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GDT: 11/16/06 Parlez-vous français? - Canadiens Vs. Panthers

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11-17-2006, 01:53 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Boulton is cheaper than OJ. A risk, but a risk that may work.

Bouwmeester is on the level of Pitkanen and Phaneuf. Defensively and offensively now he is on the same level. Bouwmeester has a slighty worse Points ratio so far, but offensively he isn't that far behind anymore. Defensively he is awesome.

Pitkanen hasn't scored a goal yet interestingly. Now it will be interesting to hear what you say about this. I could see you contradicting yourself here
Boulton isn't a first liner but a 4th liner unlike Jokinen, so he'd be compared to our 4th liners (i.e., Campbell/Kiwi for starters) but again you're reaching...but you keep trying ok?

As far as Bouwmeester being in the same class as Phaneuf/Pitkanen...why don't you go start another poll on the main board again and see how it goes? It might be more favorable this time around actually.

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11-17-2006, 01:57 PM
  #77
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Actually, I'd rather have Phaneuf/Pitkanen like most...especially since Boulton is a forward and could easily replace say Campbell/Kwiatkowski instead?
bouwmeester - 4 goals, 10 points. on pace for 16 goals and 42 points - and this on a team struggling to score. not that i put much stock into +/-, but he is a +6 on a team with a sub-.500 record and playing nearly 26 minutes a night.

your beef with him all last year was he doesn't score goals...well, now he has more goals than phaneuf and pitkanen combined, yet you'd still rather have them? how does that work? not that i think goals are the true barometer of a defensman (said that last year, they mean very little actually), but it goes to show how ridiculous some of your gripes against bouwmeester were/are. what will you start with now? your hate for bouwmeester is unconditional. he could score 75 points, win the norris and conn smythe and you would still find something to diminish what he means to this team.

is he the best player on the panthers? i'm not sure, comparing him to jokinen is pointless as they play different positions, but what i am sure of is he is evolving into one of the best defensmen in the NHL and is 23 years old....and you continue to rip him. just because luongo showed the same promise and failed to join the elite doesn't mean bouwmeester will too. he's obviously not at scott niedermayer's or chris pronger's level yet, but he sure seems to be on the right path if he continues to improve the way he has the last few seasons. he's a bonafide #1 at 23 years old....what else do you want from him?

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11-17-2006, 02:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Boulton isn't a first liner but a 4th liner unlike Jokinen, so he'd be compared to our 4th liners (i.e., Campbell/Kiwi for starters) but again you're reaching...but you keep trying ok?

As far as Bouwmeester being in the same class as Phaneuf/Pitkanen...why don't you go start another poll on the main board again and see how it goes? It might be more favorable this time around actually.
why do you value the main boards opinion now when you rip the majority of them for thinking luongo is elite? because they support your opinion?

i'd take phaneuf over bouwmeester, mainly because he is intimidating to play against on top of being a force, but it would be damn close. pitkanen - no chance. he's more offensively skilled but turning into a disaster in his own end. he may put up more points, but i dont think you'd find many people taking sandis ozolinsh in his prime over pronger.

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11-17-2006, 02:06 PM
  #79
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... but what i am sure of is he is evolving into one of the best defensmen in the NHL and is 23 years old....and you continue to rip him. just because luongo showed the same promise and failed to join the elite doesn't mean bouwmeester will too. he's obviously not at scott niedermayer's or chris pronger's level yet, but he sure seems to be on the right path if he continues to improve the way he has the last few seasons. he's a bonafide #1 at 23 years old....what else do you want from him?

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11-17-2006, 02:06 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Boulton isn't a first liner but a 4th liner unlike Jokinen, so he'd be compared to our 4th liners (i.e., Campbell/Kiwi for starters) but again you're reaching...but you keep trying ok?

As far as Bouwmeester being in the same class as Phaneuf/Pitkanen...why don't you go start another poll on the main board again and see how it goes? It might be more favorable this time around actually.
Obviously you didn't understand me. But hey, Eric Boulton is awesome .

