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11-20-2006, 12:39 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
Pff I probably wouldn't even deal Higgins for Frolov straight up...what a ridiculous guy.
Please tell me that is sarcasm....

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11-20-2006, 12:40 AM
  #27
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Please tell me that is sarcasm....
Why? I wouldn't deal Higgins for Frolov either. What's Montreal's incentive?

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11-20-2006, 12:42 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Which has no bearing on anything today.


In other words, Souray is superior to Visnovsky in some parts of the game, and brings a different style to the table. Which is contrary to what no name stated.


I'm really not sure why you're responding to my post if you didn't bother reading what I was responding to. The L.A. fan I was responding to claimed Visnovsky was better than Souray in every way.

Thanks for the insight.
You wanted to refer to the stats, I did that, and now it has no bearing on today?

Indeed he does.

Didn't see that he claimed Visnovsky was better than Souray in every facet, my apologies.

You're welcome.

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11-20-2006, 12:43 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Please tell me that is sarcasm....
Nope. In the words of Herb Brooks, Higgins is the ''right'' player for Montreal.

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11-20-2006, 12:44 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Why? I wouldn't deal Higgins for Frolov either. What's Montreal's incentive?
Their incentive would be that they get the better overall player, usually when your team gets the better overall player in a deal, you jump at that chance. Fans might snub the deal, but Gainey would jump at that chance.

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11-20-2006, 12:49 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
You wanted to refer to the stats, I did that, and now it has no bearing on today?
Right. What bearing does statistics 6 years ago have on today?

As no name rightly suggested, Souray, once upon a time, had a cannon of a shot but couldn't hit the net. Over the course of the last 2-3 years, he's worked on the accuracy of his shot and he's now a weapon on the PP. Previously he was restricted exclusively to PK/defensive-defenseman role.

In other words, bringing forth statistics from six years ago that don't reflect the type of player Souray is today aren't all that useful. The fact of the matter is that Souray's shot is a weapon in itself and I'd take his over Visnovsky's.

Does that mean Souray's a better PP QB than Visnovsky? No.

I would, of course, take Visnovsky any day over Souray. But that's neither here nor there. The two players are not in the same league.

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11-20-2006, 12:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Their incentive would be that they get the better overall player, usually when your team gets the better overall player in a deal, you jump at that chance. Fans might snub the deal, but Gainey would jump at that chance.
Right. Have you ever seen Higgins play? I mean honestly?

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11-20-2006, 12:50 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Their incentive would be that they get the better overall player, usually when your team gets the better overall player in a deal, you jump at that chance. Fans might snub the deal, but Gainey would jump at that chance.
Explain how inconsistent Frolov is the better 'overall' player.

You're free to bring up Higgins' notable defensive lapses and inability to play the PK if you wish.

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11-20-2006, 01:07 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
Right. Have you ever seen Higgins play? I mean honestly?
Have you ever seen Frolov play? Honestly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Explain how inconsistent Frolov is the better 'overall' player.

You're free to bring up Higgins' notable defensive lapses and inability to play the PK if you wish.
Please explain to me how Frolov is considered inconsistent? A steady rise in his points production in ever season he's been in the Nhl somehow turns him into a inconsistent player? How so?

I never said anything of the sort, so stop trying to force words into my mouth. You don't believe me that Frolov is a better player, that's fine, but there's something about leading the RSL in goals scored, and then in his 4 years in the NHL, continuously improving year upon year makes me believe that he's better than Higgins who at only one year younger only has only 2 NHL seasons.

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11-20-2006, 01:09 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by no name View Post
Are you close personal friends with Lombardi because whoever told you this is selling something.


By the way guys, I dont think there is a person outside Montreal who would say that Souray is better than Visnovski at anything. The guy has as inaccurate a shot as there is out of a PP dman and is a complete puck hog.
Sheldon Souray is currently third in the league (only counting Ds, of course) in shooting % at 13.6%. I don't like to rely on stats for an argument, but this one is just so obvious, I can't think of a better way to express it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Their incentive would be that they get the better overall player, usually when your team gets the better overall player in a deal, you jump at that chance. Fans might snub the deal, but Gainey would jump at that chance.
Do you think that Dallas would want to move Lehtinen for Frolov? Now pretend Lehtinen is 23, that's what the habs think they have in Higgins. Gainey has made the comparison to the press, as has Carbonneau. Higgins is very much a Gainey and Carbonneau style of player, so I very much doubt they would consider moving him for Frolov. He also has demonstrated some pretty good chemistry with Koivu, which Frolov obviously has not. I still don't see any upside for the habs in that trade. I don't see any upside for LA either, for very similar reasons.

