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The so-called 2nd line center problem

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Old
12-02-2006, 07:04 PM
  #1
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The so-called 2nd line center problem

Ive read it like a hundred times on this board that we are in the need of a second line center. By saying that, are you saying that Nylander is a 1st line center?
I never thought he is or was, hes good but definitly no 1st line center in my book.
If anything try getting a first line center in the off-season and move michael to the 2nd line.

i know he , straka and jagr click together but Id like to see him on the 2nd line, cullen 3rd and betts or maybe even give callahan a shot at the 4th line.

now the question is, what 1st line center is available in the off season? or better yet, whos available NOW?

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12-02-2006, 07:11 PM
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I look at it as a missing 2nd line center mainly because of the chemistry on that 1st line. Jagr, Straka and Nylander are all getting up there in years. Why mess up a good thing? If we can get a 2nd line center without mortgaging the future, that will help the team now. The time to look for a 1st line center is in the future. When guys like Jagr, Straka, Nylander, and Shannahan have all moved on, we'll be able to take stock of what we have and what missing pieces we need. Who knows what the team will look like in a few years. Will Anisimov meet his potential and become a first line guy? Who knows. Bottom line is that we need a top line center in a couple of years, not right now.

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12-02-2006, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, but I look at it as a missing 2nd line center mainly because of the chemistry on that 1st line. Jagr, Straka and Nylander are all getting up there in years. Why mess up a good thing? If we can get a 2nd line center without mortgaging the future, that will help the team now. The time to look for a 1st line center is in the future. When guys like Jagr, Straka, Nylander, and Shannahan have all moved on, we'll be able to take stock of what we have and what missing pieces we need. Who knows what the team will look like in a few years. Will Anisimov meet his potential and become a first line guy? Who knows. Bottom line is that we need a top line center in a couple of years, not right now.

I never knew Anisimov has the potential of a no.1 line player.

Well and Im with you that our first line has chemistry, but Id love to see Jagr with a real number one center. who knows.. up to this point its all speculation, maybe Jagr has chemistry with anyone simply because hes so damn good.

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12-02-2006, 07:25 PM
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I'm not sure how much more you can expect from a 1st line center. Hard to argue with Nylander's production or consider his use on the top line a problem.

Any playmaking pivot from the second line down would improve the team IMO.

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12-02-2006, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I'm not sure how much more you can expect from a 1st line center. Hard to argue with Nylander's production or consider his use on the top line a problem.

Any playmaking pivot from the second line down would improve the team IMO.
Agreed. Is Nylander and #1 center? Probably not. But it's hard to argue with what the top line is doing.

Plus, if the goal is to get Cullen on the third line and Betts on the fourth, it' easier to find a second line center than a first line center.

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12-02-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAlfie View Post
Well and Im with you that our first line has chemistry, but Id love to see Jagr with a real number one center. who knows.. up to this point its all speculation, maybe Jagr has chemistry with anyone simply because hes so damn good.
What if Nylander loses chemistry on the 2nd line? We could very well be "losing" a 1.30 ppg player. You can't expect Nyllet to put up that much points with anyone else than Jagr and Straka.
And, looking at the last games, the production from our top line is definitely not the problem.

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12-02-2006, 07:33 PM
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Come on, let's get down to business. You say Nylander isn't a 1st line center by what perspective? He is not a franchise two-way center, but so what? You can't expect to have franchise material in every position! Especially not with a $44 million cap on salaries. Nylander has played 1st line before and is doing so again with the Rangers.

Nylander is 3rd in scoring in the whole league with a $2.28 million salary and still people are asking for something better. What exactly do you want and with what resources?

So... you want to sacrifice money on a franchise center when we have one of the best scoring lines (including chemistry) in the entire league. Our entire first line is in the top10 in the entire league. It's impossible to address any of our first line players as a problem.

Why not focus on the real problems instead? Cullen is misused and is not used for anything that made him successful in Carolina. Tyutin is not used in PP although most people can agree he has a pretty lethal shot. He hasn't even been tested yet for real. The second line is shooting blanks with Shanahan as an exception, mostly because he has his PP time. The chemistry between Prucha and Cullen looks pretty darn awful. The third and fourth lines aren't producing, but I still don't see it as a priority problem, since they are per definition shutdown lines. They don't score, the opposition doesn't score, mission accomplished. The defense though still looks pretty darn crappy from time to time (most of it), while they still have pretty darn high salaries comparing to the rest of the team.

