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GDT: Blackhawks Vs Predators 12-2-06

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Old
12-03-2006, 04:50 PM
  #26
Pepper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
Hamhuis levelled Ruutu with an open-ice hit at the blue-line, Seabrook was just looking out for his guy. Not much of a fight, quick takedown.
Uhhuh, Hamhuis stuck out his leg and went knee-on-knee against Ruutu who has had problems with his knees.

Hamhuis should have been thrown out.

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12-03-2006, 04:53 PM
  #27
triggrman
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Hamhuis buried his shoulder in Ruutu's chest, watch it again.

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12-03-2006, 05:27 PM
  #28
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I saw this play on Tivo and honestly, it looked more like Ruutu shifted body position and put his knee at risk than Hamhuis aiming for it. Hamhuis is not a dirty hitter based on history-- he doesn't need to be.

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12-03-2006, 05:33 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Hamhuis buried his shoulder in Ruutu's chest, watch it again.
Agreed. Hamhuis didn't flare out his knee to either direction and the vast majority of the contact was shoulder to chest. It was just a really good hit. He came in with a very wide, strong base. He shouldn't be punished for that.

It should be the forwards responsibility to go around players with established leg position, not the hitters responsibility to make sure his knees are tucked in/touching so that a surprised skater doesn't doesn't accidentally make contact with his knees.

You can watch it all you want on hockeyfights.com. Every time I watch that, I chuckle at Pepper's comment. Thrown out for what exactly? Just because he is a china doll doesn't mean that opposing players should skate around on eggshells for fear that Tuomo might be caught off guard and skate into their knee because Ruutu wasn't paying attention.

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12-03-2006, 05:34 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Uhhuh, Hamhuis stuck out his leg and went knee-on-knee against Ruutu who has had problems with his knees.

Hamhuis should have been thrown out.
Not even close. Clean hit, took Ruutu square on--who should have had his head up, to begin with.

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12-03-2006, 07:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
Not even close. Clean hit, took Ruutu square on--who should have had his head up, to begin with.
Are you guys watching the same video as Iam. I have watched it like 20 times in slow mo and it definately was a knee on knee hit. I don`t necessarily think it was intentional, but to say it was a clean hit is rediculous. You can clearly see that it was the knees that first made contact (followed by the shoulders), and the way Ruutu`s leg went flying back there was alot of force behind it. I absolutely hate those types of hits (regardless of intent), but I love the reaction from Brent.

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Old
12-03-2006, 07:37 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Are you guys watching the same video as Iam. I have watched it like 20 times in slow mo and it definately was a knee on knee hit. I don`t necessarily think it was intentional, but to say it was a clean hit is rediculous. You can clearly see that it was the knees that first made contact (followed by the shoulders), and the way Ruutu`s leg went flying back there was alot of force behind it. I absolutely hate those types of hits (regardless of intent), but I love the reaction from Brent.
i hadn't seen the hit as closely as i have now...and i admit that ruutu got some of hamhuis's knee...but i don't think there was any intent in it, and i think most of it came through ruutu realizing too late that hamhuis was coming and trying to avoid the hit.

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12-03-2006, 07:53 PM
  #33
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I also don`t think there was any intent. The problem that we have though is that guys are leading with their knees (as opposed to intentionally sticking them out at the last second, which is much dirtier). You can see it clearly on this hit. So when the guy getting hit tries to avoid it, his straight knee collides with the bent (and braced) knee coming towards him. In that situation the bent knee always wins, and the straight knee usually gets damaged.

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12-03-2006, 08:51 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
I also don`t think there was any intent. The problem that we have though is that guys are leading with their knees (as opposed to intentionally sticking them out at the last second, which is much dirtier). You can see it clearly on this hit. So when the guy getting hit tries to avoid it, his straight knee collides with the bent (and braced) knee coming towards him. In that situation the bent knee always wins, and the straight knee usually gets damaged.
I have a problem with this outlook though. It puts undue responsibility on the hitter. It forces him to keep his feet perfectly level, which is a chore in and of itself.