If you can come up with a reasonable argument why Bouwmeester is not on the level of Pitkanen/Phaneuf then i'll happily accept you and your view. However arguements like "He doesn't score enough" or "Do a poll" aren't a good base for an opinion. Bouwmeester has 4 more goals than Pitkanen, so i assume by your way of accessing Defensive players Pitkanen must be inferior. You have just contradicted yourself i believe. Obviously you will counter this, and Goals are not the best way to judge how good a player is.

Of course the polls are going to favour Phaneuf/Pitkanen. For one alot of posters still have limited knowledge of the Panthers. Most people still haven't realised how awesome Jay is. Knowledgable posters from other team boards have acknowledged how good he is. His time will come. I'd also point out that i'd still rather have Phaneuf to Bouwmeester at this current time. The different between the two isn't big though.

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11-17-2006, 02:16 PM
  #81
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Especially those in the Northwest, they have not had a chance to see Bouwmeester in a long time (if ever?) Playing away there will get him some exposure and you can watch his game right up close to Phaneuf's. I would say out of those 3, Bouwmeester is the most well rounded. He doesn't overly excel at offense, defense, or hitting, he's very above average in all of them. At 23, he is making wonderful progress and of course he's excellent skater, virtually always the first one back in the zone and beating out some rushes.

You can argue that he'd only be a #1 on this team, but how many teams have bonafide #1 defensemen anyway? Carolina sure didn't when they won the cup. Everyone fell in love with Luongo but the last year or two we all picked up on some of his shortcomings. Now every player has their shortcomings, but I don't find that Bouwmeester makes many mistakes for such a young guy. Does he make mistakes? Yeah, any player will but 90% of the time he will make the right decision and that's all you can ask for.

And J17 is right about his exposure. Have to face the fact that the Panthers are one of the last teams most other fans are going to think of, especially fans of non-Southeast division teams. This team is looked down upon by most and has to gain respect around the league. You don't have to like Bouw but what is your argument for thinking this way, if I may ask?

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11-17-2006, 02:20 PM
  #82
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bouwmeester - 4 goals, 10 points. on pace for 16 goals and 42 points - and this on a team struggling to score. not that i put much stock into +/-, but he is a +6 on a team with a sub-.500 record and playing nearly 26 minutes a night.
Bouwmeester has slightly better numbers *now*, but careerwise (as in overall thus far)...Phaneuf and Pitkanen have been far closer to reaching their potential than Bouwmeester has come in 5 years. Bouw should be scoring AT LEAST 7 goals this season and every season since coming into the league, considering he scored an average of 13 in Juniors. So just because he's got 4 goals in 20 games and is on pace ( ) for 16 goals...I should be impressed? I'll be impressed when if he gets 17 goals this year to offset the 10 more he should have at least had already at this point...he was touted as an OFFENSIVE defenseman...purely racking up on assists (2ndary for the most part) doesn't cover that. He gets the most ice time than anyone else on this team yet...he should have the most points especially with his "speed."

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your beef with him all last year was he doesn't score goals...well, now he has more goals than phaneuf and pitkanen combined, yet you'd still rather have them? how does that work? not that i think goals are the true barometer of a defensman (said that last year, they mean very little actually), but it goes to show how ridiculous some of your gripes against bouwmeester were/are. what will you start with now? your hate for bouwmeester is unconditional. he could score 75 points, win the norris and conn smythe and you would still find something to diminish what he means to this team.
Bouwmeester - 245 GP 15 G 92 PTS 137 PIM

That should impress me because...?

Pitkanen - 169 GP 21 G 89 PTS 150 PIM
Phaneuf - 105 GP 24 G 60 PTS 133 PIM

Mind you, these two are younger than Bouw, have played less minutes, and spend more time in the sin bin yet are still more productive. That's impressive.

