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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Mark Messier vs Bobby Clarke

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Old
11-17-2006, 09:22 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Sather View Post
Clarke was regarded as something of a plodding skater. Messier was quite a good skater up to around 36 years old.
Clarke was not a plodding skater. He wasn't graceful, but he wasn't ever beat to a loose puck.

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Old
11-17-2006, 11:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BBB-King of Donair View Post
Really? Maybe it's the bias of an Oilers fan, but I always found trottier really unlikeable, and he pissed a lot of people off when he played for the US in the Canada Cup that time. (that didn't bother me, but it didn't endear him to the masses)
Hate trottier,you beat me to this.

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Old
11-17-2006, 11:27 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Hate trottier,you beat me to this.
Coming from an NYR fanlike yourself, that's the supreme compliment. After all, you witnessed him helping destroy your squad nearly every single spring.

Oddly, he never merited a chant at MSG. That's only reserved for HOFers like Potvin and Mario and future HOFers like Brodeur. Lovable yet strange brew, that NY crowd, aiming long-term vocal derision at some of the greatest who ever played the game.

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Old
11-17-2006, 11:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by murray View Post
I knew you Love fergie but all non CH people hate him. The guy was an animal.

Good idea for a thread: Who I would like to have a beer with. My choice:

Bobby Hull
Gordie howe
Rocket
Bentley Bothers
Conacher Family
Ed Litzenberger
Howie Morenz
Mario
Ted Lindsay
etc
Mine would be Red Storey...I could listen to him all night

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Old
11-18-2006, 12:53 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BBB-King of Donair View Post
Here's some guys I'd like to have a beer with:

Kelly Buchberger
Johnny Bower
Gordie Howe
rick Chartraw
Clark Gillies
Glen anderson (hopefully on his home planet)
Brad Marsh
No Danny Markov? For shame.

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Old
11-18-2006, 12:54 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by murray View Post
I knew you Love fergie but all non CH people hate him. The guy was an animal.

Good idea for a thread: Who I would like to have a beer with. My choice:

Bobby Hull
Gordie howe
Rocket
Bentley Bothers
Conacher Family
Ed Litzenberger
Howie Morenz
Mario
Ted Lindsay
etc
I've had the chance to speak with Eddie Shack (twice) and Gerry Cheevers over a sip. Shack is everything you'd expect him to be. Of course, he was inebriated when I talked to him, but it wouldn't be an interview with Eddie if he hadn't had a few. Of course, it's still wildly entertaining.

I'd love to have one with Phil Esposito. Espo's one of the great characters in the history of the game, and a pretty good actor, judging by his performances as Chief Izzy on Rescue Me. murray, you mentioned Bobby Hull, and Bobby would be great. But as far as a sheer conversation, Bobby's brother Dennis would be fantastic. One of the greatest characters in hockey history.

There's the obvious ones: Gretzky, Orr, Gordie. Trevor Linden's my all-time favourite player, so he'd be at the top of the list. So would Cam Neely. Of course, I'd love to have a couple with Cherry.

murray, I'm sure that my great grandma had a brewsky with the Bentley's at some point.

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Old
11-18-2006, 02:57 AM
  #32
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If I could have a beer with any player, it'd be Jean Beliveau without question. Bobby Orr would be second and Ted Lindsay would be third. As for players from 'my generation', Yzerman and Sakic would have to be at the top of my list.

As for the original question, I'd take Clarke personally.

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Old
11-18-2006, 03:09 AM
  #33
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I'd wanna have a few beers with Patrick Roy and keep on mentioning how Brodeur is creeping up on his records and how many Vezina's Hasek won and see if things start getting broken.

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Old
11-18-2006, 07:19 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I guess every big name player has a fair amount of detractors.