I also don't see any reason to think Frolov is the better player at this point. Frolov started producing at around the same age Higgins did, and they both play a pretty solid game at both ends of the ice. Higgins career to date has been pretty comparable to Frolov's at the same age.

Geez, this thread has been painful. It's basically been habs fans saying "that doesn't make sense for the habs" and then LA fans coming back with "You guys are all homers, Visnovsky >> Souray". Am I the only one who notices how those two arguments just don't jive together?

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11-20-2006, 01:10 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
Pff I probably wouldn't even deal Higgins for Frolov straight up...what a ridiculous guy.
I was goint to post exactly this . You stole the post right out of my mouth!! .

Anyway...rumours can be fun (& sometimes annoying). This is all just a rumour...
Frolov makes 2mil/year...what about next year?

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11-20-2006, 01:11 AM
  #37
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Why in the world would the Kings trade one of their core who is very very cap friendly for the next few years for a defenseman who is UFA at the end of the season? It makes absolutley no sense what so ever. As far as the Kings needing a pp qb they have Vish. Yeah Souray is killer on the pp but when you only have 2 pts even strength to me that is a problem.

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11-20-2006, 01:12 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Have you ever seen Frolov play? Honestly?



Please explain to me how Frolov is considered inconsistent? A steady rise in his points production in ever season he's been in the Nhl somehow turns him into a inconsistent player? How so?
15 points in his first 9 games, 6 points in the next 13. I don't like to call players in their early 20's inconsistent, but with a stats line like that I can see how others would, and it must be awfully hard to disprove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
I never said anything of the sort, so stop trying to force words into my mouth. You don't believe me that Frolov is a better player, that's fine, but there's something about leading the RSL in goals scored, and then in his 4 years in the NHL, continuously improving year upon year makes me believe that he's better than Higgins who at only one year younger only has only 2 NHL seasons.
Compared to 4? So your argument is that Frolov is better than Higgins because he broke into the NHL one year younger? Higgins has been getting better every year in the NHL too, so that's not really an edge to Frolov. I still say they've had pretty comparable careers in the NHL so far.


Last edited by Squeaky: 11-20-2006 at 01:19 AM.
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11-20-2006, 01:12 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Please explain to me how Frolov is considered inconsistent? A steady rise in his points production in ever season he's been in the Nhl somehow turns him into a inconsistent player? How so?

I never said anything of the sort, so stop trying to force words into my mouth. You don't believe me that Frolov is a better player, that's fine, but there's something about leading the RSL in goals scored, and then in his 4 years in the NHL, continuously improving year upon year makes me believe that he's better than Higgins who at only one year younger only has only 2 NHL seasons.
I like Frolov, but he scores in bunches. That's inconsistent, in my books.

I don't care what Frolov does in the RSL either.

Nor does Higgins being in the league for 2 NHL seasons while being of similar age to Frolov have any real relevance here.

Explain to us, will you: why is it such an outlandish, biased stance to believe Higgins should not be dealt for Frolov? Tell me what you feel Higgins offers a team, and what you feel Frolov brings to the table that makes it worth it for Montreal to deal Higgins straight up for him.

I'm not requesting a lengthy detailed report here, but I am curious.

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11-20-2006, 01:19 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I like Frolov, but he scores in bunches. That's inconsistent, in my books.

I don't care what Frolov does in the RSL either.

Nor does Higgins being in the league for 2 NHL seasons while being of similar age to Frolov have any real relevance here.

Explain to us, will you: why is it such an outlandish, biased stance to believe Higgins should not be dealt for Frolov? Tell me what you feel Higgins offers a team, and what you feel Frolov brings to the table that makes it worth it for Montreal to deal Higgins straight up for him.