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is he the best player on the panthers? i'm not sure, comparing him to jokinen is pointless as they play different positions, but what i am sure of is he is evolving into one of the best defensmen in the NHL and is 23 years old....and you continue to rip him. just because luongo showed the same promise and failed to join the elite doesn't mean bouwmeester will too. he's obviously not at scott niedermayer's or chris pronger's level yet, but he sure seems to be on the right path if he continues to improve the way he has the last few seasons. he's a bonafide #1 at 23 years old....what else do you want from him?
If you think he's that and would be on most teams...then please explain to me why he doesn't have as impressive numbers throughout his career? Please give me the excuses for Jaybo that others have had here about Luongo? He's no where near Niedermayer's level or Pronger's and definitely not Orr's yet people have been buying his hype just like Luongo and have already overrated him. He's good, but he's not great. People call him top 10 in the NHL though? Excuse me??? Unreal how some fans like to overrate their players and then complain when get called out for being homers. Like I've said numerous times...potential means squat if unfulfilled and one good season doesn't not a great player make. Only consistency does that and so far in their careers...Phaneuf and Pitkanen have consistently been better than Bouwmeester.


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11-17-2006, 02:23 PM
  #83
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why do you value the main boards opinion now when you rip the majority of them for thinking luongo is elite? because they support your opinion?
Actually, it's an inside joke with J117...nothing to do with the opinion of the main board having value or not.

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i'd take phaneuf over bouwmeester, mainly because he is intimidating to play against on top of being a force, but it would be damn close. pitkanen - no chance. he's more offensively skilled but turning into a disaster in his own end. he may put up more points, but i dont think you'd find many people taking sandis ozolinsh in his prime over pronger.
Maybe so but Bouwmeester is no Chris Pronger and never will be. They don't even play the same style. Why are people still comparing them?

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11-17-2006, 02:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Actually, it's an inside joke with J117...nothing to do with the opinion of the main board having value or not.



Maybe so but Bouwmeester is no Chris Pronger and never will be. They don't even play the same style. Why are people still comparing them?
I agree with you partially! Bouwmeester reminds me of a Carbon copy of Niedermayer. One reason for Pronger/Bouwmeester comparisons may be due to both starting slowly in their NHL careers.

You point out Bouwmeester, Pitkanens and Phaneufs career stats. That isn't a good indicator to how good they are now. The most relevant stats are the last two years. Bouwmeester started playing right after his draft year in the NHL. Very few do that on the D end. He may have taken longer to develop, but it is the end product that counts. Offensively we are beginning to see his stats compare favourable with Pitkanen and Phaneuf. His defense is awesome, and he is hitting alot more. Add that with his skating and we have a Top 5 dman in the league for the future.

Btw, Bouwmeester hasn't been compared to Orr for a long time. I think we recognise Bouwmeester is never going to live up to that hype.

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11-17-2006, 02:41 PM
  #85
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Obviously you didn't understand me. But hey, Eric Boulton is awesome .
No, I understood you all right...but I found it silly is all.

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If you can come up with a reasonable argument why Bouwmeester is not on the level of Pitkanen/Phaneuf then i'll happily accept you and your view.
He's an offensive defenseman that hasn't produced to his potential while younger (Phaneuf) or players his age (Pitkanen) have while playing less minutes and in less amount of games and not given nearly as much opportunity to develop as he has. They are farther along than Bouwmeester and Jay's been in the league longer. I have a problem with that, yeah...especially when we had the chance to take better players in his draft.

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However arguements like "He doesn't score enough" or "Do a poll" aren't a good base for an opinion.
Why not? They did before for you or did you forget the poll you made in order to prove that most people agreed with you more than with me in regards JBouw?

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Bouwmeester has 4 more goals than Pitkanen, so i assume by your way of accessing Defensive players Pitkanen must be inferior.
But if you assume that then that would negate your way of assessing defensive players since you value assists more than goals and Pitkanen has more at this point in time so which is it? Bouwmeester needs at least 13 more goals THIS season before I start laying off.

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You have just contradicted yourself i believe. Obviously you will counter this, and Goals are not the best way to judge how good a player is.
But assists are right? That's why they have a trophy for assists and not goals of course.

