part of the problem. and you don't need a vocal rah-rah captain. stevie y apparently never said a word in the room. just went out and busted his hump every night. they are different players and each captain is going to handle things differently but when a team goes through stretches like this team has under his "leadership", there's a problem. also consider why we all keep saying the team *needs* newy in there in order to compete and stay on an even keel. i wonder what our record is with newy in the lineup versus out?

olli's not going to lose his captaincy. that's just not going to happen and i'm not advocating that. he does need to be held accountable. you can't show up and just play pepper with the opposing goalie when you're the captain.
Panthers record this season (with Nieuwendyk in): 2 wins 6 losses (3 in OT/SO)
Panthers record last season (with Nieuwendyk in): 33 wins 32 losses (7 in OT/SO)

Panthers record overall (with Nieuwendyk in): 35 wins 38 losses (10 in OT/SO)

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11-16-2006, 04:28 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Panthers record this season (with Nieuwendyk in): 2 wins 6 losses (3 in OT/SO)
Panthers record last season (with Nieuwendyk in): 33 wins 32 losses (7 in OT/SO)

Panthers record overall (with Nieuwendyk in): 35 wins 38 losses (10 in OT/SO)
ok, but we haven't exactly had a stellar record overall so this (35-28-10) may be more impressive than it appears. considering where we ended up last year and where we are now, i think the numbers w/o are going to look noticeably worse.


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11-16-2006, 04:51 PM
  #60
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ok, but we haven't exactly had a stellar record overall so this (35-28-10) may be more impressive than it appears. considering where we ended up last year and where we are now, i think the numbers w/o are going to look noticeably worse.
35-28-10 Newy in
8-15-5 Newy out

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11-16-2006, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wpring View Post
35-28-10 Newy in
8-15-5 Newy out
I'm not arguing against the point that Nieuwendyk is a valuable source of offense and leadership to the Florida Panthers, but at the same time we should think about potential statistical impurities in those numbers. Wasn't Roberts out during the same time that Nieuwendyk was last season? Isn't Bertuzzi out at the same time this season (at least in part)? I'm pretty sure Horton was out last season for much of the same time that Nieuwendyk was as well. Just something to take into account.

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11-16-2006, 05:07 PM
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I'm not arguing against the point that Nieuwendyk is a valuable source of offense and leadership to the Florida Panthers, but at the same time we should think about potential statistical impurities in those numbers. Wasn't Roberts out during the same time that Nieuwendyk was last season? Isn't Bertuzzi out at the same time this season (at least in part)? I'm pretty sure Horton was out last season for much of the same time that Nieuwendyk was as well. Just something to take into account.
GRob missed most of him time last year after Newy cam back, though he did miss a few while Newy was out. Horton and Olesz missed time while Newy was in but Weiss missed a lot of time when Newy was out. All-in-all it is a wash and the reality is we seem to have a WAY better chance of winning when he is in the lineup.


Last edited by wpring: 11-16-2006 at 05:08 PM. Reason: very poor spelling
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11-16-2006, 09:08 PM
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what i saw tonight was newy taking control - he skates and stickhandles so well and has so much poise with the puck. he's not afraid to take the puck all the way around the rink to open things up. i think the way he handles the puck affects the other guys. for example, i haven't seen stumpy so relaxed with the puck in a long while. it's as if a confidence spreads down the bench when the guys see him doing his thing out there.

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11-16-2006, 11:28 PM
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Jokinen pretty muc proved everything I said earlier today with his performance tonight.

The team really needed a lift and what does OUR CAPTAIN do? Scores a Hat-Trick and the GWG. Talk about leading by example.

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11-17-2006, 07:51 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ThePanthemarsVolta View Post
Jokinen pretty muc proved everything I said earlier today with his performance tonight.

The team really needed a lift and what does OUR CAPTAIN do? Scores a Hat-Trick and the GWG. Talk about leading by example.
please. did you watch the game at all? his first goal was a really weak wrister that your average men's league goalie's going to stop. as goldie and potvin commented, it was a deflating goal for the habs. the second was good play (to settle the puck down) but horton really set him up with an open net. and the third was the absolute definition of a garbage goal. sure, he got the goals but that was no messier "we will win" hat trick.

like i said above, the biggest difference imo tonight was newy.