Except Beliveau.
Or Yzerman

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Old
11-18-2006, 02:27 PM
  #35
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Clarke - 15 seasons, 1210 pts.........80.6 pts. per yr. average

Messier - 25 seasons, 1887 pts.......75.4 pts. per yr. average




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Old
11-18-2006, 02:34 PM
  #36
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Look at points per game.
Clarke - 1.0577
Messier - 1.0746

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Old
11-18-2006, 02:49 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Coming from an NYR fanlike yourself, that's the supreme compliment. After all, you witnessed him helping destroy your squad nearly every single spring.

Oddly, he never merited a chant at MSG. That's only reserved for HOFers like Potvin and Mario and future HOFers like Brodeur. Lovable yet strange brew, that NY crowd, aiming long-term vocal derision at some of the greatest who ever played the game.
It may indeed be the ultimate compliment but i'm not sure what would give you the idea that i'm a rags fan................i cheer for the habs and don't give a lick what happens to the rangers as long as they lose to Montreal when they play them.
I've heard they even used to get the "Potvin sucks" chant going at the baseball games there

That is quite the compliment for sure.

Trots and Potvin were both great players for sure,i just can't stand Trottier for his switching nationalities stuff.You can do a million good things and they can all get cancelled out by one bad thing.And in Trot's case.........they don't come much worse for me then doing something like that.

But that's just me

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Old
11-18-2006, 03:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
It may indeed be the ultimate compliment but i'm not sure what would give you the idea that i'm a rags fan................i cheer for the habs and don't give a lick what happens to the rangers as long as they lose to Montreal when they play them.
I've heard they even used to get the "Potvin sucks" chant going at the baseball games there

That is quite the compliment for sure.

Trots and Potvin were both great players for sure,i just can't stand Trottier for his switching nationalities stuff.You can do a million good things and they can all get cancelled out by one bad thing.And in Trot's case.........they don't come much worse for me then doing something like that.

But that's just me
My error. Thought for sure you were an NYR fan; it's sometimes hard to keep track on this board.

I remember Trottier's switching nationalities, circa 1984. It is interesting (and I mean that in the most sincere way) how that rubs some the wrong way, even all these years later. Not judging your feelings, just cannot relate to them, and it has nothing to do with my fondness for #19, the player. But allegiance to country runs very deep among many and I respect that sentiment.

Actually, I thought the ill will would be based more on his style of play. Though Clarke retains the reputation (deservedly) for being a chippy/dirty player (once saw him literally insert his stick blade from behind into the mouth of a Devils dman, Tapio Levo; looked like a fish on the hook), Trottier was no angel either, not by a longshot.

I frankly think a Messier/Trottier comparison is more relevant than a Messier/Clarke one. For Trottier was ultimately the superior player to Clarke, without question, IMO. (And Clarke was a great player in his own right.)

Regardless, the league can always do with players the ilk of Messier, Clarke and Trottier. Skilled and nasty. Especially in this day and age of ultra-sensitive officiating (and in some cases, a new breed of ultra-soft fans, who seemingly question any and all contact). It's why I love the likes of Forsberg and Crosby - world-class skill combined with the desire to take your heart out on the ice.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-18-2006 at 03:13 PM.
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Old
11-18-2006, 03:41 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
My error. Thought for sure you were an NYR fan; it's sometimes hard to keep track on this board.

I remember Trottier's switching nationalities, circa 1984. It is interesting (and I mean that in the most sincere way) how that rubs some the wrong way, even all these years later. Not judging your feelings, just cannot relate to them, and it has nothing to do with my fondness for #19, the player. But allegiance to country runs very deep among many and I respect that sentiment.

Actually, I thought the ill will would be based more on his style of play. Though Clarke retains the reputation (deservedly) for being a chippy/dirty player (once saw him literally insert his stick blade from behind into the mouth of a Devils dman, Tapio Levo; looked like a fish on the hook), Trottier was no angel either, not by a longshot.

I frankly think a Messier/Trottier comparison is more relevant than a Messier/Clarke one. For Trottier was ultimately the superior player to Clarke, without question, IMO. (And Clarke was a great player in his own right.)