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Of course the polls are going to favour Phaneuf/Pitkanen. For one alot of posters still have limited knowledge of the Panthers. Most people still haven't realised how awesome Jay is. Knowledgable posters from other team boards have acknowledged how good he is. His time will come. I'd also point out that i'd still rather have Phaneuf to Bouwmeester at this current time. The different between the two isn't big though.
Yeah, that's it...lack of exposure is why Bouwmeester is not considered better than Pitkanen/Phaneuf right now. Come on now.

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11-17-2006, 02:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Bouwmeester has slightly better numbers *now*, but careerwise (as in overall thus far)...Phaneuf and Pitkanen have been far closer to reaching their potential than Bouwmeester has come in 5 years. Bouw should be scoring AT LEAST 7 goals this season since coming into the league, considering he scored an average of 13 in Juniors. So just because he's got 4 goals in 20 games and is on pace ( ) for 16 goals...I should be impressed? I'll be impressed when if he gets 17 goals this year to offset the 10 more he should have at least had already at this point...he was touted as an OFFENSIVE defenseman...purely racking up on assists (2ndary for the most part) doesn't cover that. He gets the most ice time than anyone else on this team yet...he should have the most points especially with his "speed."



Bouwmeester - 245 GP 15 G 92 PTS 137 PIM

That should impress me because...?

Pitkanen - 169 GP 21 G 89 PTS 150 PIM
Phaneuf - 105 GP 24 G 60 PTS 133 PIM

Mind you, these two are younger than Bouw, have played less minutes, and spend more time in the sin bin yet are still more productive. That's impressive.
career numbers? funny...

so because bouwmeester wasn't as good as pitkanen was five years ago - that means he isn't as good -or-better now?

joe nieuwendyk has 1124 career points - sidney crosby has 124 career points. would you rather have nieuwendyk over crosby?

he (bouwmeester) didn't find the immediate success pitkanen/phaneuf did, but he also was put in a much tougher situation than either of those two were. i know you'll claim that as an excuse, but either way, it doesnt matter. career numbers mean absolutley nothing unless you're trying to induct someone into the hall of fame. we aren't. right now, bouwmeester is a much more sound defensman than pitkanen in his own end and putting up similar numbers offensively. he is clear-cut a much more wellrounded defensman. i'm not going to argue with you about phaneuf, because like i said earlier, i'd give him the edge, but your argument to prove it is laughable.

bouwmeester is not in niedermayer's class or pronger's class, you're right, but niedermayer and pronger weren't in niedermayer and pronger class when they were 23. regardless, he definatley is in that "next" group of top defensmen, like phaneuf, redden, ohlund, kaberle, etc. top-10? arguable, but to write it off as if they are out of their mind for saying he's top10 is idiotic. top-10 or not, he's a legit #1 and he's 23. what else do you want?

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11-17-2006, 02:50 PM
  #87
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Maybe so but Bouwmeester is no Chris Pronger and never will be. They don't even play the same style. Why are people still comparing them?
their development has been very similar. but i agree - if i had to compare jay to someone it would be niedermayer, not pronger. not only because of their skating - just the way they play the game. very smart, very fluid in everything they do. bouwmeester is not nearly as aggressive offensively as niedermayer is yet, but hopefully with time that will come.

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11-17-2006, 03:00 PM
  #88
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Lauser3 - I'm usually with you, but you are losing this argument pretty badly. JayBo is playing mighty fine hockey right now. Watching him the last few games, it seems he is finally becoming everything everyone thought he could be. I have officially cancelled my membership in the JayBo bashing club.

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11-17-2006, 03:11 PM
  #89
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Offensive defenseman is a category that includes dmen who have a good nose for setting up offensive plays as well as those who have a hard shot and score lots of goals, may I just point out, as well as those who have a tendency to join in the attack on offensive plays, effectively becoming an extra forward.