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11-17-2006, 08:19 AM
  #66
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I'll take goals however this team can score them. Empty net...deflection off another team's player...whatever. In the past couple of years, Olli has really stepped up. I think he deserves the 'C'. He generally starts his seasons slow, then heats up. I'm ok with that. Not to mention, he earned respect points with me last year when he had could have signed somewhere else for more money. He showed loyalty to the team...that's a rare thing these days.

I will agree that having Joe back gives the guys an extra spark. I will be heartbroken the day he retires.

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11-17-2006, 11:35 AM
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Olli can score, there is no doubt in my mind that he is an extraordinary asset to this team.

However, my argument is the intangible. Our team as a whole players harder when Niewy's in the lineup. Niewy's a better leader than Olli is. Kinda reminds me of what Skrudland and Mellanby were to this team.

They kept their teammates heads in the game and off the scoreboard.

Olli's a helluva scorer, but it something goes wrong his mood changes dramatically. That uneven keel is not something you want in a leader, or in a team you want to be consistant. That emotion is something you hope for in a scorer, not a leader.

Is Niewy the answer? With that back of his, probably not, but it does show that next year we're going to need a character guy like him. It's something we only seem to have when Joe's not hurt.

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11-17-2006, 11:42 AM
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Olli can score, there is no doubt in my mind that he is an extraordinary asset to this team.

However, my argument is the intangible. Our team as a whole players harder when Niewy's in the lineup. Niewy's a better leader than Olli is. Kinda reminds me of what Skrudland and Mellanby were to this team.

They kept their teammates heads in the game and off the scoreboard.

Olli's a helluva scorer, but it something goes wrong his mood changes dramatically. That uneven keel is not something you want in a leader, or in a team you want to be consistant. That emotion is something you hope for in a scorer, not a leader.

Is Niewy the answer? With that back of his, probably not, but it does show that next year we're going to need a character guy like him. It's something we only seem to have when Joe's not hurt.
Lets just hope we can bring Joe back for another year or two while Olli developes into the guy you want him to be. 10-12 years ago Joe was exactly where Olli is now, give Olli more time to learn and in a couple years he will be that guy who the team depends on.

For now, I agree Joe is the key guy. But having Olli as our captain will help him develope into that guy so he can take Joe's spot when he's gone. It is easy to underestimate how important Olli is since we have not had to go without him like we have Joe.

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11-17-2006, 01:08 PM
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Lets just hope we can bring Joe back for another year or two while Olli developes into the guy you want him to be. 10-12 years ago Joe was exactly where Olli is now, give Olli more time to learn and in a couple years he will be that guy who the team depends on.
Personally I think Steven Weiss is learning more from Joe than Olli is, and will eventually be the person to replace him as best as he can. Weiss will be the future captain of the team, and Olli will eventually be traded to enhance the future of the team (he'll garner a bit from some teams).

Not saying this happens tomorrow - more likely around the time Olli's current contract is set to expire. It will simply be the business and economic environment of the NHL at the time.

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11-17-2006, 01:11 PM
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Lets just hope we can bring Joe back for another year or two while Olli developes into the guy you want him to be. 10-12 years ago Joe was exactly where Olli is now, give Olli more time to learn and in a couple years he will be that guy who the team depends on.
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11-17-2006, 01:22 PM
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Lets just hope we can bring Joe back for another year or two while Olli developes into the guy you want him to be. 10-12 years ago Joe was exactly where Olli is now, give Olli more time to learn and in a couple years he will be that guy who the team depends on.
i don't know. i just don't see it. newy won a cup early in his career and i don't know that he was ever considered a sniper or scorer or whatever you'd call olli. they seem to be two different types of players. olli's struggled with his work ethic and confidence through his early years. of course he has been on some pretty bad teams...

