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The worst player in the 500 goal club?

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Old
01-06-2007, 12:35 PM
  #76
arrbez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesfan1981 View Post
I hope that's a joke.
I think he's talking about future 2000 goal scorer Angelo Esposito

And he's right. The guy lacks puck poise.

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Old
01-06-2007, 12:46 PM
  #77
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verbeek

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Old
01-06-2007, 12:50 PM
  #78
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id have to say verbeek

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Old
01-06-2007, 12:58 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey-fan View Post
Interesting question - nobody scores 500 goals by accident and it's clearly an achievement, so in part the question is who on the list is the biggest over-achiever. There's also the element of "help" as in Bobby Orr banking in God-knows how many pucks off Phil Esposito's stick resulting in Espo goals while Espo was simply squatting in the crease ( no offense there Phil ).
So who was banking them off Phil when he was the best player in the Summit Series?

Poor Phil, gets no love...

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01-06-2007, 01:07 PM
  #80
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I just can't believe that guy said Richard.... and he was serious.

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Old
01-06-2007, 03:26 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesfan1981 View Post
Yeah, that argument is REALLY starting to **** me off. I read it everyday on these ****** boards. I don't understand why people don't believe that great teammates feed off each other (i.e. Kurri, Gretzky), to them it allways "X player spoonfed X teammate, so X teammate is overrated and must have a huge asterisk beside his career."

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01-07-2007, 06:23 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
So who was banking them off Phil when he was the best player in the Summit Series?

Poor Phil, gets no love...
Ha ! Maybe I was a little harsh ( and I do mean little ). To your question; hmmm, maybe it was Brad Park or Sarge Savard doing the banking during the Summit Series since Bobby O didn't play - I'd have to check the videos.

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01-09-2007, 10:11 PM
  #83
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As weird as it seems, Esposito gets underrated on this boards, Bobby Orr was a legend on his own but I see Phil as the best power forward to ever play the NHL. The love for Orr tends to take his credits away.

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01-09-2007, 10:30 PM
  #84
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Probably Verbeek.

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01-10-2007, 08:28 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Human_Atombomb View Post
Tough to say. I might go with Pat Verbeek. And I really really like the little ball of hate.
I loved to not like him, that little weasel.

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Old
01-10-2007, 03:01 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
As weird as it seems, Esposito gets underrated on this boards, Bobby Orr was a legend on his own but I see Phil as the best power forward to ever play the NHL. The love for Orr tends to take his credits away.
That would be Gordie Howe, everyone else is battling for second.

The problem is, Esposito's stats were 50% better with Orr than without, the effect chemistry had on him is unreal. And we never saw a healthy Orr minus Esposito. So, it's hard to predict how much was chemsitry and how much was Orr's greatness. The other problem is, Esposito's prime was all spent with Orr, so how much was natural decline? Was Esposito a 1st line center without Orr? Yeah, no doubt about it. Was Espo a top ten all-time center without Orr? No. Top 20 maybe.

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Old
01-10-2007, 11:24 PM
  #87
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Gretzky. Such a liability

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Old
01-10-2007, 11:36 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
That would be Gordie Howe, everyone else is battling for second.

The problem is, Esposito's stats were 50% better with Orr than without, the effect chemistry had on him is unreal. And we never saw a healthy Orr minus Esposito. So, it's hard to predict how much was chemsitry and how much was Orr's greatness. The other problem is, Esposito's prime was all spent with Orr, so how much was natural decline? Was Esposito a 1st line center without Orr? Yeah, no doubt about it. Was Espo a top ten all-time center without Orr? No. Top 20 maybe.
Esposito was the best player in the 1972 Canada/Russia series without Orr. I think Phil could stand on his own quite nicely.

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01-10-2007, 11:36 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
That would be Gordie Howe, everyone else is battling for second.
Never heard about him. (read: forgot)

Your post bring really good points. Usually I try to see things with what we know but the ''ifs'' could tell a whole other story in Espo's case. Rating Esposito's dominance is like the Gretzky/Lemieux debate...full of questions.

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01-10-2007, 11:49 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Esposito was the best player in the 1972 Canada/Russia series without Orr. I think Phil could stand on his own quite nicely.
There's no denying Esposito was a big game player, but, an 8 game series is hardly a career. He'd have been good, but, dominant? It takes more than 8 games to convince me.

I'd love to see Espo's #'s when Orr was hurt vs when Orr was healthy

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01-11-2007, 12:16 AM
  #91
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I don't really like attacking anyone who scores 500. I mean yeah does Dave And bring the game Messier does? Of course not, but the man did his job and did it damn well.

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Old
01-11-2007, 12:47 PM
  #92
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Amongst old-timers - Johny Bucyk
Amongst more contemporary players - Verbeek, Andreychuk, Turgeon, Gartner

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Old
01-11-2007, 04:52 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riffo View Post
Gartner,Verbeek and Richard
Richard? How many cups for Richard... if you say that I say Neely


he's so bad he's not even on the list... what a scrub

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Old
01-12-2007, 06:05 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by tom_servo View Post
Please cite all the years in which Turgeon was a top 10 player, besides '93.
Looking back at his stats again I must rescind my statement a little. He had years where he was a top 10 forward, but not many as I previously said. In 95-96 he scored 96 points in 80 games and in 99-00 he was once again among the top scoring forwards. Anybody who could have 5 straioght seasons of scoring about .5 ppg and still be over 100 points more than gp is not the worst to score 500.