JBo has proven himself the past two seasons to play in the offensive dman style - just doesn't have much to show for it except assists, and maybe that's due to a shot that isn't hard or quick enough or accurate enough or I don't know what. Haven't seen enough of his shot to analyze (will note imo he's excessively slow in decision making on the PP like the rest of the team, which is why he doesn't shoot more - he rarely gets a look at the net).

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11-17-2006, 03:19 PM
  #90
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Lauser3 - I'm usually with you, but you are losing this argument pretty badly. JayBo is playing mighty fine hockey right now. Watching him the last few games, it seems he is finally becoming everything everyone thought he could be. I have officially cancelled my membership in the JayBo bashing club.
Kind of like when I was losing the enforcer thread huh? I recall being in the minority then too...now where am I? My point is the kid is a good defenseman but he's far from great or even top 10 and definitely not a Norris candidate like some have called him here. 4 goals and 10 points in 20 games does not erase the 11 goals and only 92 points (a lot of 2ndary assists) in 225 NHL games. Sorry, that's just not how I go...I'm not easily persuaded by a few good games here and there. He's also (like previous) taken some bad penalties but doesn't get flamed while others have? Like I said, he's become the new Roberto Luongo for Florida Panthers fans...as in, he can't do anything wrong and if he does, it'll be downplayed. I'd like to point out that I was in the minority in the Luongo debates as well so only time will tell with Bouwmeester...but he's not living to his 1st overall billing IMO (which is what he was going to be had Dudley not traded down or whatever it was Dufus did).

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11-17-2006, 03:22 PM
  #91
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The only way I see this team making the playoffs is if Jokinen wins the player of the month award meaning we'd be winning games in november by alot.

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11-17-2006, 03:42 PM
  #92
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career numbers? funny...

so because bouwmeester wasn't as good as pitkanen was five years ago - that means he isn't as good -or-better now?

joe nieuwendyk has 1124 career points - sidney crosby has 124 career points. would you rather have nieuwendyk over crosby?
I'd take Crosby over Nieuwendyk now, but I would still take Ovechkin over Crosby...but you should be comparing Crosby to a guy closer in age (like Olesz) on this team instead of a guy nearing the end of his career. If Crosby, were in his prime right now...then it'd be a good example, but as it is now, it's pretty "idiotic" don't you think? Nieuwendyk is in his 40s and at the end of his career, while Crosby is at most 20 I think and just starting out. I don't think they are as comparable as say...Bouwmeester (23 years old), Pitkanen (23 years old), or Phaneuf (21/22) would you?

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he (bouwmeester) didn't find the immediate success pitkanen/phaneuf did, but he also was put in a much tougher situation than either of those two were. i know you'll claim that as an excuse, but either way, it doesnt matter. career numbers mean absolutley nothing unless you're trying to induct someone into the hall of fame. we aren't. right now, bouwmeester is a much more sound defensman than pitkanen in his own end and putting up similar numbers offensively. he is clear-cut a much more wellrounded defensman. i'm not going to argue with you about phaneuf, because like i said earlier, i'd give him the edge, but your argument to prove it is laughable.
But your excuses for Jay are not laughable? I seem to recall Van Ryn playing on the same teams as Jay and still finding ways to outproduce him while playing less minutes. What's your excuse for that? Afterall, MVR is closer to Jay defensively than Jay is to MVR offensively overall.

BTW...how come JBouw gets the "producing on a struggling team right now" excuse but Pitkanen doesn't get that luxury, especially when he's still has more points than Jay in less games? Please tell me you've watched Pitkanen play since coming into the league and this season and are not solely just basing your opinion of him on the +/-. By the way, "right now" can change tomorrow, where as the past doesn't...Pitkanen's been better.