Ozolinsh, $2.75, Kaspar $2.989, Malik $2.5 (Rozsival is actually scoring now at least, $2.1)...

You can't convince me Nylander is a 2nd line center when he is producing like crazy, is a bargain in salary and is 3rd in the league in scoring (I've said it like a million times, but it's worth to repeat every time). I don't care that Jagr is boosting his value, what do you think other franchise players do to their teammates? Getting another franchise player on the top line smells like the old Rangers to me and is a darn waste of resources. Our great example Buffalo is winning games because they have great player depth and you still want to pinpoint that we have to boost our 1st line even further?

Get real people. Nylander is incredibly effective at what he is paid to do and that is all that is to it. For $2.28 million, fans should bow down to Nylander for what he is contributing to this team. He is giving us a great 1st line playmaking center for peanut money if you compare it to production.

Nylander basically opens up for the Rangers organisation to perform miracles on other parts of the team, but they chose to blew it all up on inflated salaries on overvalued players (misused, overvalued, whatever, they're still not working satisfactory) instead. Don't blame Nylander for that and certainly do not say he is a part of the problem.

Focus on the broken parts instead of the few parts that are actually clicking. And they are clicking like hell.


Last edited by Chimp: 12-02-2006 at 08:13 PM.
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12-02-2006, 08:01 PM
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^Great post, Nylander has been awesome this season. I want a better center for the 2nd line but I dont wanna touch our first line, if it isnt broken, dont fix it. Also we have players being misused and thats a problem, imo defense is a much bigger need than center. We are misusing players badly and we arent doing what our players do best, and thats our main problem.

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12-02-2006, 08:12 PM
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Nylander certainly isn't an elite player but he's producing like one. A lot of that has to do with playing with the super-elite Jagr and a very good player in Straka but even so Nylander adds a lot to that line--often controls the puck long enough for his linemates to lose their checks and is very good then at getting them the puck. Now he's a bit lackadaisical at times in his backchecking but all in all he's been very good for us. Our real problem is production from the other lines apart that is from Shanahan. Cullen seems to me to be misplaced as a 2nd liner--in any case the numbers he's put up so far would be pretty good for a 3rd liner. I wouldn't mind seeing us move one of our extra d-men and maybe a decent prospect or draft pick or two for someone more reliable to stick in that 2nd line center spot but not sure there's a deal out there for us right now. With a move like that we could move Cullen to the 3rd and Betts to the 4th where he really belongs and Hollweg could go back to 4th line wing. I know that's all been said by others before but I agree with the rationale.

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12-02-2006, 08:39 PM
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Another reason moving Nylander down might not work is the style he plays. Jagr and Straka play the same European style so by moving him down who else would he play with that plays that style? We would need a whole new second line. Just think of how many offsides there would be with a line of Shanny-Nylander-Prucha.

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12-03-2006, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASRANGERFAN View Post
Another reason moving Nylander down might not work is the style he plays. Jagr and Straka play the same European style so by moving him down who else would he play with that plays that style? We would need a whole new second line. Just think of how many offsides there would be with a line of Shanny-Nylander-Prucha.
straka and jagr would move to the 2ed line with nylander.

maybe Lang he aint a first line centre but he knows Jagr, Straka, pretty well. Rozsival too.

Lang and kopecky for Immonen, J Ward and Rachunek

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12-03-2006, 12:42 AM
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Kind of ridiculous at this point to say Nylander is not a 1st line Center when he clearly is...

Certainly he is when Jagr is on his wing. They have built a great chemistry. And Straka and Jagr are also so in sync out there.

No this team really could use that playmaker on the 2nd line between Shanny and Prucha....

Montoya, Malik and Immomen for Brad Richards

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12-03-2006, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAlfie View Post
Ive read it like a hundred times on this board that we are in the need of a second line center. By saying that, are you saying that Nylander is a 1st line center?
I never thought he is or was, hes good but definitly no 1st line center in my book.
If anything try getting a first line center in the off-season and move michael to the 2nd line.

i know he , straka and jagr click together but Id like to see him on the 2nd line, cullen 3rd and betts or maybe even give callahan a shot at the 4th line.

now the question is, what 1st line center is available in the off season? or better yet, whos available NOW?
You're wrong about some of this because Nylander is indeed a first line center. In fact, most hockey players would probably tell you he's a very good first line center.

Of course Jagr is bringing out the best in him but I don't give Jagr complete credit. The fact is that the new NHL has facilitated the type of game Nylander plays. So when push comes to shove, Nylander has become a first line center.

