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Since so many of you think that fighters/enforcers don't belong...

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Old
12-11-2006, 11:21 AM
  #26
Fletch
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The debate is, Jackson...

would the enforcer stop the elbow to Jagr's head? When Orr was in the lineup, for the most part, I didn't see any difference. It did seem as though games were more physical (which may not necessarily be a good thing). For me, it's a tough call. I understand where players often come from as the mentality when we all grew up was enforcers were needed. Gretz had Semenko riding shotgun, or McSorley in the background. You had guys patrolling the ice protecting their players. We heard it so much. But in today's game, does it really work? I can't say for sure and can't say that if an enforcer was in the game that for the most part the Rangers' players would be treated any differently.

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Old
12-11-2006, 11:29 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
would the enforcer stop the elbow to Jagr's head?
It's a valid question Fletch but when I see Demitra essentially stating as fact that the hits to the head by Neill and Volchenkov wouldn't happen with the Boogey man dressed, I tend to side with the NHL'er comment.

I'd rather have someone on the bench who can stick up for his teammates than have him in dress clothes and watch your team get abused.

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12-11-2006, 11:36 AM
  #28
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The thing I like about an enforcer who takes a regular shift is that he can pursue those involved in trying to hurt our skill guys. As it stands now Renney knows that sending Orr out there is a calculated risk.

I understand that the kind of player I'm looking for is VERY hard to find, at least as far as the Rangers are concerned.

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12-11-2006, 11:45 AM
  #29
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I hear you Jackson...

although we do still see rough stuff even in the presence of the tough guys, so I don't know how much of what Demitra says is actually a 'fact'. He feels better with an enforcer by his side. It's natural. You'd feel a lot better walking through a bad neighborhood with a cop than alone too. Perhaps getting rid of the instigator rule is the way to go, but I can remember many games in the late 90s when Langdon was patrolling the ice, and I can't remember a time when we talked so much about other players taking liberties on this team's stars, like Gretzky, Leetch and others, which happened even though the Rangers dressed one of the better fighters in the league at that time. We can argue that he wasn't used properly, but he still dressed, and he still skated, and there was still a problem.

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12-11-2006, 11:53 AM
  #30
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Orr to me is a specialist at this point.

He goes out there to do one thing when the team needs it.

However the team is not going to need it every night.

Does he have a place on the team? Yes.

But it's not an everyday spot in the lineup.

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Old
12-11-2006, 12:03 PM
  #31
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On a side note, anyone else itching to see Shanny get his first Ranger fighting major? He's good for about 3 a year at this point and I thought he was going to get his first against Grier, but Grier didn't want any of that. I don't know why but I just dislike Grier as a player for some reason.

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Old
12-11-2006, 12:07 PM
  #32
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Fletch...

I agree about Langdon and to this day, I'm still annoyed at the treatment Gretzky got without anyone coming to his aid. I do think Langdon did his job when given the ice but he was only one guy when teams had two or three "tough guys". The Devils would have an enforcer plus Turner Stevenson, Scott Stevens and Ken Daneyko. So, Langdon couldn't do it all. It reminded me of the days with Fotiu and Flyers with Holmgren, Kelly, Behn Wilson and the like. One guy just wouldn't make a difference.

Getting back to Demitra, this brings up a point I have made before. If skilled players like him feel more comfortable knowing they've got a guy locked and loaded on the bench to protect you and all you have to do is play your game, don't you think this makes the team better just from his presence?

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12-11-2006, 12:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
On a side note, anyone else itching to see Shanny get his first Ranger fighting major? He's good for about 3 a year at this point and I thought he was going to get his first against Grier, but Grier didn't want any of that. I don't know why but I just dislike Grier as a player for some reason.
Knowing the Rangers luck, he'd break his hand and be out for 8 weeks. But yeah, I'd love to see him go. I remember his first year in the league, I believe he was 18 and got into a fight with BrindAmour and I thought he was going to get killed but he ended up winning the fight.

