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Mark Messier vs Bobby Clarke

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Old
11-19-2006, 02:48 AM
  #51
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Adam Morrison????
Leading scorer amongst NBA rookies. He's diabetic, but still a top young gun.

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11-19-2006, 02:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Leading scorer amongst NBA rookies. He's diabetic, but still a top young gun.

Ahhh. Thank you.

I don't really follow basketball much and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what NHL team had an Adam Morrison.

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11-19-2006, 02:50 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Ahhh. Thank you.

I don't really follow basketball much and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what NHL team had an Adam Morrison.
No worries, I'm just covering my bases with how many here label players future Hall of Famers due to a good first month.

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Old
11-19-2006, 03:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
Are you kidding me? The '84 Oilers were one of the best teams of all time, and you think he won it "NEARLY" single handedly? The '90's OIlers were a great team and so were the '94 Rags, Leetch and Richter were so good that year.

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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
As for his career... if Messier would have retired when he left NY the first time around, he'd STILL lead Clarke in goals (575), assists (977), points (1,552), and cups. 1272 games is the amount he would have stopped at, and it only would have been 128 games more... not even 2 full seasons. If you ask me, I think for Messier's sake, he'd be considered just as highly if he stopped after his last season in NY.
Give me a break, Messier played in the highest scoring era of all time. Pierre Turgeon outscored Clarke, by your logic, he is better too.

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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Messier captained two different franchises to Stanley Cups. Clarke only did it with one. Messier won 6 cups, and a Conn Smythe. Bobby Clarke NEVER won a Conn Smythe.
So, Clarke is being penalized because he played on one team during his career? Isn't that a good thing?

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Old
11-19-2006, 04:24 AM
  #55
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I'll be honest, I'm too young to have ever seen Clarke play. I'll just say that I love Messier for being able to go from "mean like a grizzly bear, did a bunch of coke during intermission" Messier to "mean like a grizzly bear, respect me because I'm older than you" Messier. He meant a lot to the Oilers, but did he ever lift the entire team by their bootstraps like he did with the Rangers in '94?

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Old
11-19-2006, 06:35 AM
  #56
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I`m a Canadian who had no problem with Trottier suiting up for the U.S.A. team. He had dual citizenship, and if he felt like representing the country he`d been earning a living in, then that`s his decision and should be respected.

Should Czech fans hate Peter Stastny for playing for Canada?[/QUOTE]


I don't know if they should be upset or not,that's up to each individual Czech fan to decide.

All i can speak for is myself.Some Canadian fans did'nt hate him for what he did and some did.I'm one of those who did.

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Old
07-24-2013, 02:09 AM
  #57
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After Bobby Orr; Bobby Clarke & Bryan Trottier may be my favorite players.

Comparing Clarke and Messier, I think that Clarke was a better defensive player and a far better in the face-off circle (an ability that I think is overlooked), while Messier was better on offense and physically stronger and faster.

I love what Clarke (and Trottier) brought to the ice on both offense and defense, a very rare breed, indeed. Simply talented, tenacious and tireless from end to end like no one I've seen before or since. I tried to play the game like them.

My only knock on Messier is that he should have hung up the skates after 18 seasons (1996/97). His stint in Vancouver and second stint in New York had a negative impact on his leadership and therefore his legacy IMO.

In the end, I'd take Clarke and Trottier over Messier (or Forsberg).


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Old
07-24-2013, 03:07 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
So he won an MVP over the league's top scorer... Messier did that in 90 and 92, Gretzky leading scoring in 90, and Lemieux leading in 92. The league's top scorer isn't always necessarily the league's most valuable player.
In 1992, Lemieux missed 16 games. Like missing the playoffs, missing games costs you votes for awards. IMHO, Lemieux should have received the Hart over Messier.

In 1990, Messier was leading an Edmonton team that had a still highly thought of center in Jimmy Carson walk out on them, and he was leading them to a strong season. Outside of Gretzky and Bourque, his most legitimate challenger for the Hart was Yzerman - who missed the playoffs and was "ineligible" for the award.

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Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
Gretzky was good, but Messier was on fire.

Top 5 playoff scoring, 1983-84
Gretzky 19 games, 13-22-35
Kurri 19 games, 14-14-28
Messier 19 games, 8-18-26
Coffey 19 games, 8-14-22
Gillies 21 games, 12-7-19

Man, such a single-handed Cup win!

