HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Florida Panthers
Notices

GDT: 11/16/06 Parlez-vous français? - Canadiens Vs. Panthers

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-17-2006, 07:12 PM
  #101
angry_treefrog
Moderator
T63813A
 
angry_treefrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canary Islands
Posts: 6,437
vCash: 500
Gonchar? I thought you had to play defense to be a defenseman.

angry_treefrog is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 07:12 PM
  #102
Laus723
Future Now
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 26,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpring View Post
I completely disagree. I think JBow is definately one of the ten best defensement in the league right now. He is so smooth with the puck, he is rock-solid in his own end and he is starting to put up the goals/points other top Dmen get (since late last year). He made the olympic team last year ahead of a lot of other "top" defensemen and it is clear to me his play has improved even more this year.

You can play games with statistics all you want but to suggest MVR or any other of our Dmen are as good or important as JBow is a joke. Once we have a playoff run JBow will be generally accepted as a top-10 Dman, but for now many forget about him. Which ten NHL defensement would you rather have on the team right now (ignoring JBow's age and potential)?
I don't think Bouw is in the top ten. Lauser3 and Panthers-Rock both made lists of guys in front of him, which I mostly agree with. I do think he's becoming a much better defenseman and is becoming more responsible, but he hasn't reached the top 10 yet, imo.

I'd take Phanuef over Bouw right now. Phanuef is a big boy and is gaining (if not received already) a reputation for being a one man wrecking crew, and he's done a great job of adjusting to the NHL, so far.

__________________
So you're saying there's a chance!
Laus723 is online now  
Old
11-17-2006, 07:21 PM
  #103
angry_treefrog
Moderator
T63813A
 
angry_treefrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canary Islands
Posts: 6,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
I guess you weren't around or didn't hear about Jay asking for $3 million+ per season after only a year or two in the league? If he was asking for that much then, after only producing subpar numbers....what do you think he'll be asking for if he starts believing the hype surrounding him (especially from Panthers fans, who share blame in Luongo's ego getting bigger and bigger) and continues getting better (not great)? If he was asking for $3 million then, just how much do you think he'll be asking in a couple years especially with people comparing him to the likes of Niedermayer and Pronger? Two guys he is no where near at this point.
So I'm supposed to roast the guy because he asked for a lot of money? It's not the asking thats the problem. It's the theatrics that surround it. Jokinen is a case in point. He eventually signed a contract that benefits both parties. I don't see why JayBo won't do the same. If he doesn't and pulls a Luongo on us, then fine - good riddance. I'll worry about it then.

You may think JayBo will never be a star because he is too quiet. I don't recall that Paul Laus was a fiery leader off the ice. As I recall he led by example. No reason JayBo isn't capable of that.

angry_treefrog is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 07:24 PM
  #104
angry_treefrog
Moderator
T63813A
 
angry_treefrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canary Islands
Posts: 6,437
vCash: 500
Despite my JayBo defense, I agree that he is not a top 10 defenseman right now. In fact, the only things the Panthers have that rank in the top 10 of the NHL are:

1. Excuses for losing
2. Bad marketing decisions
3. Annoying announcers

angry_treefrog is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 07:27 PM
  #105
Laus723
Future Now
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 26,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Despite my JayBo defense, I agree that he is not a top 10 defenseman right now. In fact, the only things the Panthers have that rank in the top 10 of the NHL are:

1. Excuses for losing
2. Bad marketing decisions
3. Annoying announcers
, i don't mind Potvin too much, though. At least "how do ya do?" Rimmer isn't here anymore.

Laus723 is online now  
Old
11-17-2006, 10:26 PM
  #106
PantherBlood6*
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,917
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
I'd take Crosby over Nieuwendyk now, but I would still take Ovechkin over Crosby...but you should be comparing Crosby to a guy closer in age (like Olesz) on this team instead of a guy nearing the end of his career. If Crosby, were in his prime right now...then it'd be a good example, but as it is now, it's pretty "idiotic" don't you think? Nieuwendyk is in his 40s and at the end of his career, while Crosby is at most 20 I think and just starting out. I don't think they are as comparable as say...Bouwmeester (23 years old), Pitkanen (23 years old), or Phaneuf (21/22) would you?
i was being facetious with the analogy, einstein. of course crosby and nieuwendyk aren't even comparable, but it goes to show comparing career numbers mean absolutley nothing when comparing their value in the present. it means zilch.



Quote:
But your excuses for Jay are not laughable? I seem to recall Van Ryn playing on the same teams as Jay and still finding ways to outproduce him while playing less minutes. What's your excuse for that? Afterall, MVR is closer to Jay defensively than Jay is to MVR offensively overall.
really? is that why bouwmeester outscored van ryn last year?

must be.