Cullen can't play 2nd line center. In fact, I think it's the opportune time to trade him. We need the type of 2nd line center that will give us about 10G and 40A, because Prucha isn't getting what he needs. QAnd if you've noticed, Shanny's scoring is slowing down, which I think is attributable to Cullen's deteriorating game. I just don't think he fits here.

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12-03-2006, 01:43 AM
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anybody that wants to touch the first line is insane. lines are about chemestry and creating the right chemestry to accomplish what each individual lines objectives are. just because there could be another player out there, or even on your team, who is individually better doesn't mean he'll be a better fit. Nylander fills the role of what we need in a 1st line center very nicely.

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12-03-2006, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AHall18NYR View Post
straka and jagr would move to the 2ed line with nylander.

maybe Lang he aint a first line centre but he knows Jagr, Straka, pretty well. Rozsival too.

Lang and kopecky for Immonen, J Ward and Rachunek
Trading our only legitimate shutdown player and an NHL-ready defender when we need both of those types of players is not going to help the team.

Such a move is non-sense.

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12-03-2006, 07:54 AM
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You cant argue with Nylander's production. He is a 1st line Center for as long as Straka and Jagr are on his wing. That line has been together for awhile now, and its still successful - when was the last time they got shutout in a game?

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12-03-2006, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
You're wrong about some of this because Nylander is indeed a first line center. In fact, most hockey players would probably tell you he's a very good first line center.

Of course Jagr is bringing out the best in him but I don't give Jagr complete credit. The fact is that the new NHL has facilitated the type of game Nylander plays. So when push comes to shove, Nylander has become a first line center.

Cullen can't play 2nd line center. In fact, I think it's the opportune time to trade him. We need the type of 2nd line center that will give us about 10G and 40A, because Prucha isn't getting what he needs. QAnd if you've noticed, Shanny's scoring is slowing down, which I think is attributable to Cullen's deteriorating game. I just don't think he fits here.
I can't see Cullen getting traded. He's signed for 4 years.

Perhaps Cullen is just slumping... Shanahan was on pace for something like 70+ goals, it was inevitable that his goal scoring would slow down - Cullen was never much of a factor anyway. (Not sure if that helps his case or hurts it.)

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12-03-2006, 08:50 AM
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The lack of a quality 2nd line center has caused several players to be used out position where they would be of far greater value and impact to the composition of the whole team's character and makeup. By dropping Cullen down to the LW on the checking line you add speed, offense and dogged forechecking. You hopefully will provide a balance to your 2nd line with Shannahan & Prucha. The 4th line is not dominating as it did last year. That has forced Renney to play 3 lines most night and eventually that is going wear down the older players like Shannahan. Can anyone say Mark Messier after new year's every year on his 2nd tour?

It can be a cheap remainder of the year rental. It does not have to be a trade for a quality asset of ours going the other way. Once that piece falls into place I think things will be more consistent. Though I still feel that there is too much duplication on the backline, Ozo, Rachunek, Rozy & Malik. One or two need to be replaced and upgraded to go anywhere in the playoffs.

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12-03-2006, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MrAlfie View Post
By saying that, are you saying that Nylander is a 1st line center?
nylander by himself isn't a true #1 center, but you aren't going to break up that time line so on this team thanks to being paired with jagr he is our top line center...

and right now he is on pace for 32-76-108 +38 which would go down as one of the best seasons in franchise history if he keeps it up for the whole year...so not sure how much better you'd expect a 'true #1' center to be...

but i think part of the problem or confusion here is the assumption that just because we need a center for the 2nd line so cullen and betts get bumped down that this means that the new center has to be worse than nylander. but why can't we trade for a legit #1 center and put him between shanahan and prucha/hall and create a 1/1a situation with the top 2 lines??

lots of factors to weigh but imo the ideal situation would be to get a young #1 center who right now can center the 2nd line and then in a few years when nylander and jagr are gone you already have the #1 center in place.

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12-03-2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AHall18NYR View Post
straka and jagr would move to the 2ed line with nylander.

maybe Lang he aint a first line centre but he knows Jagr, Straka, pretty well. Rozsival too.