We need (as well as every other team) to find a young Shanny and all of this discussion about Orr would be over.

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Old
12-11-2006, 12:35 PM
  #34
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Edge...

I've been saying the same thing to myself for weeks now. I thought when the team was struggling a bit and Shanny was frustrated that he'd stand up and get into a fight.

Jackson - I agree with what you say. I think earlier in this thread I said an enforcer's fine - as long as he's a Hollweg who can fight the big boys (at least that would be my preference) - here's exactly what I said: "you'd like a guy that's Orr and Hollweg rolled-up into one".

I do still question the effectiveness, which is my only point. I guess what I'd like is a team full of guys who you don't feel the need to protect all the time (not likely, but it's kind of the style of hockey I like I guess).

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Old
12-11-2006, 12:58 PM
  #35
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Yeah I kind would've liked to see him drop them with Grier.

Shanny in his younger days was just scary at times. Though I don't think that fight at 18 was against Brindamour (Shanny is older and Brindamour wasn't in the league yet.)

And I agree with Fletch, I thought for sure he'd drop them when this team was struggling.

But at 37 going on 38, he's not going to be dropping them forever and at some point 3 fights a year becomes 2 becomes 1 becomes zero.

The guy will never be a pacifist, but I do wonder how many more fights he has in him.

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Old
12-11-2006, 01:10 PM
  #36
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Yeah I kind would've liked to see him drop them with Grier.

Shanny in his younger days was just scary at times. Though I don't think that fight at 18 was against Brindamour (Shanny is older and Brindamour wasn't in the league yet.)

And I agree with Fletch, I thought for sure he'd drop them when this team was struggling.

But at 37 going on 38, he's not going to be dropping them forever and at some point 3 fights a year becomes 2 becomes 1 becomes zero.

The guy will never be a pacifist, but I do wonder how many more fights he has in him.
Trust me Shanny will get a few, hes challenged people at least 3 times(Grier, Dom. Moore and Muir) and was turned down. He also has been involved in many scrums and confrontations. Shanny will get some, he isnt as much of a nutjob as he used to be but hes still a tough feisty player. As for Orr, I think he should play select games, as in Isles, Devils and against teams with enforcers. Like Atlanta(Boulton), Washington(Brashear), Minnesota(Boogard).

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Old
12-11-2006, 01:25 PM
  #37
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Getting old does suck...

my cousin hung out with Shanny in the late 80s/early 90s a couple times and said the guy was nuts (my cousin's a bit nuts too).

He doesn't want to hurt his valuable goal scoring hands at this point.

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Old
12-11-2006, 01:40 PM
  #38
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Some of the points are getting muddled together and misinterpureted. Just because I don't want Orr in the lineup doesn't mean I don't see a tough guy as an asset. I just prefer to go without an enforcer if he is only going to get between 2 and 4 minutes a night... and those minutes are justifiably low. The way the game is played now, you have to roll 4 lines and all 18 skaters have to be competent with the puck. Now if you give me a Neil, Barnaby or a Simon I will be all for him in the lineup.

The catch 22 is that Orr isn't good enough to get quality minutes, therefore he isn't out there that much and is not a deterrant to running our skill guys. He can go out there after some one gets a concusion but at that point it is too late. Shanny is more of a deterrant to that. So is Hollweg. If we have to play him more to be a presence, we will suffer in other areas. So you have to pick your poison. If the Orr crowd is comfortable with that trade-off then I can respect your opinion... just respect the other side's as well. And before the argument includes "protecting Jagr", please point out a case where he needed protection. He is a beast, most of his injuries are groin/muscle pull related, not collison related.

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Old
12-11-2006, 01:45 PM
  #39
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lets say u want orr to play next game vs Phily, who would u sit?

plus, i havent seen orr enforce anything this year

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12-11-2006, 01:51 PM
  #40
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lets say u want orr to play next game vs Phily, who would u sit?

plus, i havent seen orr enforce anything this year
He enforces the philosophy of rolling just 3 lines.