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I was going to mention him winning over Gretzky and Lemieux
The 1990 Hart can't realistically be considered "over Lemieux"; Lemieux missed almost the entire season injured.

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You mean Mike Bossy? Yeah, Mike Bossy did destroy us, and then when his back went down, so did the Islanders franchise.
You should perhaps take another look at Trottier's career.

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Old
07-24-2013, 06:18 AM
  #59
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they're equals in almost everything but mess could absolutely FLY for about the first half of his career....clarke didn't have that next level speed. that gives mess the edge in my eyes.

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Old
07-24-2013, 08:31 AM
  #60
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This is a good one. Both were complete, nasty and skilled. Great leaders. I think Messier had more raw talent but Clarke had even more intangibles than Messier...... and Messier oozed them. I'd take Clarke by a hair. A relative of mine worked for the Flyers in the 70s through the late-80s and once told me a couple stories about Clarke......

One day after an off-day practice, Clarke summoned everyone to the Flyers favorite ale house for a players meeting, which he ran. The Flyers were in a slump and Clarke challenged his teammates to find answers. He stood up and said, "What is the problem here?..... if anyone has issues, speak up right now." One of the players manned up and admitted that they felt underpaid and that they got a raw deal on their contract and it was bothering them at night. Clarke listened. The next day Clarke gave the guy a personal check for a very healthy amount, telling him that he understood how he felt and with some extra cash, he could now stop worrying and focus on the team.

Also, when Clarke used to arrive at special autograph signings for business promotions, he would take the few extra hundred bucks that he would get and spread it out among the Flyers staff who worked behind the scenes. He wanted every member of the organization to feel part of something..... down to the office manager or assistant equipment guy.

There was also talk of Freddie Shero once telling Clarke that he couldn't control Schultz, Kelly and Saleski once they snapped. He asked Bobby to relay the message. They listened to Clarke. They were loyal to him like Soldiers to a General.

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Old
07-24-2013, 08:49 AM
  #61
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I thoroughly hate them both and am glad the league doesn't tolerate dirty play anymore, essentially eliminating their kind. That said, Messier is also one of the most overhyped players in history. People say he lifted teams to the Cup, I say he destroyed teams in his final 8 years, during which Canucks and NYR failed to make playoffs despite all-world roster.

So to me it's Trottier > Clarke > Mess.

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Old
07-24-2013, 09:10 AM
  #62
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Bobby Clarke was my favorite player growing up, outside of that ugly ankle breaking incident, loved his desire and determination.

That being said his stats are really weak for a top 20ish guy of all time. He played in a really diluted league and only really had elite stats when he was the set up guy for Reggie "the rifle" Leach.

Moose is sometimes overrated as well, he played for a very long time but his ego also hurt his legacy in Vancouver and his final seasons in New York were hardly productive.

As a career guy I'm inclined to take Moose over Clarke but would take Trotts over both of them and Forsberg as well.

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07-24-2013, 09:12 AM
  #63
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My last 2 1st round picks in the ATD, I went with Bobby Clarke on this 1.

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Old
07-24-2013, 09:24 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Clarke though has the distinction of being the first successful diabetic pro athlete. That is nothing to sneeze at and takes alot of commitment and work to simply be able to play.
This is true but he shouldn't get any extra credit for it either IMO.


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One argument for Clarke. Bobby Orr only played one complete season, 74-75, that year he won the Art Ross, Bobby Clarke won MVP. There are only a handful of players that have won MVP 3 times or more, Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Clarke, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Even if you count Clarke as the worst of the bunch, that is elite company. And, he won against names like Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and Guy Lafluer, hardly players to sneeze at.
The Hart argument is rather weak though IMO, the voting looks very erratic and it's a Canadian only league as well. He should get credit for being in the mix for the Hart but the 3 time hart winner really eneds an asterik beside it.

Go back and look at the voting, Espo wins one year and isn't in top 10 voting in the next, Orr was the perennial front runner, did they get tired giving it to him?

Even in 73, when Clarke wins his 1st Hart, he only outscores Orr by 3 points and the flyers are only 8th overall in the NHL.

I loved Clarke as a player but the Hart counting really exaggerates his place on the all time list in this section IMO.