Hamhuis used the same stance that carried him from skating backwards to skating towards Ruutu. He didn't change the stance for 20 feet. At some point, the onus has to be on the puck carrier to pay attention to the world around him.

It's one thing to lean the knee forward right before the collision occurs, but this was clearly not the case. It's unreasonable to think that Hamhuis would pull his lead leg back (he was not leading with his knee as much as he was leading with his leg) because this would throw his balance askew. And he would either be out of position in his hit attempt (causing a great scoring chance for Chicago) or he would expose himself to injury because he'll lose the force he's carrying.

There are a lot of dangerous things on the ice. At some point, the responsibility to protect himself has to fall on the puckcarrier so long as you don't have blatant attempts to injure or quick changes in the hitter's knee placement. This hit contained none of the carelessness or malicious behavior seen in knee-on-knee hits and all of the foolishness of skating blind through traffic areas.

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12-03-2006, 10:58 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Hamhuis buried his shoulder in Ruutu's chest, watch it again.
Would you like me to take a screen shot of it and post it?

I'll get it to where Hamhuis' knee hits Ruutu's.

Press pause at 35 seconds and you see Hamhuis lead with his leg. Press pause at 36 seconds and you see their knees meet.

A chest on chest hit does not result in Ruutu spinning around like a top.

I've never seen Hamhuis do anythin like that before. Don't know why he would do it now?

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Old
12-03-2006, 11:57 PM
  #36
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Ruutu was skating with his head down, and deserved to get popped. Nobody (except maybe Marchment) deserves to have their knee smashed by another player's knee. Hamhuis wasn't trying to take out his knees, but he still hit him knee first. Scary play, and I wouldn't call it a totally dirty hit, but it's still not totally clean either.

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Old
12-04-2006, 12:02 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I have a problem with this outlook though. It puts undue responsibility on the hitter. It forces him to keep his feet perfectly level, which is a chore in and of itself.

Hamhuis used the same stance that carried him from skating backwards to skating towards Ruutu. He didn't change the stance for 20 feet. At some point, the onus has to be on the puck carrier to pay attention to the world around him.

It's one thing to lean the knee forward right before the collision occurs, but this was clearly not the case. It's unreasonable to think that Hamhuis would pull his lead leg back (he was not leading with his knee as much as he was leading with his leg) because this would throw his balance askew. And he would either be out of position in his hit attempt (causing a great scoring chance for Chicago) or he would expose himself to injury because he'll lose the force he's carrying.

There are a lot of dangerous things on the ice. At some point, the responsibility to protect himself has to fall on the puckcarrier so long as you don't have blatant attempts to injure or quick changes in the hitter's knee placement. This hit contained none of the carelessness or malicious behavior seen in knee-on-knee hits and all of the foolishness of skating blind through traffic areas.
I have been in Hamhuis` position many times. You are going for the hit, crouching with your knee out. There is a short period of time where you know you are not going to get as much of the guy as you want to. Right then you have two choices: pull in the knee and cut your losses, or leave it out there and see how much of him you can get. Now, the first option really is what should be done in this situation (if we are going by the "respect your opposition" philosophy). The second option is much more reckless and can have differing outcomes depending on what the guy does: the guy can get out of the way and you miss him completely, he can brace himself for the hit which results in a good collision, or he can partially get out of the way which usually results in a knee on knee collision. The problem is that usually the player getting hit makes this decision in a split second, and it is not always the right one (like Ruutu in this situation). The hitter, on the other hand, has more time to react, and the result of the collision is on his shoulders. If he misses the guy, he looks like a fool. If he hits the guy, he looks great. And if he only gets the knee of the guy, he looks dirty. If Hamhuis chooses the reckless option, thats fine (lord knows I chose that one more often than not), but really the outcome of the collision is a result of his decision to leave his knee out there go fishing, and the blame should lie solely on him.