Regardless, the league can always do with players the ilk of Messier, Clarke and Trottier. Skilled and nasty. Especially in this day and age of ultra-sensitive officiating (and in some cases, a new breed of ultra-soft fans, who seemingly question any and all contact). It's why I love the likes of Forsberg and Crosby - world-class skill combined with the desire to take your heart out on the ice.
I had nothing really against Trottier until he pulled the old switcherheroo of national team jerseys.You're right,that does'nt bother some people and other folks it rubs the wrong way,i'm in the "rubs the wrong" way camp and big time.

It's a shame with Trots really because i'm like you..........i love players that play like Trottier.Mess,Clarke,Trots.......I enjoy skilled and nasty probably above all,guys that have that real competitive streak but can still play a sweet game.That's not to say i can't hate them at the same time when they are pulling their business on the teams i root for but i always respect and enjoy the way they play(or at least i mostly always respect the way they play) Those guys can sometimes go way over the line and when it stings a team you root for you can get a hate on for them pretty badly and i'm no exception.But at the end of the day i always seem to find myself smiling at the way they play the game.Sometimes it does'nt happen until they are retired but usually it happens right away.

I'm a sucker for players that combine some grit/nastyness/skill.I probably always will be.I agree with you,the game is becoming too softened down for my liking to appease soft fans.Each to his own i guess but i miss that type of hockey terribly.


Loved Trottiers game..................but hate him for his convenient loyalty change.

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Old
11-18-2006, 04:32 PM
  #40
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Clarke was not a plodding skater. He wasn't graceful, but he wasn't ever beat to a loose puck.
Clarke skated like Brindamour,with short,quick strides.

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Old
11-18-2006, 04:42 PM
  #41
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Messier by a long shot. Greatest leader of all sports (arguably) and what had the 3rd most points in all NHL history? Not to mention is work ethic as well.
2nd of all time in points. He passed Howe against the Stars in November of 04 in a 3-0 Shutout.

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I can't remember even seeing Clarke play, but I feel pretty fortunate to have seen alot of Messier and he gets my vote.

I think Messier intimidated more, both with his play and his stick and was probably more talented. Strong skater, strong on the puck and a pretty decent shot. Messier blazing down the right wing and letting go a quick wrist shot off his wrong foot was just a thing of beauty. The goalies were expecting it but he scored many like that anyways.
I imitate Messier all the time with that off-wing wrister. I absolutely love it. The sound of the puck hitting off the back-bar is one of the sweetest sounds in the world.

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I don't see how either one gets a real edge work ethic wise, Messier obviously stayed in great shape throughout his career and that lead to his longevity, he always played hard and stepped up. Clarke though has the distinction of being the first successful diabetic pro athlete. That is nothing to sneeze at and takes alot of commitment and work to simply be able to play.
I respect Clarke for being a diabetic, as my aunt and two of my cousins are diabetics. I do think there are other cases of illness that are worse... Mario coming back from Hodgkinson's is one of I think of off the top of my head.

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One argument for Clarke. Bobby Orr only played one complete season, 74-75, that year he won the Art Ross, Bobby Clarke won MVP. There are only a handful of players that have won MVP 3 times or more, Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Clarke, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Even if you count Clarke as the worst of the bunch, that is elite company. And, he won against names like Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and Guy Lafluer, hardly players to sneeze at.
So he won an MVP over the league's top scorer... Messier did that in 90 and 92, Gretzky leading scoring in 90, and Lemieux leading in 92. The league's top scorer isn't always necessarily the league's most valuable player.

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Messier on the other hand, has the distinction of captaining two different teams to the Stanley cup, winning 6 in total. Two time MVP against very tough competition from Gretzky and Lemieux. And has a long career that's given him a large edge in total points.
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.

