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Old
12-02-2006, 01:02 AM
  #76
kingsfan77
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i too play the game. And if you really watch the game as a player you will see the goals that are going in just shouldnt happen. The guys in the beer league make that stop. Now that being said I will never fault a goaltender for rebounds that get put in. That is the D's job but most of the goals are first shot goals that he has a good look at. If he was on my team i would have kicked him. The team has no faith in him and it shows. Probably making it harder for him to play cause he is thinking to much. He needs to be sent down and we can set a bag of pucks on the bench and call that our back up. His angles are off. His movements are slow and he isnt challenging the shooters enough. He is to far back in his net and to slow to make up for it. He cant play in the bigs that way. Find your game now or find it in the minors

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12-02-2006, 01:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by kingsfan77 View Post
i too play the game. And if you really watch the game as a player you will see the goals that are going in just shouldnt happen. The guys in the beer league make that stop. Now that being said I will never fault a goaltender for rebounds that get put in. That is the D's job but most of the goals are first shot goals that he has a good look at. If he was on my team i would have kicked him. The team has no faith in him and it shows. Probably making it harder for him to play cause he is thinking to much. He needs to be sent down and we can set a bag of pucks on the bench and call that our back up. His angles are off. His movements are slow and he isnt challenging the shooters enough. He is to far back in his net and to slow to make up for it. He cant play in the bigs that way. Find your game now or find it in the minors
Good post. I completely agree.

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12-02-2006, 02:48 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by kingsfan77 View Post
i too play the game. And if you really watch the game as a player you will see the goals that are going in just shouldnt happen. The guys in the beer league make that stop. Now that being said I will never fault a goaltender for rebounds that get put in. That is the D's job but most of the goals are first shot goals that he has a good look at. If he was on my team i would have kicked him. The team has no faith in him and it shows. Probably making it harder for him to play cause he is thinking to much. He needs to be sent down and we can set a bag of pucks on the bench and call that our back up. His angles are off. His movements are slow and he isnt challenging the shooters enough. He is to far back in his net and to slow to make up for it. He cant play in the bigs that way. Find your game now or find it in the minors
You took the thought out of my mind.

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12-02-2006, 03:48 AM
  #79
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amen... that is it....perfect

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12-02-2006, 06:38 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by kingsfan77 View Post
I will never fault a goaltender for rebounds that get put in. That is the D's job...
Maybe you won't but I wouldn't be so quick to make a statement like that. If a goalie can't properly rebound the puck and provide the D with an opportunity to clear the puck, then I fault the goaltender. Certainly you've witness a forward skating in with the puck and taking a shot, only to have the goalie rebound it right back onto the forward's stick instead of directing it left or right. That's not the D's fault...that's the goalie.

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12-03-2006, 01:32 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Maybe you won't but I wouldn't be so quick to make a statement like that. If a goalie can't properly rebound the puck and provide the D with an opportunity to clear the puck, then I fault the goaltender. Certainly you've witness a forward skating in with the puck and taking a shot, only to have the goalie rebound it right back onto the forward's stick instead of directing it left or right. That's not the D's fault...that's the goalie.
point is that defender is the player with a job of stoping forwards, not goalie, and if Frw is first on rebound than Dman failed his job

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12-03-2006, 01:46 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by guderian View Post
point is that defender is the player with a job of stoping forwards, not goalie, and if Frw is first on rebound than Dman failed his job
Not always.......don't forget that when a player does not have the puck they have the right to skate pretty much where they want. If the defenseman prevents him from skating to a spot in an attempt at a rebound then he is "interfering" with the player. That is a penalty. It is the goalies job to stop the puck entirely or to attempt to steer rebounds into the corner away from quality scoring areas. But when a goalie rebounds a puck right back into the slot it is definitely his fault. Most "good" goalies do not do this.