Quote:
BTW...how come JBouw gets the "producing on a struggling team right now" excuse but Pitkanen doesn't get that luxury, especially when he's still has more points than Jay in less games? Please tell me you've watched Pitkanen play since coming into the league and this season and are not solely just basing your opinion of him on the +/-. By the way, "right now" can change tomorrow, where as the past doesn't...Pitkanen's been better.
i've watched pitkanen plenty enough to know he isn't the most dependable defensman in his own zone. he isn't a total liability, but he isn't nearly as fluid as bouwmeester - it isn't even close.

this year he has been especially shaky. i didn't even know his +/- was -14 until looking it up earlier today, but the way the games have gone it didn't surprise me at all.

Quote:
He's a #1 defenseman on the Florida Panthers; that's it and it doesn't say a whole lot either or have you seen our depth at that position?
yeah...allen, van ryn, salei, mezei. all (should be) top-4 defensman. the only exception could be mezei. whats wrong with that?


Quote:
Pronger and Niedermayer were farther along OFFENSIVELY at age 23 than JBouw is "right now".
Niedermayer's stats as a 23 year old: 1995-96 NJ 79 8 25 33

Prongers stats as a 23 year old: 1997-98 STL 81 9 27 36

niedermayer did have a 46 pt season before that, but regressed the next three years. they were about where bouwmeester is now at that age.



Quote:
How can you not write him off in being a top 10 guy in the league right now when guys like Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Pronger, Blake, Redden, Phaneuf, Ohlund, Chara, McCabe, Kaberle, Zubov, Chelios, Rafalski, Foote, etc...are all still playing and haven't retired yet. That's at least 10 right?
chelios? mccabe? blake? you've got to be kidding me. have you watched how bad mccabe and blake are defensively? chelios is still solid, but no where near top-10. either.

pronger, niedermayer, lidstrom, chara and clearly better defensmen - after that, bouwmeester could go anywhere. you're biased, though, so you don't see it.

if i had to give you my top-10:

pronger
niedermayer
lidstrom
chara
zubov
kaberle
redden (assuming he improves his play...he has been awful this year)
phaneuf
visnovsky
bouwmeester

ohlund would have been in there over jay but he has struggled this year, so i gave the edge to bouwmeester.

PantherBlood6* is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 10:43 PM
  #107
Laus723
Future Now
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 26,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PantherBlood6 View Post
really? is that why bouwmeester outscored van ryn last year?
I think he was talking in terms of goals. Van Ryn had 8, Bouw had 5.
Assists wise, Bouw had 41 for 46 points, and Van Ryn had 29 assists for 37 points.
Van Ryn was +15, Bouw was +1, guess we'll contribute that to Hill.

Laus723 is online now  
Old
11-17-2006, 11:00 PM
  #108
Lauser3*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Miami, Florida
Country: Nicaragua
Posts: 2,397
vCash: 500
Quote:
i was being facetious with the analogy, einstein. of course crosby and nieuwendyk aren't even comparable, but it goes to show comparing career numbers mean absolutley nothing when comparing their value in the present. it means zilch.
Facetious? Sure you were.

Quote:
really? is that why bouwmeester outscored van ryn last year?

must be.
Van Ryn = 8 goals last season. Bouwmeester = 5 goals. How exactly is that outscoring? Overall (with Florida) - Van Ryn = 22 goals in 178 games, while less ice time than Bouwmeester whose got 15 in 247 games as a Panther. Yup, yeah showed me.

Quote:
i've watched pitkanen plenty enough to know he isn't the most dependable defensman in his own zone. he isn't a total liability, but he isn't nearly as fluid as bouwmeester - it isn't even close.
Sure it isn't.

Quote:
this year he has been especially shaky. i didn't even know his +/- was -14 until looking it up earlier today, but the way the games have gone it didn't surprise me at all.
Wait...so Bouw gets a free pass for being on a struggling team but Pitkanen doesn't huh? Yeah, no bias there...none whatsoever.

Quote:
yeah...allen, van ryn, salei, mezei. all (should be) top-4 defensman. the only exception could be mezei. whats wrong with that?
You've seen our record and shots allowed right....after you do, get back to me okay?

Quote:
Niedermayer's stats as a 23 year old: 1995-96 NJ 79 8 25 33
And prior to that season: 25 goals and 106 points. Bouwmeester - 11 goals and 71 points. Yup, I see the similarities all right.

Quote:
Prongers stats as a 23 year old: 1997-98 STL 81 9 27 36
And prior to that season: 28 goals and 104 points. Bouwmeester? Yup, definitely in the same level all right.

Quote:
niedermayer did have a 46 pt season before that, but regressed the next three years. they were about where bouwmeester is now at that age.
Sure, behind rose-colored glasses.

Quote:
chelios?
Is he retired? So he's not a good defenseman and isn't more proven than JBouw?