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Old
12-11-2006, 01:57 PM
  #41
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lol

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Old
12-11-2006, 03:47 PM
  #42
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I'm not sure that Orr prevents an elbow.

One thing I do know, however, is that an enforcer sitting on the bench provides our own players with confidence. He also has the ability to stick up for a teammate, which may not always have immediate effects, but it does have substantial effects.

A great deal of this game is mental. Within the team structure, feeling the "team" atmosphere is very important. I've played on a number of squads, both with and without this characteristic, and I've got to say that it correlates highly with the success of your club. Having an enforcer stick up for teammates is by no means the only way that you build a team atmosphere, but it does contribute significantly.

The question is: is Orr the right man? Probably not. For now, however, he's the only man. And because he's the only man you use him when needed. You can't put him in the lineup every game because at an every game basis he's more a detriment than a help.

Well if Orr isn't the right man, then who is? As many have pointed out Chris Neil is the new breed of NHL "enforcer" that every team is going to need to have. A guy that you can put on the 3rd or 4th line, can bang 10 and 10 a year, whilst playing a smart game. He holds much more value to an organization, because you can play him every game. Playing him every game means you're not ****ing with lineups as much as you would an in and out type of guy like Orr. - this is another way that an "enforcer" can impact the atmosphere. Having an enforcer capable of playing a regular shift also means he's patroling more than a 2 min/game guy. If I see a team is only playing a guy 2 minutes a game, I might take a few more liberties because I know that I'm only going to face him (max for 2-3 shifts the game...max!).

Anyways, we're all kind of beating this horse to death:

We have an enforcer, his name is Orr.

Orr isn't ideal, but he's what we have.

We're likely going to need to look somewhere else for a competent tough guy (either Hartford or the UFA market).

...and the new breed of NHL enforcer is much more a complete hockey player than his bretheren of one decade ago.

Good?

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Old
12-11-2006, 04:21 PM
  #43
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Whether one can fight or not or behave like an *** on the ice or not, unless one has mastered the art of skating, his time has passed.

Orr is in no way a deterrent to other teams hitting our players. He is beyond useless.

This notion that it is better to have a no-talent mediocre fighter than not have one is just wrong. It's not a matter of opinion anymore. With the new rules, if you can't skate you're a minus to your team.

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Old
12-11-2006, 05:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'm not sure that Orr prevents an elbow.

One thing I do know, however, is that an enforcer sitting on the bench provides our own players with confidence. He also has the ability to stick up for a teammate, which may not always have immediate effects, but it does have substantial effects.

A great deal of this game is mental. Within the team structure, feeling the "team" atmosphere is very important. I've played on a number of squads, both with and without this characteristic, and I've got to say that it correlates highly with the success of your club. Having an enforcer stick up for teammates is by no means the only way that you build a team atmosphere, but it does contribute significantly.

The question is: is Orr the right man? Probably not. For now, however, he's the only man. And because he's the only man you use him when needed. You can't put him in the lineup every game because at an every game basis he's more a detriment than a help.

Well if Orr isn't the right man, then who is? As many have pointed out Chris Neil is the new breed of NHL "enforcer" that every team is going to need to have. A guy that you can put on the 3rd or 4th line, can bang 10 and 10 a year, whilst playing a smart game. He holds much more value to an organization, because you can play him every game. Playing him every game means you're not ****ing with lineups as much as you would an in and out type of guy like Orr. - this is another way that an "enforcer" can impact the atmosphere. Having an enforcer capable of playing a regular shift also means he's patroling more than a 2 min/game guy. If I see a team is only playing a guy 2 minutes a game, I might take a few more liberties because I know that I'm only going to face him (max for 2-3 shifts the game...max!).