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Old
12-04-2006, 01:22 AM
  #38
Pepper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Agreed. Hamhuis didn't flare out his knee to either direction and the vast majority of the contact was shoulder to chest. It was just a really good hit. He came in with a very wide, strong base. He shouldn't be punished for that.

It should be the forwards responsibility to go around players with established leg position, not the hitters responsibility to make sure his knees are tucked in/touching so that a surprised skater doesn't doesn't accidentally make contact with his knees.

You can watch it all you want on hockeyfights.com. Every time I watch that, I chuckle at Pepper's comment. Thrown out for what exactly? Just because he is a china doll doesn't mean that opposing players should skate around on eggshells for fear that Tuomo might be caught off guard and skate into their knee because Ruutu wasn't paying attention.
What a load of rubbish. Watch Hamhuis left leg, he sticks it out very far and makes direct contact with Ruutu's left knee (right knee from that tv-angle).

The fact Ruutu tries to avoid Hamhuis' left leg put his balance on one skate and there fore the contact from upper body spins him around to the ice. That however doesn't make the knee-on-knee contact any less severe.

5+game would have been totally appropriate for that one, you don't stick your leg out like that.

EDIT: Here's the pic, anyone can see that Hamhuis sticks out his left leg (and has the weight on the other leg)



Last edited by Pepper: 12-04-2006 at 01:57 AM.
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Old
12-04-2006, 01:37 AM
  #39
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Well I had this whole big post about how I agree we didn't look like the superior team and Mason was shaky and we're back to looking for too many highlight reel passes instead of taking the shot, but as I got to the end I came up with 2 problems we seem to have...

I think we have 2 big problems. We seem to play up or down to our competition. And we don't have that killer instinct we had against Detroit (which, I suppose goes hand in hand with playing to your competition). Monday would be a great time to get that killer instinct back. When we get the lead, no matter when it is in the game, just bury them and make the other teams play our game.

We played great against Detroit. And when we got the lead, we kept going and just crushed them. We don't seem to play like that against the teams at the bottom of the standings. There seems to be less effort and a mentality that we're so good that if we just "turn it on" for one shift we'll score and win the game anyway so it doesn't matter if we don't play a full 60 minutes.



Radulov skates funny. When he's hustling to get back to the bench, he looks like a deer on ice. No goals, but he got an assist on Weber's goal and even got some PP time.

Weber laid a huuuge hit on someone in the corner, it was great. And a nice blast from the point that got through for the goal.

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Old
12-04-2006, 02:17 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What a load of rubbish. Watch Hamhuis left leg, he sticks it out very far and makes direct contact with Ruutu's left knee (right knee from that tv-angle).

The fact Ruutu tries to avoid Hamhuis' left leg put his balance on one skate and there fore the contact from upper body spins him around to the ice. That however doesn't make the knee-on-knee contact any less severe.

5+game would have been totally appropriate for that one, you don't stick your leg out like that.

EDIT: Here's the pic, anyone can see that Hamhuis sticks out his left leg (and has the weight on the other leg)


I think your photo only proves that it was in fact shea webers fault. he put his stick out, and hamhuis was just tyring to avoid the stick. crazy shea.

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Old
12-04-2006, 06:48 AM
  #41
triggrman
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BS....stop it at when the contact is made and you'll see Hammer's shoulder hit Ruutu.

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12-04-2006, 09:53 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
BS....stop it at when the contact is made and you'll see Hammer's shoulder hit Ruutu.
It doesn't matter, the fact is that his knee makes a contact at Ruutu's knee as well as Hamhuis is clearly leading with his left leg.

Dirty hit.

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12-04-2006, 10:32 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
It doesn't matter, the fact is that his knee makes a contact at Ruutu's knee as well as Hamhuis is clearly leading with his left leg.

Dirty hit.
he lead with his knee in that picture because he was skating into him, at impact his shoulder clearly hits Ruutu square. I have seen much worse knee to knee when the upper body is not in play, and one player is using a leg to defend. Hammer was in the process of bringing his entire body.
Hammer isn't a dirty player..