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12-03-2006, 02:01 AM
  #83
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Actually, I'd like to erase everyone's names off this petition! The best thing for the Kings is to have to score a ton of points and thus hopefully inflate everyone's value. That way, not only can Kopitar get more points and have a better chance at the Calder, but more importantly the vets will look better to other GMs come trade time. Plus the more games we lose, the better the pick we get for our rebuild.

Losing a ton of games while getting maximum value for our vets, including Garon, at the trade deadline - that's the best way for the Kings to go. It's the "Cloutier way."

Otherwise, I can only see three other possibilities for the future of this team:

First, we win some games and coupled with our slow start, we get to the playoffs barely by replacing Cloutier with a competent goaltender. We keep our vets. We lose in humiliating fashion in the first round to the Ducks and then get a crappy pick in an awful draft. And we stall halfway in our rebuild, potentially wasting a couple more years of Frolov, Brown and possibly Visnovsky's careers as the rebuild continues.

Second, same as above but we barely miss the playoffs and get a still-crappy pick while wasting valuable time again.

Third, we attempt to stay the course and still lose a ton. We get very little for our
vets either because we kept most of them and the others lose significant value because they got few points because they had little to play for. And we get a decent pick in a bad draft.

None of these three scenarios are good. You want to get rid of Cloutier for real? You will need to play him and either hope he loses a ton and thus gets us max value for our picks and our vets in trade. Or, you hope he mysteriously turns it around and we either want to keep him or we get some value back in a trade because he plays well enough that other GMs want him. We must play this season this way and hopefully get a lot for our vets because the draft simply isn't one we can build around like the 2003 draft and a top pick isn't guaranteed. We will get more for the rebuild by getting good value for our vets.

Last thing...keep in mind how many years the Devils (late 80s and early 90s), Red Wings (80s), Nordiques/Avalanche (early 90s) and the Penguins (all the years before Lemieux, and again before MAF and Crosby) had to be dead last or near there in order to build their mini-dynasties. Lets be patient with our rebuild and keep supporting our GM to make more JMFJ and Sully trades, and thus we can concentrate all that young talent into one team a couple years from now.

- Ror

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Old
12-03-2006, 02:38 AM
  #84
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On behalf of Canuck fans around the world. I thank you for taking this piece of garbage goaltender off our hands and paying him an incredibly ludacris price for many years. It's the greatest 2nd rounder ever. I didn't expect we would get even a 2nd rounder for the worst goaltender in the league.

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12-03-2006, 02:59 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
On behalf of Canuck fans around the world. I thank you for taking this piece of garbage goaltender off our hands and paying him an incredibly ludacris price for many years. It's the greatest 2nd rounder ever. I didn't expect we would get even a 2nd rounder for the worst goaltender in the league.
You know, I thought I just hated overpaid French Canadian goaltenders. Now, I'm starting to dislike all Canadians.

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12-03-2006, 04:16 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Skebo View Post
You know, I thought I just hated overpaid French Canadian goaltenders. Now, I'm starting to dislike all Canadians.
There is nothing wrong with what I said. It's all factual. he is the worst goaltender in the league. Go look at the stats.

And I be you don't hate.

CAMMALLERI , AVERY, Rob Blake, Derek Armstrong.. etc etc etc.

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12-03-2006, 08:24 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
And I be you don't hate.
Quoted for truth.

I tried the little "cue-eff-tee" thingy but the server wouldn't display it.

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Old
12-03-2006, 10:49 AM
  #88
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KingsFan77 - If I didn't know better, I'd think you were talking about LaBarbera.....

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Old
12-03-2006, 02:23 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
On behalf of Canuck fans around the world. I thank you for taking this piece of garbage goaltender off our hands and paying him an incredibly ludacris price for many years.
What has this world come to when people think that rappers can spell?