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For now, I agree Joe is the key guy. But having Olli as our captain will help him develope into that guy so he can take Joe's spot when he's gone. It is easy to underestimate how important Olli is since we have not had to go without him like we have Joe.
absolutely true and i was going to mention that above. it's certainly possible we'd be squashed without his goal production. many teams would struggle without their top scorer. the question though is whether the team would miss his intangibles. maybe you can't separate the two on a team that depends so heavily on one scorer.

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11-17-2006, 02:10 PM
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Personally I think Steven Weiss is learning more from Joe than Olli is, and will eventually be the person to replace him as best as he can. Weiss will be the future captain of the team, and Olli will eventually be traded to enhance the future of the team (he'll garner a bit from some teams).

Not saying this happens tomorrow - more likely around the time Olli's current contract is set to expire. It will simply be the business and economic environment of the NHL at the time.
I definitely think Weiss is learning a lot by having Joe on the team, but I don't know that he'll be the future captain. I certainly see his value more than many on these boards do, but he has a ways to go, imo, to be able to wear the C. He does a great job on special teams.

As far as Olli being traded, I think that's a possibility also. Would be nice to see him be a lot more consistent.

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11-17-2006, 02:21 PM
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there is no way nieuwendyk comes back next year - his body is telling him something, and it sure as hell isn't to play another year. the way the last few weeks have gone, we should consider ourselves lucky if he even plays half of the remaining games this year.

when he playes, he's still effective, but his body can't take it anymore. he's done after this year.

as far as jokinen - he's 27, so what you see is what you get. i don't understand most of the complaints though - he scored 89 points last year, far exceeding what i (or anyone, for that matter) expected from him. he is what he is - a good player, but i think many people here are expecting too much out of him. he's not a superstar like a thornton or jagr, but since he is our best some may expect him to score like one. he isn't the problem with this team - he's at over a point per game right now and he probably isn't a true point-per-game player. he is doing fine. our offensive struggles are coming from our supposed "depth" not scoring. olesz with one goal? gelinas with one goal? roberts has been a non-factor offensively. where has stumpel been? those are the problems right now, not jokinen.

he may not be mark messier as a captain but i think he does a pretty damn good job there too. he takes responsibility personally for the team alot of time in the press (unlike luongo who would blame his defensmen or make excuses), but he also calls them like he sees them. doesn't call anyone out personally but he also doesn't let the team off the hook if they stink. he stands up for them - unlike some other captains around the league. forsberg just walked out on his team in tampa after a tough loss without speaking to the press. now THATS a bad captain....

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11-17-2006, 02:42 PM
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there is no way nieuwendyk comes back next year - his body is telling him something, and it sure as hell isn't to play another year. the way the last few weeks have gone, we should consider ourselves lucky if he even plays half of the remaining games this year.

when he playes, he's still effective, but his body can't take it anymore. he's done after this year.



he may not be mark messier as a captain but i think he does a pretty damn good job there too. he takes responsibility personally for the team alot of time in the press (unlike luongo who would blame his defensmen or make excuses), but he also calls them like he sees them. doesn't call anyone out personally but he also doesn't let the team off the hook if they stink. he stands up for them - unlike some other captains around the league. forsberg just walked out on his team in tampa after a tough loss without speaking to the press. now THATS a bad captain....

I hope your not right about Joe. Assuming the doctors tell him there is no risk of long-term damage, and he remains effective, I hope he keeps on playing. I agree with your assesment of Olli's captaincy. I can't think of one thing he should improve on except scoring consistently. I think he will score consistently this year and end up with 90-95 pts. Once he does this a couple more times and wins a cup with Florida he will be the seasoned veteran that Newy has been for the last numbe rof years. I hope Olli wins a cup and becomes a Panther for life. I hope he is the face of the franchise (and the captian) for the next 10 years or more until he retires. I think he would be the perfect guy for the job.

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11-17-2006, 02:55 PM
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i like niewendyk - but the writing is on the wall. he considered retirement during last season and this past offseason as well. im guessing he didn't because he felt he had an obligation to the panthers, and when healthy he is still an asset, but his contract is up after this season and it will be all for him. his back is made out of spaghetti.

hopefully we can make one last run for nieuwy and let him out on top.

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