Quote:
Messier on the other hand, has the distinction of captaining two different teams to the Stanley cup, winning 6 in total. Two time MVP against very tough competition from Gretzky and Lemieux. And has a long career that's given him a large edge in total points.
His career does look more impressive, although Wayne really was the man with the Oilers, that's probably why Moose has a hard time crackign top 25 on alot of lists.

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Old
07-24-2013, 09:55 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
As a career guy I'm inclined to take Moose over Clarke but would take Trotts over both of them and Forsberg as well.
I'd take Forsberg over both as well. I don't know if I can count on two hands how many players I would take over Forsberg assuming everyone is at their absolute best.....

4
99
66
Gordie
Rocket
Robinson
Lindros
Shore
Potvin

Forsberg was one of the most dominating players of all-time IMO if judging by peak.

I still have PEAK Forsberg over....

Beliveau
Lafleur
Coffey
Lidstrom
Morenz
Hull(s)
Trottier
Messier
Clarke
Bossy
Crosby
Yzerman
Sakic
Ovechkin
Bourque
etc.

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07-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I thoroughly hate them both and am glad the league doesn't tolerate dirty play anymore, essentially eliminating their kind. That said, Messier is also one of the most overhyped players in history. People say he lifted teams to the Cup, I say he destroyed teams in his final 8 years, during which Canucks and NYR failed to make playoffs despite all-world roster.
Messier definitely does get overhyped but to balance that he has many haters that try to detract from his legacy with clearly false statements.

Vancouver was a team that had been on the decline prior to signing Messier, the team was blown up and rebuilt and started it's rise in Messier's final year with the Canucks.

The Rangers missed the playoffs all 3 seasons Messier was in Vancouver and continued to until the team was finally blown up in 04.

Both franchise's and their all-world roster's missed the playoffs before Messier even arrived, Messier was old and declining but he simply didn't destroy either team.

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Old
07-24-2013, 10:26 AM
  #67
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Messier did his thing for much longer than Clarke and was better in the playoffs.

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07-24-2013, 11:01 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
His career does look more impressive, although Wayne really was the man with the Oilers, that's probably why Moose has a hard time crackign top 25 on alot of lists.
I disagree with this point. Messier gets a lot of "what if" credit because he was "held back by Gretzky" yet that is turned around on a guy like Bernie Nicholls who played in the exact same situation and for a decent portion of the 88-89 season actually led the league in scoring over Lemieux, Gretzky, and Yzerman.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
So to me it's Trottier > Clarke > Mess.
My order as well.

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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
I'd take Forsberg over both as well. I don't know if I can count on two hands how many players I would take over Forsberg assuming everyone is at their absolute best.....

4
99
66
Gordie
Rocket
Robinson
Lindros
Shore
Potvin
Quote:
Forsberg was one of the most dominating players of all-time IMO if judging by peak.

I still have PEAK Forsberg over....

Beliveau
Lafleur
Coffey
Lidstrom
Morenz
Hull(s)
Trottier
Messier
Clarke
Bossy
Crosby
Yzerman
Sakic
Ovechkin
Bourque
etc.
The bolded were definitely better than Forsberg at peak, everyone else is arguable.

You also left off guys like Fedorov (arguable), Jagr, Pronger, Chelios, and even Zetterberg (arguable) and Datsyuk (arguable). And many more, like Mikita, Harvey, Kelly, etc. Forsberg has become so insanely overrated on these boards it's ridiculous.


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07-24-2013, 11:07 AM
  #69
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Messier did his thing for much longer than Clarke and was better in the playoffs.
Messier had an offensive advantage. If you are giving him his longevity as a significant advantage, that offensive advantage goes away. Why? Because Messier's offensive peak was not any better than Clarke's.

Clarke had a decided defensive advantage. There isn't much debate on this point.

They were both physical, intimidating players but Messier has an advantage there. Both were excellent leaders, and it's arguable who is better.

I give it to Clarke; Messier hanging around for several years as a ridiculously overpaid depth player just to compile numbers doesn't make him better than Clarke.

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07-24-2013, 11:23 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The bolded were definitely better than Forsberg at peak, everyone else is arguable.