I was going to mention him winning over Gretzky and Lemieux, but you did above. As for his career... if Messier would have retired when he left NY the first time around, he'd STILL lead Clarke in goals (575), assists (977), points (1,552), and cups. 1272 games is the amount he would have stopped at, and it only would have been 128 games more... not even 2 full seasons. If you ask me, I think for Messier's sake, he'd be considered just as highly if he stopped after his last season in NY.

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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Great question, nalyd. raleh made a great point. You have the consensus top three centres in NHL history: Gretzky, Lemieux and Beliveau. Then you have the next six - Clarke, Messier, Trottier, Mikita, Esposito and Morenz. Outside of Morenz and Espo, they're known for their grit and physical play along with their skill.

I'll go with Clarke, but I don't blame anybody for choosing Messier. I loved watching both play - despite their penchant for cheap shots - although both have had their iffy off-ice moments. (Especially Clarke as a GM). But I respect both. I'm not a Messier fan in the least, but he definitely earned my respect.

I would say that Messier was the better goal scorer, but Clarke was the better playmaker. They were both outstanding in the playoffs. Messier won more Cups, but keep in mind that Messier was on the dynasty while Clarke ran into the dynasty. They were both very physical. Messier was more likely to plough into an opponent, but Clarke was no spring chicken in that regard, and Kharlamov wasn't the only victim of Bobby's stick.

Clarke was definitely the better defensive player. He won a Selke and probably would have won more if it existed before 1977. And as much as we've all heard about Messier's leadership ability, Clarke was the better leader. Clarke might be the best leader of all-time outside of Jean Beliveau.
Messier captained two different franchises to Stanley Cups. Clarke only did it with one. Messier won 6 cups, and a Conn Smythe. Bobby Clarke NEVER won a Conn Smythe.

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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
How many other top scorers in the 70s and 80s were also their teams top penalty killer and expected to shut down the opponents top line? There`s lots of negative things to say about Clarke the person, but Clarke the player was something special. I know there`s not much respect here for +/- stats, but Clarke`s numbers in the mid-70s were almost Orr-like. Teams simply didn`t score on the Flyers when Clarke was on the ice.

A reference was made earlier to Clarke`s plodding skating. One of the remarkable things about him was that he didn`t look like a gifted player, but he was the epitome of hard work and determination.

That`s not say he`s better than Messier. It`s a very, very close call. With Messier, unfortunately fans are a little harsh due to his final years being rather mediocre. But most players careers don`t last until their 40s, so it`s not a fair comparison. He should be judged on how great he was in his prime.
That right there is just ridiculous. No one's numbers are "Bobby Orr" like except for Paul Coffey. I think you're far off on that assessment.

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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Coming from an NYR fanlike yourself, that's the supreme compliment. After all, you witnessed him helping destroy your squad nearly every single spring.

Oddly, he never merited a chant at MSG. That's only reserved for HOFers like Potvin and Mario and future HOFers like Brodeur. Lovable yet strange brew, that NY crowd, aiming long-term vocal derision at some of the greatest who ever played the game.
You mean Mike Bossy? Yeah, Mike Bossy did destroy us, and then when his back went down, so did the Islanders franchise.

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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Look at points per game.
Clarke - 1.0577
Messier - 1.0746
If Messier would have stopped at the age of 36, the same age Clarke stopped at, I believe... Messier's ppg number would be A LOT higher, 1.22 to be exact.

Bottom Line: Let me reiterate that I respect Bobby Clarke, his hard-nosed and dirty play is the kind of play that I like to see sometimes. You have to have love and respect for those lunch pailers. But Messier was far more skilled, and you can argue Clarke's Selke as him being better defensively, but Messier was a guy that could shut down an opposition's top center. Ask Trottier about playing against Messier in the 84 SCF.

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Old
11-18-2006, 06:39 PM
  #42
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Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
Singlehandedly my ***.

In 1984, while he was the best player during the Finals, Gretzky was the best player during the entire playoff run.

