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Why Muckler has done a good job

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Old
12-01-2006, 11:04 AM
  #101
joolzie
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Originally Posted by sensens View Post
Maybe a one-year window including Havlat would have been more attractive to some, but at the end of the day if the GM doesn't think that's going to result in success, then the GM has to act. And personally, I think a team that's built around a solid and more sustainable core, with the flexibility to address needs when they need to be addressed, is likely a more competitive than one that's built for now-or-bust in September - especially in the salary cap world.
Yep, it's a matter of opinion and perception. I don't hold anything against people who think that Muckler has done a good job. I may think they're overly optimistic... but hey, whatever, the truth will out. I actually don't really see the point in sitting around, stewing in negativity about one's team. I'm just feeling chatty lately and killing some time posting my thoughts.

You bring up a good point that last year was probably Muckler's "Or Bust" year, that he decided if it didn't work it was time to go in another direction... but I don't know that I see that he's actually done that. And I also don't know that I see this current team as having a particularly "solid and sustainable core." A huge amount of contracts are expiring in two years, and most of those players should (if everything goes as planned) be up for fairly sizable raises.

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12-01-2006, 11:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Savannah Skunk View Post
Oh... I often wonder as well. How many games did Havlat play for us last year while we lead the league in scoring and took the conference title? His loss should not affect the team and we get two defencemen AND prospects for him. Not bad in my opinion.
Havlat played early in the year when the Sens were unbeatable and rolled up the points that shored them up later in the year when their record was not so good.

In return for one year of Havlat the Sens got one year of Priessing. Now I think Preissings play is improving and I hope he does well.,however he is not equal value for Havlat. The others in the deal are AHL players who may or may not pan out.

To denigarate a player like Havlat who was one of the most dangerous-and exciting players on the team, or to pretend that the Sens got good value for him, is revisionist thinking.

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12-01-2006, 12:10 PM
  #103
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There is no way any of us could know what the market for Havlat was, what the negotiations were like with Chara, Redden...., if Hasek could have come back to the lockerroom, if Gerber could have got more money elsewhere etc etc.

However, last March we did know that:
1. We would lose at least 1 of Chara or Redden to UFA
2. our 40 year old Hall of Fame goalie with an injury history was injured and we were running with a rookie taking over and a journeyman backing him up
3. Havlat, Spezza and others needed a raise after the season
4. We didn't have a 2nd line center
5. We had proven in the past that we were short on leadership/grit

Ie our window of best opportunity was closing and we had holes to fill.

Which is why bringing in Arnason and only Arnason contunues to shock me.

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12-01-2006, 12:15 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Havlat played early in the year when the Sens were unbeatable and rolled up the points that shored them up later in the year when their record was not so good.

In return for one year of Havlat the Sens got one year of Priessing. Now I think Preissings play is improving and I hope he does well.,however he is not equal value for Havlat. The others in the deal are AHL players who may or may not pan out.

To denigarate a player like Havlat who was one of the most dangerous-and exciting players on the team, or to pretend that the Sens got good value for him, is revisionist thinking.
I think it is very presumptuous of you to make statements like this. Is it up to you to determine what good value is? What if Hennessy turns out to be a Vermette clone in 3 years? What if Barinka turns out to be a Schubert clone in 3 years. What if that 2nd round pick leads to another NHL quality player? I don't get the AHL comment. Prospects play in the AHL and you can't ignore that they have value. You do know that Vermette and Schubert spent their fair share of time in the AHL?
A trade cannot be evaluated 4 months after it is complete. Frankly, to suggest otherwise is silly.

Second of all, unless you are privy to conversations that GMs have with each other, I find it strange how you can blindly determine wether Muckler got good "value" for Havlat. Good value is determined by what GMs around the league were willing to offer as trade. It most definately is not determined by what homer fans think.

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12-01-2006, 02:20 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
In return for one year of Havlat the Sens got one year of Preissing. Now I think Preissing's play is improving and I hope he does well, however he is not equal value for Havlat.
It's not a simple comparison. The new CBA places a significant premium on good players making very cheap salaries. If Preissing is a $2mil player making $600K then that extra $1.4 mil is very nice. In a way, it's like comparing apples and oranges. On talent, Havlat is by far the better player. On talent per dollar, I think Preissing wins.

A GM has to figure out what the balance is between those two things, plus factor in the overall mix of the team.

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12-01-2006, 02:47 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by RTWAP View Post
It's not a simple comparison. The new CBA places a significant premium on good players making very cheap salaries. If Preissing is a $2mil player making $600K then that extra $1.4 mil is very nice. In a way, it's like comparing apples and oranges. On talent, Havlat is by far the better player. On talent per dollar, I think Preissing wins.