Anyways, we're all kind of beating this horse to death:

We have an enforcer, his name is Orr.

Orr isn't ideal, but he's what we have.

We're likely going to need to look somewhere else for a competent tough guy (either Hartford or the UFA market).

...and the new breed of NHL enforcer is much more a complete hockey player than his bretheren of one decade ago.

Good?

Well said. Most important point is that no Orr is not the ideal...but then again he is all we have. If Demitra feels more protected with Boogard in there...well it only makes sense for the Rangers top guns to feel more protected with Orr in there. Plus...I don't see how he's a deterent. He's not a great skater but he keeps up with the play, dumps the puck in, goes to the front of the net, etc, etc, etc. He won't develop into an enforcer sitting up in the press box, that is one thing that I do know. Also...we all use Neil as an example...but the thing that you all forget is...guess what? Brian McGrattan plays on the line right behind him every single game as well. Also...somebody please tell me how some of the competitive teams in this league run an enforcer who can't skate half as well as Orr out there every night. It's beyond me. To me not only will they always have a role...they will always have an important role and effect on a game

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Old
12-11-2006, 08:47 PM
  #45
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Maybe some of you have noticed but we're starting to see a renewal of the tough guy being thrown onto a scoring line to protect the star.

Brashear played nearly the entire game the other night with Ovechkin and together they were a terror (granted AO is a terror all on his own). Chris Thorburn (who did a bit of scoring in the AHL) is playing on Crosby's line tonight.

Notice that these are guys that can play a little - Brashear is an unmoveable object infront of the net and suprisingly mobile in the corners. Although he's slowed down some in the last few years, he used to be a respectable 10-20 guy.

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Old
12-11-2006, 08:54 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
my cousin hung out with Shanny in the late 80s/early 90s a couple times and said the guy was nuts (my cousin's a bit nuts too).

He doesn't want to hurt his valuable goal scoring hands at this point.
Yes getting old does suck.

I was playing hockey with my buddies and we play pick-up games where we play reasonably physical. Nothing too bad, but we have some fun. Needless to say we also play fight/ goof around.

Dropped the gloves about two weeks back and did something my my left shoulder, still feeling it.

Few years ago that would've bounced right back in a day or two, now I'm sitting here in the office and I feel like somone karate chopped me.

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Old
12-11-2006, 08:54 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Maybe some of you have noticed but we're starting to see a renewal of the tough guy being thrown onto a scoring line to protect the star.

Brashear played nearly the entire game the other night with Ovechkin and together they were a terror (granted AO is a terror all on his own). Chris Thorburn (who did a bit of scoring in the AHL) is playing on Crosby's line tonight.

Notice that these are guys that can play a little - Brashear is an unmoveable object infront of the net and suprisingly mobile in the corners. Although he's slowed down some in the last few years, he used to be a respectable 10-20 guy.
Same goes for Chris Clark on WAS. He plays with Semin and occasionally AO. He's a point a game player now and protects the stars.

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Old
12-11-2006, 09:18 PM
  #48
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Of course you also have Tucker playing with Sundin or other skilled guys in Toronto. The Ducks played Fedoruk with Selanne earlier this year. The Isles play Simon with Yashin and Blake until Yash got hurt...now he plays with Kozlov. Asham plays with Bates.

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Old
12-11-2006, 10:32 PM
  #49
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Few years ago that would've bounced right back in a day or two, now I'm sitting here in the office and I feel like somone karate chopped me.
Ain't age wonderfull?

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Old
12-11-2006, 11:34 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Of course you also have Tucker playing with Sundin or other skilled guys in Toronto. The Ducks played Fedoruk with Selanne earlier this year. The Isles play Simon with Yashin and Blake until Yash got hurt...now he plays with Kozlov. Asham plays with Bates.
too bad orrs skating cant keep up with any of our top 3 lines. Id love for us to get someone who can be physical and play. I wonder if Lessard would be an upgrade over Orr

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