You also left off guys like Fedorov (arguable), Jagr, Pronger, Chelios, and even Zetterberg (arguable) and Datsyuk (arguable). And many more, like Mikita, Harvey, Kelly, etc. Forsberg has become so insanely overrated on these boards it's ridiculous.
Well, we can agree to disagree. Skating, passing, tenacity, physical play, scoring, clutch play and defense..... Forsberg did it all at his peak and with style that was often jaw-dropping. There were no flaws in Forsberg's game.... he was almost the perfect player like Orr (injuries aside.... talking healthy at PEAK).

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07-24-2013, 11:28 AM
  #71
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Messier had an offensive advantage. If you are giving him his longevity as a significant advantage, that offensive advantage goes away. Why? Because Messier's offensive peak was not any better than Clarke's
WRONG. Messier maintained his abilities as a top notch offensive player until his age 36 season. Clarke was only over a point-per-game once after the age of 28 (in a higher scoring era than the one Messier got old in. I agree with you that their regular season offense peaks were very similar. But Messier maintained it for much longer.

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Clarke had a decided defensive advantage. There isn't much debate on this point.
Agree.

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They were both physical, intimidating players but Messier has an advantage there. Both were excellent leaders, and it's arguable who is better.
Agree. Messier had a unique ability to physically dominate his opposing center in a way that I haven't seen anyone else do. Makes up a lot of the advantage in pure defense that Clarke had.

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I give it to Clarke; Messier hanging around for several years as a ridiculously overpaid depth player just to compile numbers doesn't make him better than Clarke.
Messier won Hart Trophies at the ages of 29 and 31, then was runner up for the Hart at the age of 35. He didn't move to the Canucks (and start "compiling numbers as an overpaid depth player") until he was 37.

Clarke only had one point-per-game season after the age of 28 (in an era where point-per-game seasons were incredibly common), and retired after his age 34 season.

I get that there are reasons to give it to Clarke (basically you think Clarke's defensive advantage in his prime makes up for Messier's longevity and better offense in the playoffs). But pretending that Messier doesn't have a longevity advantage is crap.

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Old
07-24-2013, 11:39 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Well, we can agree to disagree. Skating, passing, tenacity, physical play, scoring, clutch play and defense..... Forsberg did it all at his peak and with style that was often jaw-dropping. There were no flaws in Forsberg's game.... he was almost the perfect player like Orr (injuries aside.... talking healthy at PEAK).
You can't separate these.

Most players who play any kind of significant physical game will also often miss time injured.

It's a tradeoff.

That's actually one of the big arguments in Messier's favor; he rarely missed time injured despite his style.

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07-24-2013, 11:42 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You can't separate these.

Most players who play any kind of significant physical game will also often miss time injured.

It's a tradeoff.
Agree.

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That's actually one of the big arguments in Messier's favor; he rarely missed time injured despite his style.
Messier actually did regularly miss between 5-8 games per season, probably due to his style of play, but rarely more than that. He was always there in the playoffs though.

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07-24-2013, 02:27 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Bobby Clarke was my favorite player growing up, outside of that ugly ankle breaking incident, loved his desire and determination.

That being said his stats are really weak for a top 20ish guy of all time. He played in a really diluted league and only really had elite stats when he was the set up guy for Reggie "the rifle" Leach.

Moose is sometimes overrated as well, he played for a very long time but his ego also hurt his legacy in Vancouver and his final seasons in New York were hardly productive.

As a career guy I'm inclined to take Moose over Clarke but would take Trotts over both of them and Forsberg as well
.
I agree with all of the bolded. I'm not as big on Clarke as most people are.

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07-24-2013, 02:36 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You can't separate these.

Most players who play any kind of significant physical game will also often miss time injured.

It's a tradeoff.

That's actually one of the big arguments in Messier's favor; he rarely missed time injured despite his style.
Sure you can, depending on the criteria. If we're evaluating talent using "longevity, health and durability" then, yes, they are factors. If we're evaluating talent (as I am right now) based on a "snap shot of a player's peak when they are at the pinnacle of their career" then their long-term durability is irrelevant for the particular evaluation. It's kind of like saying, "Well, Orr was better than Lidstrom at their peak, but if you factor in Nick's longevity, you have to say he was the better player since Orr only played parts of 9 seasons." I'm looking at this as "who was better when they were at their very best."

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