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Old
12-03-2006, 03:15 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
Not always.......don't forget that when a player does not have the puck they have the right to skate pretty much where they want. If the defenseman prevents him from skating to a spot in an attempt at a rebound then he is "interfering" with the player. That is a penalty. It is the goalies job to stop the puck entirely or to attempt to steer rebounds into the corner away from quality scoring areas. But when a goalie rebounds a puck right back into the slot it is definitely his fault. Most "good" goalies do not do this.
I disagree. Every goaltender does this a few times each game. Often, they have very little control over where certain shots rebound to. It's just that, when a Kings goaltender does it, the defender doesn't beat the attacker to the puck and it ends up in the net. "Good" teams with good defense clear those pucks and you quickly forget that the goaltender gave up a dangerous rebound.

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Old
12-03-2006, 03:25 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
I disagree. Every goaltender does this a few times each game. Often, they have very little control over where certain shots rebound to. It's just that, when a Kings goaltender does it, the defender doesn't beat the attacker to the puck and it ends up in the net. "Good" teams with good defense clear those pucks and you quickly forget that the goaltender gave up a dangerous rebound.
OK if you think "every" goaltender does this try watching a Devils' game or Flames' game. I would be shocked if I saw either Broduer or Kiprussof give up a rebound right into the slot more than once a game. Then look a Giguere yesterday. I am reasonably sure he didn't give up a rebound down the middle even once during the entire game. But Cloutier did it at least 6 or 7 times. The 1st goal of the game was scored this way.

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12-03-2006, 05:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
OK if you think "every" goaltender does this try watching a Devils' game or Flames' game. I would be shocked if I saw either Broduer or Kiprussof give up a rebound right into the slot more than once a game. Then look a Giguere yesterday. I am reasonably sure he didn't give up a rebound down the middle even once during the entire game. But Cloutier did it at least 6 or 7 times. The 1st goal of the game was scored this way.
I think that, if you were to look for flaws in other goaltenders' games as intently as you do in Cloutier's, you'd be surprised.

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12-03-2006, 05:51 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
when the LAK signed him to an extention that gave the nucks the conditional pick in 2009--what round is the pick?
I'm certain I've read that it was another 2nd rounder, but I can't seem to find any official confirmation.

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12-03-2006, 06:19 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
I think that, if you were to look for flaws in other goaltenders' games as intently as you do in Cloutier's, you'd be surprised.
Goaltending is one of my main focuses whenever I watch a game. And I must say that many goalies in this league that see the number of shots per game and quality scoring chances that Dan does and still do not give up the amount of goals that he does.

In fact here are a list of goalies who face more shots per game than Cloutier....yet have a better save% and GAA.

Cloutier shots/game: 27.93 Save%: .862 GAA: 3.86

  1. Kolzig shots/game: 36.22 Save%: .916 GAA: 3.05
  2. Roloson shots/game: 30.18 Save%: .915 GAA: 2.56
  3. Nittimaki shots/game: 30.19 Save%: .900 GAA: 3.00
  4. Kiprusoff shots/game: 29.39 Save%: .928 GAA: 2.10
  5. Fleury shots/game: 31.75 Save%: .907 GAA: 2.97
  6. Raycroft shots/game: 29.02 Save%: .901 GAA: 2.88
  7. Giguere shots/game: 28.18 Save%: .923 GAA: 2.18
  8. Lehtonen shots/game: 29.81 Save%: .909 GAA: 2.70
  9. Ward shots/game: 28.00 Save%: .895 GAA: 2.93
  10. Lundqvist shots/game: 29.23 Save%: .900 GAA: 2.91
  11. Fernandez shots/game: 30.39 Save%: .911 GAA: 2.71
  12. Thomas shots/game: 31.84 Save%: .906 GAA: 3.00
  13. Miller shots/game: 31.22 Save%: .909 GAA: 2.83
  14. DiPietro shots/game: 30.79 Save%: .916 GAA: 2.59
  15. Leclaire shots/game: 29.69 Save%: .895 GAA: 3.13

The list is actually longer than this....but once I got to this point I realized that Cloutier actually faces less shots per game than the average NHL goalie......Yet he still has the worst Save% and GAA in the entire league.