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Old
01-12-2007, 06:18 AM
  #95
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andreychuk has my vote too

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Old
01-17-2007, 12:30 AM
  #96
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people forget with Verbeek he was like theo fluery--but without the off ice crap

he was 5'9 and physical

I was never a Turgeon fan

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Old
01-18-2007, 04:29 AM
  #97
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This thread should be labeled "who do you remember the least?"

85% of these posts are people toeing the line between players who are absolute legends and guys who are great now. It's absurd to say that Nieuwendyk or Selanne are better than Andreychuk, Gartner, or Robitaille.

Gartner is sixth all time in goals. He has over 700 goals and folks are talking about him like it's easy to say he's worse than guys who are right at 500. That's like saying guys with 350 goals are clearly better than the ones with 500.

Andreychuk has 640 and holds the record for most alltime powerplay goals. He wrote the book on being a screen and is one of the prototypical power forwards for the modern era. Scrappy goals are still goals. How many pucks on his stick wouldn't have gone in if he weren't so strong and well positioned? That's much more a part of the game than thread-the-needle passes and toe-dragging or whatever gives you guys boners.

Robitaille is the highest scoring left wing in history. A mind for the game like his is much rarer than the stickhandling and moves of guys like Kovalev or Viktor Kozlov. Luc had one of the best shots of all time.

The problem is that these guys aren't legends yet. So they don't get the respect that the legends get. And whomever is still playing now gets more attention. We're talking people who are in the top half of the 500 goal club and are being treated like they hardly even belong. I can't wait for somebody to say that Fedorov is better than Stastny because of his playoff point totals or that Gilbert Perreault was a better goal scorer than Brett Hull because they played in different eras.

Better yet, prettier goals are worth 2 goals and garbage goals don't even count because garbage goals mean you weren't actually trying to score and the other team didn't actually try to defend against it. I mean, seriously, anybody can score those.
You get a penalty for getting close enough to touch the crease unless you are dekeing the goalie for a backhander top-shelf. And all goals will instead be credited to the player with the primary assist. If you have to resort to slapshots for goals, that's because your wrister isn't good enough (a "wicked wrister" is the only sign of a true goalscorer), and you only get one goal. Unless you are a defenseman, in which case, you have an "absolute cannon" and you would have outscored Gretzky if you played in the same era. At the end of the season, the Stanley Cup is awarded to the single player with the highest plus/minus rating.

Next season: Goaltenders must play in tuxedos and saves can only be made using a double-pad-stack. This is all to preserve the tradition of the game and to ensure that the hall of fame will be truly representative of player skills.

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Old
01-18-2007, 04:39 AM
  #98
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Gartner was never even the 3rd best player at his position according to all-star team voters.

Andreychuk was almost never his teams go to guy, and the team sucked when he was. And, for the record, Gord Drillon wrote the book on standing in the crease.

Robitaille is both underrated and overrated. He's overrated because that highest scoring LW does not reflect his status in history where he is not top 10 all time and is borderline top 10 in NHL history. He's underrated because people forget that he had hands of silk when he plays in L.A.

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01-18-2007, 04:57 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Gartner was never even the 3rd best player at his position according to all-star team voters.

Andreychuk was almost never his teams go to guy, and the team sucked when he was. And, for the record, Gord Drillon wrote the book on standing in the crease.

Robitaille is both underrated and overrated. He's overrated because that highest scoring LW does not reflect his status in history where he is not top 10 all time and is borderline top 10 in NHL history. He's underrated because people forget that he had hands of silk when he plays in L.A.
Do you realize how these all refer to external perception as opposed to actual performance?

All-star votes don't actually determine how you play. People talk about overlooked, overrated, underrated ALL the time around here. Attention and year-to-year popularity are inconsequential to performance or production.

Being the go-to-guy on a team also has nothing to do with overall performance or production. It might indicate your dependability during a certain period or how clutch another player was, but it doesn't matter. Andreychuk was a certain type of player. Of course you're putting the puck on LaFontaine's stick when it counts. But if you don't have Andreychuk on your team, maybe you don't even get to that point as often.
I'll admit hyperbole saying that Andreychuk wrote the book on anything, but there's a bit of a difference between being a screen and playing in the crease.

Again, with Robitaille, it's not a matter of production, it's how he is "rated." If you watched him play and you look at his numbers, there's no mistake. Perception and performance are not directly related. And the responses to this thread, for the most part, reflect that. People are going by general impression or perception of allstar voters rather than watching a guy play and looking at his stats and analyzing them accordingly.

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Old
01-18-2007, 05:34 AM
  #100
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I really never cared for topics like this. It's almost asking an impossible question. A more appropriate question would be "who is the best/worst in relation to their respective eras?". Sports, like anything else, evolve over time. People have this natural way of idealizing and glorifying the past. But the truth is, anyone who doesn't think there is a difference in the level of skill between the eras is being very naive. Players today are bigger, stronger and faster. Immensely better skating is taking place out there. Goalies too are bigger, faster and smarter. Their equipment is massive compared to years ago. There's barely any net to shoot at. Defensive schemes are more sophisticated. The list of reasons can go on and on as far as why it's impossible to compare most of the players on this list to one another. Half are from an era where most goals were scored along the ice. The other half are from an era when a shot skidding along the ice is a usually routine stop for a goalie. Half of the reason Gretzky came on as strong as he did was because he was a modern day level player catching the league at, in my opinion, the tail end of an older era. Sure, every now and again you have those guys who can transcend the sport and be truly ahead of their time(Orr is the obvious answer to this), but those people are very, very rare. Sports and athletes evolve. It's actually a really good thing. But it's also something that makes discussions like this one silly and irrelevant.

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