Quote:
mccabe?
Yeah, Bryan McCabe...a former fighter who plays more minutes than Bouwmeester and despite expected to be a in the defensive defenseman type mold has found a way to score and score a lot more than your dear JBouw.

Quote:
blake? you've got to be kidding me.
So that Norris Trophy with his name on it was a joke?

Quote:
have you watched how bad mccabe and blake are defensively? chelios is still solid, but no where near top-10. either.
Have you? Or are you just going with what people post on the main board?

Quote:
pronger, niedermayer, lidstrom, chara and clearly better defensmen - after that, bouwmeester could go anywhere. you're biased, though, so you don't see it.
Yes, because as a Panther fan yourself...there's no bias there right?

Quote:
if i had to give you my top-10:

pronger
niedermayer
lidstrom
chara
zubov
kaberle
redden (assuming he improves his play...he has been awful this year)
phaneuf
visnovsky
bouwmeester
So Kaberle is better than JBouw but McCabe, Chelios, Blake, Ohlund, Pitkanen, Foote are not? Wow, definitely no bias on your part there I'm sure.


Quote:
ohlund would have been in there over jay but he has struggled this year, so i gave the edge to bouwmeester.
A shocker really.


Last edited by ratmanfu: 11-18-2006 at 06:43 AM. Reason: flaming
Lauser3* is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 11:18 PM
  #109
PantherBlood6*
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,917
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauser3 View Post
Facetious? Sure you were.

yes, i was.

nice response, though.



Quote:
Van Ryn = 8 goals last season. Bouwmeester = 5 goals. How exactly is that outscoring? Overall (with Florida) - Van Ryn = 22 goals in 178 games, while less ice time than Bouwmeester whose got 15 in 247 games as a Panther. Yup, yeah showed me.
so outscoring is only goals now? what world do you live in? whenever i have heard that term, it's reffering to points in total and not just goals.

anyway, van ryn has one goal this season, bouwmeester has four. bouwmeester is a +6 and van ryn is a -2. none of this matters as bouwmeester is clearly the better defensman.







Quote:
Sure it isn't.



Quote:
Wait...so Bouw gets a free pass for being on a struggling team but Pitkanen doesn't huh? Yeah, no bias there...none whatsoever.
philly had good teams last year and the one before and he wasn't particularly good defensively then either.

i love how you edited that part out of my original post. if you're going to respond, respond to the entire post and don't edit out parts that hurt your argument.



Quote:
You've seen our record and shots allowed right....after you do, get back to me okay?
we're about right smack in the middle in shots against. your point?

are all your arguments reliant on pointless statistics? do you even watch any of the games?



Quote:
And prior to that season: 25 goals and 106 points. Bouwmeester - 11 goals and 71 points. Yup, I see the similarities all right.
ahhhh, here we go again. career stats?




Quote:
And prior to that season: 28 goals and 104 points. Bouwmeester? Yup, definitely in the same level all right. :biglaugh
:


::sigh:::





Quote:
Is he retired? So he's not a good defenseman and isn't more proven than JBouw?
read much? did you not see where i said "he is still solid?"

he is still a good defensman, and "more proven", whatever that proves. he isn't better right now though.

got it?



Quote:
Yeah, Bryan McCabe...a former fighter who plays more minutes than Bouwmeester and despite expected to be a in the defensive defenseman type mold has found a way to score and score a lot more than your dear JBouw.
....and is a total nightmare defensively. he's a better offensive player, he's a more physical player. he's not a better defensman.

got it?


Quote:
So that Norris Trophy with his name on it was a joke?
no, but he's lost some speed and is not half of the defensman he used to be. if you wanted to put a defensman over bouwmeester from LA, it would be visnovsky.

of course you knew that though.....



Quote:
Have you? Or are you just going with what people post on the main board?
answering a question with a question? nice way to avoid it so you don't have to admit you haven't. not that i really needed you to answer it, but it's funny anyway.







Quote:
So Kaberle is better than JBouw but McCabe, Chelios, Blake, Ohlund, Pitkanen, Foote are not? Wow, definitely no bias on your part there I'm sure.
yes.


Last edited by ratmanfu: 11-18-2006 at 06:43 AM. Reason: flaming
PantherBlood6* is offline  
Old
11-17-2006, 11:21 PM
  #110
angry_treefrog
Moderator
T63813A
 
angry_treefrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canary Islands
Posts: 6,437
vCash: 500
Ibl

angry_treefrog is offline  
Old
11-18-2006, 06:48 AM
  #111
ratmanfu
Registered User
 
ratmanfu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hendersonville, NC
Country: Spain
Posts: 8,395
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to ratmanfu
Well, I've had enough of this.

We've had plenty of edits on this thread already.

If you can't debate without questioning the other poster's intelligence, then you can take it to PM with each other.

ratmanfu is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.