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bouwmeester is not in niedermayer's class or pronger's class, you're right, but niedermayer and pronger weren't in niedermayer and pronger class when they were 23. regardless, he definatley is in that "next" group of top defensmen, like phaneuf, redden, ohlund, kaberle, etc. top-10? arguable, but to write it off as if they are out of their mind for saying he's top10 is idiotic. top-10 or not, he's a legit #1 and he's 23. what else do you want?
He's a #1 defenseman on the Florida Panthers; that's it and it doesn't say a whole lot either or have you seen our depth at that position? Pronger and Niedermayer were farther along OFFENSIVELY at age 23 than JBouw is "right now". How can you not write him off in being a top 10 guy in the league right now when guys like Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake, Redden, Phaneuf, Ohlund, Chara, McCabe, Kaberle, Zubov, Chelios, Rafalski, Foote, etc...are all still playing and haven't retired yet. That's at least 10 right?

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11-17-2006, 03:47 PM
  #93
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I doubt anyone could label Jay a top 10 defenseman in the league. It could be argued that he is however one of the top 10 YOUNG defensemen in the league, it's a bit more arbitrary of course if you choose say, I don't know, under 25?

But there's too many guys in this league with more experience that will outrank him before he gets near the top 10. I wouldn't worry about that for another 5 to 10 years.

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11-17-2006, 04:09 PM
  #94
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Kind of like when I was losing the enforcer thread huh? I recall being in the minority then too...now where am I? My point is the kid is a good defenseman but he's far from great or even top 10 and definitely not a Norris candidate like some have called him here. 4 goals and 10 points in 20 games does not erase the 11 goals and only 92 points (a lot of 2ndary assists) in 225 NHL games. Sorry, that's just not how I go...I'm not easily persuaded by a few good games here and there. He's also (like previous) taken some bad penalties but doesn't get flamed while others have? Like I said, he's become the new Roberto Luongo for Florida Panthers fans...as in, he can't do anything wrong and if he does, it'll be downplayed. I'd like to point out that I was in the minority in the Luongo debates as well so only time will tell with Bouwmeester...but he's not living to his 1st overall billing IMO (which is what he was going to be had Dudley not traded down or whatever it was Dufus did).
Re: the enforcer thread. My point in that thread was that I do not like fighting in hockey. I still don't. I also said that if the NHL enforced its rules, enforcers would not be necessary. Since they don't, I said, I felt the Panthers needed to add that dimension to their roster. I still hold to that opinion, so don't accuse me of flip-flopping.

I'm not suggesting JayBo for the Norris. Far from it. My point is that he has shown marked improvement, I think primarily from a confidence standpoint, since the start of the season. Unlike many disappointing Panthers players in the past, he is showing signs of developing into a star. He may still fall short of that, but he is coming along.

I feel the Luongo comparison is unfair. I am with you on the Luongo issue (reference my previous posts). My biggest beef with Luongo was his claim that he should be paid as the leagues top goaltender. JayBo has made no such claim. Why the hate?

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11-17-2006, 04:21 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
I doubt anyone could label Jay a top 10 defenseman in the league. It could be argued that he is however one of the top 10 YOUNG defensemen in the league, it's a bit more arbitrary of course if you choose say, I don't know, under 25?

But there's too many guys in this league with more experience that will outrank him before he gets near the top 10. I wouldn't worry about that for another 5 to 10 years.
I completely disagree. I think JBow is definately one of the ten best defensement in the league right now. He is so smooth with the puck, he is rock-solid in his own end and he is starting to put up the goals/points other top Dmen get (since late last year). He made the olympic team last year ahead of a lot of other "top" defensemen and it is clear to me his play has improved even more this year.

You can play games with statistics all you want but to suggest MVR or any other of our Dmen are as good or important as JBow is a joke. Once we have a playoff run JBow will be generally accepted as a top-10 Dman, but for now many forget about him. Which ten NHL defensement would you rather have on the team right now (ignoring JBow's age and potential)?