In 1990, Ranford was a complete stud and deserving Conn Smythe winner .... Tikkanen was the 2nd best Oiler .. and Kurri, Simpson and Anderson all also had monster playoffs.

In 1994, Brian Leetch was far and away the best player during the Rangers playoff run.


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Messier captained two different franchises to Stanley Cups. Clarke only did it with one. Messier won 6 cups, and a Conn Smythe. Bobby Clarke NEVER won a Conn Smythe.
Brilliant statement above, trying to knock a guy for playing on one team his entire career. As to the 6 Cups to two ... that plays to the surrounding talent.


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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
But Messier was far more skilled, and you can argue Clarke's Selke as him being better defensively, but Messier was a guy that could shut down an opposition's top center. Ask Trottier about playing against Messier in the 84 SCF.
Don't embarass yourself by trying to remotely compare the defensive games of the two players. Messier was never in the same universe as Clarke defensively.

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Old
11-18-2006, 09:56 PM
  #43
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You mean Mike Bossy? Yeah, Mike Bossy did destroy us, and then when his back went down, so did the Islanders franchise.

Yep, that dynasty team was a one trick pony, based on one player. Perpetrate that myth, if it makes you feel better. Your revisonist history aside, at least those NYI teams had something to come "down" from.

Ask Trottier about playing against Messier in the 84 SCF.

Fine. As long as you ask Messier and Gretzky about playing against Trottier, circa 1981-83. Or, for that matter, ask Messier, circa spring '92, as his team succumbed to the Pens and he was contained by a then-veteran checking center who wore #19. Selective memory is a wonderful thing though, no?


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11-18-2006, 10:04 PM
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11-18-2006, 10:47 PM
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Easily Mess. The numbers alone speak for themselves.

I can't see how anyone could possibly take Bobby Clarke over Mess. I have an absolute ton of respect for Clarke (even if I dislike him as a person).

I just cannot fathom how one would take Bobby Clarke over Messier in any way, shape, or form.

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11-18-2006, 10:48 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Fine. As long as you ask Messier and Gretzky about playing against Trottier, circa 1981-83. Or, for that matter, ask Messier, circa spring '92, as his team succumbed to the Pens and he was contained by a then-veteran checking center who wore #19. Selective memory is a wonderful thing though, no?
If his profile is accurate, he was born in November of 1985, meaning he never saw a game that Clarke played ... and doesn't remember a game that Trottier played or even Messier in an Oilers jersey.

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11-18-2006, 11:03 PM
  #47
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That right there is just ridiculous. No one's numbers are "Bobby Orr" like except for Paul Coffey. I think you're far off on that assessment.
When I said Clarke`s numbers were Orr-like, it was a specific reference to his +/- numbers being as dominant among forwards as Orr`s were among defencemen. For example:

`75 Clarke- ESGF- 98; ESGA- 19; = +79

That`s a ratio of over 5:1. You can argue about the worthiness of the +/- stat, but it doesn`t change the fact no other forward (to my knowledge) has ever come close to equalling that, just like no other defenceman has matched Orr`s marks.

I wasn`t trying to say that Clarke was as good a player as Orr. That would be almost as ridiculous as saying Jagr was better than Orr.


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Originally Posted by cyclops
Loved Trottiers game..................but hate him for his convenient loyalty change.
I`m a Canadian who had no problem with Trottier suiting up for the U.S.A. team. He had dual citizenship, and if he felt like representing the country he`d been earning a living in, then that`s his decision and should be respected.

Should Czech fans hate Peter Stastny for playing for Canada?


Last edited by reckoning: 11-18-2006 at 11:11 PM.
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Old
11-18-2006, 11:48 PM
  #48
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Easily Mess. The numbers alone speak for themselves.

I can't see how anyone could possibly take Bobby Clarke over Mess. I have an absolute ton of respect for Clarke (even if I dislike him as a person).