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12-04-2006, 10:49 AM
  #44
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Watch it in slow-mo. The first thing that makes contact is the knees. I have no idea how to put screenshots up from a video, but watch it for yourselves. The shouder doesn`t make contact until Ruutu is already being spun around by the knee contact.

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12-04-2006, 11:08 AM
  #45
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the Knee makes contact first. thats fact. Hamhuis does hit ruutu with his shoulder. This is also a fact. Dirty hit? I don't think so. Its really all about opinions though. IMO its a judgement call.

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12-04-2006, 12:14 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Watch it in slow-mo. The first thing that makes contact is the knees. I have no idea how to put screenshots up from a video, but watch it for yourselves. The shouder doesn`t make contact until Ruutu is already being spun around by the knee contact.
If the knees did hit first it was a fraction of a second before a full body hit. And my point is that Hamhuis was going in for a full body hit , not just sticking his knee out trying to slow him down. Similar to his hit in my avatar...
It is unfortunate if Ruutu get's hurt in this collision but there is no intent, and I fail to see that as dirty. And for what it's worth I give kudos to Seabrook for jumping in to defend him, in particular after going with Tootoo earlier.

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12-04-2006, 12:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
I have been in Hamhuis` position many times. You are going for the hit, crouching with your knee out. There is a short period of time where you know you are not going to get as much of the guy as you want to. Right then you have two choices: pull in the knee and cut your losses, or leave it out there and see how much of him you can get. Now, the first option really is what should be done in this situation (if we are going by the "respect your opposition" philosophy). The second option is much more reckless and can have differing outcomes depending on what the guy does: the guy can get out of the way and you miss him completely, he can brace himself for the hit which results in a good collision, or he can partially get out of the way which usually results in a knee on knee collision. The problem is that usually the player getting hit makes this decision in a split second, and it is not always the right one (like Ruutu in this situation). The hitter, on the other hand, has more time to react, and the result of the collision is on his shoulders. If he misses the guy, he looks like a fool. If he hits the guy, he looks great. And if he only gets the knee of the guy, he looks dirty. If Hamhuis chooses the reckless option, thats fine (lord knows I chose that one more often than not), but really the outcome of the collision is a result of his decision to leave his knee out there go fishing, and the blame should lie solely on him.

Having watched the video, I agree with Chelios above in that the hit wasn't as clean as I (being a Preds' fan) would have liked it to have been. That said, I don't believe at this this time, given Dan's career upto now, that Dan is a "dirty" player. In my opinion, he made a mistake.

Now, if I was Colin Campbell, and this being Dan's first offense, it would be an automatic two-game suspension for a knee-on-knee hit. It is the hitter's responsibility to ensure that they do not lead with the knee and Dan did. I had the same opinion regarding Witt's kneeing of a Columbus (I think) player last year.

David

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Old
12-04-2006, 12:40 PM
  #48
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Nobody is saying that Hammer is a dirty player. Just that he made a very questionable hit.

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12-04-2006, 04:45 PM
  #49
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf View Post
he lead with his knee in that picture because he was skating into him, at impact his shoulder clearly hits Ruutu square. I have seen much worse knee to knee when the upper body is not in play, and one player is using a leg to defend. Hammer was in the process of bringing his entire body.
Hammer isn't a dirty player..
That's what I'm saying, it's not like he's leg whipping him or sticking his knee out intentionally to hit Ruutu, it just happens.

Not a dirty hit.

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12-05-2006, 01:08 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
That's what I'm saying, it's not like he's leg whipping him or sticking his knee out intentionally to hit Ruutu, it just happens.

Not a dirty hit.
It's a dirty hit if you extend your leg so far out to make sure the opponent can't pass you.

Nobody's saying Hamhuis is a dirty player but the hit was illegal and dirty. There's no excuse to stick your leg that far out.

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