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11-17-2006, 04:31 PM
  #96
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Re: the enforcer thread. My point in that thread was that I do not like fighting in hockey. I still don't. I also said that if the NHL enforced its rules, enforcers would not be necessary. Since they don't, I said, I felt the Panthers needed to add that dimension to their roster. I still hold to that opinion, so don't accuse me of flip-flopping.
I'm not accusing you of flip-flopping. I'm just pointing out that I was in the minority in that topic as well as the Luongo debates but as time goes on, people open their eyes. Right now I'm in the minority with regards to Bouwmeester but for all we know, more and more people will start to take off the rose-colored glasses and open their eyes and change their mind. You said I was losing....all I'm saying is wait and see.

Quote:
I'm not suggesting JayBo for the Norris. Far from it. My point is that he has shown marked improvement, I think primarily from a confidence standpoint, since the start of the season. Unlike many disappointing Panthers players in the past, he is showing signs of developing into a star. He may still fall short of that, but he is coming along.
I never said you suggested Jay for the Norris but others on here have and that's a problem because he's no where close to that. It's that kind of mentality that gives Panthers fans a bad reputation around the league. I don't think he's got star potential...maybe in Florida, but not in the league. He's just too quiet for that and just doesn't seem to be competitive enough to take the spotlight.

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I feel the Luongo comparison is unfair. I am with you on the Luongo issue (reference my previous posts). My biggest beef with Luongo was his claim that he should be paid as the leagues top goaltender. JayBo has made no such claim. Why the hate?
I guess you weren't around or didn't hear about Jay asking for $3 million+ per season after only a year or two in the league? If he was asking for that much then, after only producing subpar numbers....what do you think he'll be asking for if he starts believing the hype surrounding him (especially from Panthers fans, who share blame in Luongo's ego getting bigger and bigger) and continues getting better (not great)? If he was asking for $3 million then, just how much do you think he'll be asking in a couple years especially with people comparing him to the likes of Niedermayer and Pronger? Two guys he is no where near at this point.

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11-17-2006, 04:33 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by wpring View Post
I completely disagree. I think JBow is definately one of the ten best defensement in the league right now. He is so smooth with the puck, he is rock-solid in his own end and he is starting to put up the goals/points other top Dmen get (since late last year). He made the olympic team last year ahead of a lot of other "top" defensemen and it is clear to me his play has improved even more this year.

You can play games with statistics all you want but to suggest MVR or any other of our Dmen are as good or important as JBow is a joke. Once we have a playoff run JBow will be generally accepted as a top-10 Dman, but for now many forget about him. Which ten NHL defensement would you rather have on the team right now (ignoring JBow's age and potential)?
See what I mean?

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11-17-2006, 05:15 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
See what I mean?
sorry, which ten defenseman are better than JBow? Would you rather have MCCabe or Kaberle who can't clear the front of the net? Would you rather have Phaneuf who has not learned to play nearly as well in his own end as JB? Would you rather have Jovo who constantly makes stupid mistakes?

I'll give you Pronger, Lidstrom, Niedermeyer, Chara, Zubov and a couple other guys who I can't think of right now but I doubt you'll find ten.

The fact JBow made the Canadian olympic team suggests he is already in the top group of defense, given that he has stepped it up even more this year, I don't see why he is not in the top ten.

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11-17-2006, 05:31 PM
  #99
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We need to play like this every game. Keep on scoring, goalies need to come up with some big saves, we need to not take a lot of penalties.

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11-17-2006, 06:20 PM
  #100
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I love Bouw as much as anyone else but I think the following are in fact ahead of him (in no particular order):

1. Niklas Lidstrom
2. Chris Pronger
3. Scott Niedermayer
4. Zdeno Chara
5. Wade Redden
6. Robyn Regehr
7. Sergei Zubov
8. Sami Salo
9. Mathieu Schneider
10. Sergei Gonchar

Others can be argued Mattias Ohlund, Andrei Markov, etc.

There's just a lot of established guys out there and Bouw is not quite there yet. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best, but I can still argue the case that there are likely at least 10 defensemen better than him. That said I am glad we drafted him and that he is on this team, I think he's progressed very nicely and just because he was labelled an offensive dman doesn't mean he can't focus on being a good defensive one, which he is becoming nicely. Now I think his offensive game is starting to come to light.

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