The Kings are actually ranked #7 in the league for least amount of shots given up per game while being ranked #4 in shots for per game. So the fact that this team is losing is a combination of bad goals given up and not capitalizing on scoring opportunities.


Last edited by Captain Ron: 12-03-2006 at 06:33 PM.
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Old
12-04-2006, 12:12 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
I think that, if you were to look for flaws in other goaltenders' games as intently as you do in Cloutier's, you'd be surprised.

You don't have to look at flaws.. just look at goals against

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Old
12-04-2006, 12:19 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Pfft View Post
I'm certain I've read that it was another 2nd rounder, but I can't seem to find any official confirmation.
No, it was if the Kings make the playoffs....

EDIT Nevermind...and there's no mention of it, just a conditional pick.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/trade_deadline...trade_deadline

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Old
12-04-2006, 01:10 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
Not always.......don't forget that when a player does not have the puck they have the right to skate pretty much where they want. If the defenseman prevents him from skating to a spot in an attempt at a rebound then he is "interfering" with the player. That is a penalty. It is the goalies job to stop the puck entirely or to attempt to steer rebounds into the corner away from quality scoring areas. But when a goalie rebounds a puck right back into the slot it is definitely his fault. Most "good" goalies do not do this.

While I do agree with your assessment, this isn't always the goalies fault. I played until recently on the wing, before I made myself "retire" (knees shot, lol), so I can't really comment on a goalies perspective of this, but it's not as simple as steering the rebound where you want. Against any hot or really good goalie, the whole plan is to drive the far post when the winger is carrying into the zone. It really isn't all that hard to shoot the puck low and dictate where the rebound goes. Shoot low and hard to the offwing, if you hit your target it's pretty much either in the net or theres a fat rebound up the middle - there is no way he can hug the near post and still get across in time to control it. Of course, any good defensmen will try and take this shot away by getting in your inside lane and forcing you outside, but if he doesn't you can have a lot of success with it. I see this happen time and time again with the Kings. As a back-checker, your job is to read the play on the wing and recognize if the offense is going to get an open shot, and if they do you better be right on top of anyone driving the net. Avery was guilty of this on the Duck's first goal on Saturday, I beleive. The Kings have a horrible time covering the slot for some strange reason.

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Old
12-04-2006, 01:17 PM
  #98
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Does anyone know the extent of Garon's injury, and if there's been any type of timeline set for his return. So far all i've heard has been very vague.

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Old
12-04-2006, 01:19 PM
  #99
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Does anyone know the extent of Garon's injury, and if there's been any type of timeline set for his return. So far all i've heard has been very vague.
In the other thread someone qouted LA Times. Apparently somethign to the extent of he has to pass two strength tests which are yet to be scheduled and unlikely to play Thursday

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Old
12-04-2006, 08:00 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
It really isn't all that hard to shoot the puck low and dictate where the rebound goes. Shoot low and hard to the offwing, if you hit your target it's pretty much either in the net or theres a fat rebound up the middle - there is no way he can hug the near post and still get across in time to control it. Of course, any good defensmen will try and take this shot away by getting in your inside lane and forcing you outside, but if he doesn't you can have a lot of success with it. I see this happen time and time again with the Kings. As a back-checker, your job is to read the play on the wing and recognize if the offense is going to get an open shot, and if they do you better be right on top of anyone driving the net.
Thanks, Fishhead. This is what I was trying to get across last week. When the goaltender is facing the shooter on the wing and the shot goes to the inside pad, it's very hard for the goaltender not to put the rebound up the middle. As you said, the skaters need to force the shot wide and (especially if they don't do that) intercept anyone driving to the net. As you seemed to imply, the Kings don't seem to quite have the "vision" necessary to do these things and prevent goals of this type.

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