I'm not requesting a lengthy detailed report here, but I am curious.
Why wouldnt the Kings trade Frolov for Higgins? Maybe the fact that at the same age Frolov outscored Higgins while playing in less games and being a very solid 2 way player. Frolov has the upper hand in puck prtoectin and being able ti keep defenders away from. Put him in the corners and 90% of the time hes coming away with the puck. Not sure if the same can be said for Higgins.

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11-20-2006, 01:20 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Why wouldnt the Kings trade Frolov for Higgins? Maybe the fact that at the same age Frolov outscored Higgins while playing in less games and being a very solid 2 way player. Frolov has the upper hand in puck prtoectin and being able ti keep defenders away from. Put him in the corners and 90% of the time hes coming away with the puck. Not sure if the same can be said for Higgins.
Go find a post where someone said the Kings should trade Frolov for Higgins. You can't do it, because it doesn't exist.

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11-20-2006, 01:21 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Why wouldnt the Kings trade Frolov for Higgins?
Please pay attention. I asked why it was so outlandish and biased for one to think Montreal should not deal Higgins for Frolov.

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11-20-2006, 01:22 AM
  #43
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If anything, the whole Higgins debacle is a response to the brilliant mind who said you'd have to include Higgins and a first rounder in addition to Souray for Frolov. That was the single most brilliant and fair for both sides trade proposal I've heard on Hf.

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11-20-2006, 01:26 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Why wouldnt the Kings trade Frolov for Higgins? Maybe the fact that at the same age Frolov outscored Higgins while playing in less games and being a very solid 2 way player. Frolov has the upper hand in puck prtoectin and being able ti keep defenders away from. Put him in the corners and 90% of the time hes coming away with the puck. Not sure if the same can be said for Higgins.
If you're talking about Higgins' rookie season versus Frolov's 22 year old season...well the stats don't add up because one was in the NHL and the other was in Russia. muhahhaa

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11-20-2006, 01:37 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
If you're talking about Higgins' rookie season versus Frolov's 22 year old season...well the stats don't add up because one was in the NHL and the other was in Russia. muhahhaa
Well tot hat point at 21 Frolov outscored Higgins at 22 in the NHL. Each player brings something unique to their respective teams. I just dont see Lombardi trading Frolov for Higgins straight up in any situation.

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11-20-2006, 01:41 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Well tot hat point at 21 Frolov outscored Higgins at 22 in the NHL. Each player brings something unique to their respective teams. I just dont see Lombardi trading Frolov for Higgins straight up in any situation.
Nobody disagrees with you.

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11-20-2006, 02:08 AM
  #47
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I am a Kings fan. I could definatly see the Canadians and Kings making a trade. But lets look at it from a smaller aspect. Lets be real here. Montreal is not going to trade Higgins and LA arnt going to trade Frolov. Due to the fact that Souray has expressed intrest in playing in Southern California and I have herd about issues between Souray and Gainey it leaves Souray as the odd man out when it comes time to sign Markov and Rivet, so I feel this diminishes his trade value a little bit. But that also doesnt mean that Montreal is going to give him away. I could see Visnovsky , Conroy and some young defence going to Montreal because your stacked with Forward prospects but not so much defensive prospects, And in return I could see Souray , Ryder and a 1st round pick. Souray is a UFA , Ryder will center the deal and your 1st...lets be real lol. Your going to make the playoffs so your pick will be like 30th...And Visnovsky is going to be better then any D-man your going to get with the 30th pick. Visnovsky and Markov on the same team should be against the law specially that they are spitting images of eachother. Visnovsky is making 1.9 this year and next year. If you can sign Markov Rivet and Visnovsky all to long term deals then your D is set for the next 5 years and you can use those 5 years to draft more D. DONT KILL ME TOO MUCH IF YOU DISAGREE. Also Im sorry that some of my fellow Kings fans disrespected your passion for your team. I have a summer home in Montreal and am considering moving there and going to the Fourm to watch a Montreal game was one of the highlights of my hockey life and how beautiful the city was it was also amazing.! Thanks.