A GM has to figure out what the balance is between those two things, plus factor in the overall mix of the team.
But, at the same time, if Havlat would have went to arbitration and got a one year deal...it would have been for WAY less than the $6 mil for 3 years he's getting now. So it goes both ways.

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12-01-2006, 03:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Master Kush View Post
But, at the same time, if Havlat would have went to arbitration and got a one year deal...it would have been for WAY less than the $6 mil for 3 years he's getting now. So it goes both ways.
Dont be so sure. Briere got 5 million for 58 points in 48 games. Havlat could have walked away from 3 to 4.5 million.

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12-01-2006, 04:09 PM
  #108
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I don't get it. I love Havlat as much as the next guy when he's healthy, but he's injury prone, already missed near a quarter of this season for the Blackhawks. And while he could come back and not miss another game, he could just as easily get another injury and be out for another 50. As great as he is when he's fit, I'd rather have Preissing at 600k playing every game than Havlat at 3-6 million playing 20 games.

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12-01-2006, 04:27 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by PlayItAgain View Post
I think it is very presumptuous of you to make statements like this. Is it up to you to determine what good value is? What if Hennessy turns out to be a Vermette clone in 3 years? What if Barinka turns out to be a Schubert clone in 3 years. What if that 2nd round pick leads to another NHL quality player? I don't get the AHL comment. Prospects play in the AHL and you can't ignore that they have value. You do know that Vermette and Schubert spent their fair share of time in the AHL?
A trade cannot be evaluated 4 months after it is complete. Frankly, to suggest otherwise is silly.

Second of all, unless you are privy to conversations that GMs have with each other, I find it strange how you can blindly determine wether Muckler got good "value" for Havlat. Good value is determined by what GMs around the league were willing to offer as trade. It most definately is not determined by what homer fans think.
What are you so excited about? I said the players who are now in the AHL may or may not pan out, how is that presumptuous?

If I think the trade was not a wise use of assets, then I can say so, if someone thinks it was a great trade,they can say so.

By the way, these boards are for fans, so no sense getting up set that"homer"fans are posting here.

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Old
12-01-2006, 06:00 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
What are you so excited about? I said the players who are now in the AHL may or may not pan out, how is that presumptuous?

If I think the trade was not a wise use of assets, then I can say so, if someone thinks it was a great trade,they can say so.

By the way, these boards are for fans, so no sense getting up set that"homer"fans are posting here.
How am I getting upset or excited? Honestly. I'm responding to your comments which sound to me more emotional than logical.

Look at your statement below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty
To denigarate a player like Havlat who was one of the most dangerous-and exciting players on the team, or to pretend that the Sens got good value for him, is revisionist thinking.
How is this trade even remotely denigrating to Havlat. He's making huge coin and got the money he wanted.

Also, how on Earth could anyone's thought on the matter be considered revisionist thinking? In order for someone to be revisionist, there usually has to be a long-standing established viewpoint. As far as I can tell, this is impossible here as the trade only happened a few months ago.

No one is pretending that they are a 100% sure Ottawa got good value for Havlat. In fact, at this point it is impossible to determine wether Muckler did or did not get good value.

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12-01-2006, 06:13 PM
  #111
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Muckler had interesting segment on the team 1200 today. He mentioned he had a deal in place, swapping player for player. The deal fell through as the player to be acquired had two year deal at 1.9 million per season and Muckler couldn't commit to a second year with Volchenkov, Preissing and Phillips looking for new deals next season.

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12-01-2006, 06:31 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Rhizome View Post
Muckler had interesting segment on the team 1200 today. He mentioned he had a deal in place, swapping player for player. The deal fell through as the player to be acquired had two year deal at 1.9 million per season and Muckler couldn't commit to a second year with Volchenkov, Preissing and Phillips looking for new deals next season.
That is interesting! Looking around at various salary/cap information sites, but only spending a few minutes doing it, the names that jump out are Robyn Regehr and Vinny Prospal. Jassen Cullimore and Andrew Ladd too, but I find them doubtful.

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12-01-2006, 07:15 PM
  #113
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I believe Lubomir Visnovsky has another year left on his deal and he makes $1.9M. He could have been an option, but I don't see why Muckler would have been looking at defensemen.

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12-01-2006, 07:15 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by joolzie View Post
That is interesting! Looking around at various salary/cap information sites, but only spending a few minutes doing it, the names that jump out are Robyn Regehr and Vinny Prospal. Jassen Cullimore and Andrew Ladd too, but I find them doubtful.

Others include Jason Smith, David Legwand, Petr Cajanek, Vaclav Prospal and Lubomir Visnovsky. Visnovsky is the only one I'd be interested in, but the Sens have enough offensive dmen.


Last edited by PlayItAgain: 12-01-2006 at 07:31 PM.
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