Lang and kopecky for Immonen, J Ward and Rachunek
Cant agree IMO Ward gets a 2 year deal at seasons end and goes no where. NYR desperatley need players like Ward who will play tough and hard night ina nd out, stick up for teammates. I dont want to see him go asny where and I dont wanna see Ward and Betts split up either, they could be similar to a Draper/Maltby like Det use to have these guys are mid 20's and play fantastic together. You want to build right when you get 2 guys Betts and Wards age, clciking the way the do especially they are an offensive threat in many ways on the PK, youDONT REMOVE THEM FROM EACH OTHER.Thats a fact.

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12-03-2006, 10:26 AM
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Nylander is a first line center and needs to stay on the first line, no reason to change things there.

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12-03-2006, 10:27 AM
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Come on, let's get down to business. You say Nylander isn't a 1st line center by what perspective? He is not a franchise two-way center, but so what? You can't expect to have franchise material in every position! Especially not with a $44 million cap on salaries. Nylander has played 1st line before and is doing so again with the Rangers.

Nylander is 3rd in scoring in the whole league with a $2.28 million salary and still people are asking for something better. What exactly do you want and with what resources?

So... you want to sacrifice money on a franchise center when we have one of the best scoring lines (including chemistry) in the entire league. Our entire first line is in the top10 in the entire league. It's impossible to address any of our first line players as a problem.

Why not focus on the real problems instead? Cullen is misused and is not used for anything that made him successful in Carolina. Tyutin is not used in PP although most people can agree he has a pretty lethal shot. He hasn't even been tested yet for real. The second line is shooting blanks with Shanahan as an exception, mostly because he has his PP time. The chemistry between Prucha and Cullen looks pretty darn awful. The third and fourth lines aren't producing, but I still don't see it as a priority problem, since they are per definition shutdown lines. They don't score, the opposition doesn't score, mission accomplished. The defense though still looks pretty darn crappy from time to time (most of it), while they still have pretty darn high salaries comparing to the rest of the team.

Ozolinsh, $2.75, Kaspar $2.989, Malik $2.5 (Rozsival is actually scoring now at least, $2.1)...

You can't convince me Nylander is a 2nd line center when he is producing like crazy, is a bargain in salary and is 3rd in the league in scoring (I've said it like a million times, but it's worth to repeat every time). I don't care that Jagr is boosting his value, what do you think other franchise players do to their teammates? Getting another franchise player on the top line smells like the old Rangers to me and is a darn waste of resources. Our great example Buffalo is winning games because they have great player depth and you still want to pinpoint that we have to boost our 1st line even further?

Get real people. Nylander is incredibly effective at what he is paid to do and that is all that is to it. For $2.28 million, fans should bow down to Nylander for what he is contributing to this team. He is giving us a great 1st line playmaking center for peanut money if you compare it to production.

Nylander basically opens up for the Rangers organisation to perform miracles on other parts of the team, but they chose to blew it all up on inflated salaries on overvalued players (misused, overvalued, whatever, they're still not working satisfactory) instead. Don't blame Nylander for that and certainly do not say he is a part of the problem.

Focus on the broken parts instead of the few parts that are actually clicking. And they are clicking like hell.


Excellent post, agreed 100%.

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12-03-2006, 12:07 PM
  #23
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I really think Cullen is handling the duties just fine and we do not need a replacement as of right now.

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12-03-2006, 01:21 PM
  #24
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perfect time for Conroy as he is again starting to produce and also brings a defensive element to the forward core not only playing regular shifts but also playing center on PK1 or PK2.

1) 3 goals and 7 assists in last 15 games.
2) 2.4 mil owed this year and next - UFA aafter freeing time for the kids
3) 6ft2 200 lbs brings size with some speed
4) puck distributer first, scorer second. Fit perfect between Shanny and Prucha
5) wont cost roster player, possibly Rachunek or Malik and pick

take the above as pro's or con's, but he does fit a need, he is only here for a year and a half, and on paper would work great between Shanny and Prucha.

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12-03-2006, 02:25 PM
  #25
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Few responses:

1. In general I think the team is looking for a first/second line center, not necessarily strictly a first line center.

2. Nylander is in most cases a second line center, playing with Jagr gives him the production of a first line center. But let's not kid ourselves, Nylander was in the ballpark of a second line center for most of his career before clicking with Jagr in NY.

Nylander is good but let's not overrate him either.

He should stay as the first line center because he plays well with Jagr, but by himself I wouldn't call him a first line center. The magic on that line is Jagr, Straka and Nylander are good players who happen to look great next to him.

3. A second line player is going to be easier and cheaper to get that a first. Barring some great deal appearing, that's the direction you go.

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