I just cannot fathom how one would take Bobby Clarke over Messier in any way, shape, or form.
Except you don't use numbers to evaluate Messier and Clarke's respective games. And in terms of single-season numbers, Messier's career high is better than Clarke's career high, but Clarke's second-best offensive season is better than Messier's second-best. So "the numbers" aren't as lopsided as you might think. If Clarke had played as many games as Messier, the career points would be much closer.

Messier was a better goal scorer. Clarke was the better play-maker. I'm not going to toss around "Messier played with better player arguments," nor I am going to toss around some mumbo-jumbo about weighting for era.

Messier was bigger and stronger, a little more physical, but Clarke was no shrinking violet. He'd give an opposing player a vicious stick shot without thinking twice. (Not that Messier was immune from cheap shots, either).

Clarke was much better defensively. You can question the relevance of plus-minus all you want (I personally question the relevance of all stats, to a certain extent, and I believe that you have to take a closer look beyond all stats), but there's something to be said for the fact that Clarke was a plus player every year of his career.

As good of a leader as Messier is, Clarke was better. The only leader who stands out as being better than Clarke is Jean Beliveau. And outside of Maurice Richard, I can't think of another all-time great with more relentlessness, tenacity or fervor, than Bobby Clarke.

When trying to decide who's better, the first question I always ask myself is: "If I'm in a Game 7 situation, who do I want more." And there isn't an obvious answer to this one. You could go with Clarke because you know he would dominate in every role asked of him. Or you could pick Messier because of his multi-purpose abilities at centre or left wing.

Anyone who thinks there's an obvious answer to this question is one of the following: a) biased; b) carrying a grudge; or c) ignorant and in serious need of research.

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11-19-2006, 02:33 AM
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Nalyd Psycho
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I respect Clarke for being a diabetic, as my aunt and two of my cousins are diabetics. I do think there are other cases of illness that are worse... Mario coming back from Hodgkinson's is one of I think of off the top of my head.
No doubt about it players have come back from worse. Messier hasn't. Being a diabetic and being a successful person, common, being a diabetic and being a dominant athlete, correct me if I'm wrong, Clarke is the only one. (Any Adam Morrison fans out there, yeah he looks like a rookie of the year favourite, but he's still a long way from dominance.) It is a great example of Clarke's determination to succeed.

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So he won an MVP over the league's top scorer... Messier did that in 90 and 92, Gretzky leading scoring in 90, and Lemieux leading in 92. The league's top scorer isn't always necessarily the league's most valuable player.
Orr isn't just the leading scorer, he's a freaking defenceman who is the leading scorer. Think about that, a defenceman leads the league in scoring and doesn't win MVP? Arguably the best player in history plays his only complete season of his career, and he doesn't win MVP. That's a pretty huge accomplishment on Clarke's part.

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Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
Seeing as the '94 playoffs are the defining moment of my hockey fan life, I can say you're flat out wrong. Was he the Ranger's best forward? By a mile, but it was the strength of six arms that lifted that Cup, Messier, Leetch and Richter.

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11-19-2006, 02:45 AM
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No doubt about it players have come back from worse. Messier hasn't. Being a diabetic and being a successful person, common, being a diabetic and being a dominant athlete, correct me if I'm wrong, Clarke is the only one. (Any Adam Morrison fans out there, yeah he looks like a rookie of the year favourite, but he's still a long way from dominance.) It is a great example of Clarke's determination to succeed.



Orr isn't just the leading scorer, he's a freaking defenceman who is the leading scorer. Think about that, a defenceman leads the league in scoring and doesn't win MVP? Arguably the best player in history plays his only complete season of his career, and he doesn't win MVP. That's a pretty huge accomplishment on Clarke's part.



Seeing as the '94 playoffs are the defining moment of my hockey fan life, I can say you're flat out wrong. Was he the Ranger's best forward? By a mile, but it was the strength of six arms that lifted that Cup, Messier, Leetch and Richter.
Adam Morrison????

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