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11-20-2006, 02:32 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by riseandfall9 View Post
I am a Kings fan. I could definatly see the Canadians and Kings making a trade. But lets look at it from a smaller aspect. Lets be real here. Montreal is not going to trade Higgins and LA arnt going to trade Frolov. Due to the fact that Souray has expressed intrest in playing in Southern California and I have herd about issues between Souray and Gainey it leaves Souray as the odd man out when it comes time to sign Markov and Rivet, so I feel this diminishes his trade value a little bit. But that also doesnt mean that Montreal is going to give him away. I could see Visnovsky , Conroy and some young defence going to Montreal because your stacked with Forward prospects but not so much defensive prospects, And in return I could see Souray , Ryder and a 1st round pick. Souray is a UFA , Ryder will center the deal and your 1st...lets be real lol. Your going to make the playoffs so your pick will be like 30th...And Visnovsky is going to be better then any D-man your going to get with the 30th pick. Visnovsky and Markov on the same team should be against the law specially that they are spitting images of eachother. Visnovsky is making 1.9 this year and next year. If you can sign Markov Rivet and Visnovsky all to long term deals then your D is set for the next 5 years and you can use those 5 years to draft more D. DONT KILL ME TOO MUCH IF YOU DISAGREE. Also Im sorry that some of my fellow Kings fans disrespected your passion for your team. I have a summer home in Montreal and am considering moving there and going to the Fourm to watch a Montreal game was one of the highlights of my hockey life and how beautiful the city was it was also amazing.! Thanks.
Your post was pretty good, you're not going to get killed, at least not by habs fans. I could see LA fans not liking the idea of dealing Visnovsky, but Souray, Ryder and a first for Conroy and Visnovsky probably won't bother many habs fans that much, though some may oppose it. Realistically, I just don't see LA moving Visnovsky, and probably not the habs moving Souray either. If there is a trade to be made between the two teams, I think Ryder for Conroy and that young D you mentioned is the most realistic proposal to be found, with the habs possibly (maybe I should say probably) adding to Ryder, (probably either a depth D like Dandenault if they get a roster D back, or a draft pick if not), depending on which young D is coming back.

I pretty much view Visnovsky as being LA's version of Markov, which means that he's a D the team really can't afford to be without, or at least that the price to pick him up would be something the habs couldn't afford. I think the reason this thread has gotten this crazy is the suggestions that the habs might deal for Frolov or Visnovsky. I just can't see a situation where the habs (a team that is winning at the moment) could justify spending what it would take to acquire either.

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11-20-2006, 02:37 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
The way I look at it is:

Montreal is in 6th place (25 pts) with 63 games remaining

Los Angeles is in 11th place (18 pts) with 60 games remaining

Montreal made the playoffs last year, Los Angeles did not.

Therefore Montreal is better.

Higgins (Montreal) > Frolov (Los Angeles)

End of discussion...

P.S. 1993 Stanley Cup Finals - Montreal 4 - Los Angeles 1

Montreal 24 Cups, Los Angeles 0 Cups
That's brutally bad, inflammatory logic. I hope LA fans can be big enough to ignore it.

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11-20-2006, 02:40 AM
  #50
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There have been lots of ridiculous Frolov rumors coming from the overeager press:

- some Vancouver fans thought they overheard Pierre Maguire claiming that Frolov was 40 pounds overweight and had a drinking problem, which was why Keenan turned down a rumored deal for Luongo. Pure BS - the rumored deal was supposed to be Demitra, Brown and Garon, but Keenan supposedly wanted Frolov instead of Demitra, and the deal fell apart (according to something I heard once...). Demitra was then traded for O'Sullivan and first.

- someobody claimed that the Kings' offered Frolov, Brown, Garon and a 1st for Nabokov, and that San Jose turned it down! Again pure BS...

- Frolov for Souray? Even more BS...

Nobody claims that Frolov is untouchable, and certainly he can be improved upon by a few young wingers, but very few players in the league have his combination of outstanding defensive awareness, puck recovery and possesion skills, and offensive potential. His numbers are progressing slowly, but they are still progressing. It would be very difficult to imagine Frolov leaving for anything less than a massive overpayment.

If the Kings were a consistant playoff team, most fans would be raving about the little things Frolov does to help the team. Since we have been in the bottom third of the league during Frolov's tenure, most fans seem to concentrate on the lack of flashy skills or top-level production and pay little mind to the other areas of the game in which he excells.

Higgins is a keeper, though. However, I'd have trouble dealing Frolov for him straight up, and from the sounds of it, so do most of your fans for the opposite reason.

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