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Since so many of you think that fighters/enforcers don't belong...

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Old
12-12-2006, 12:40 AM
  #51
BigE
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Old? ****.

I'm nursing a mild concussion and swollen shin from a sparring session I had last Tuesday...and I'm younger than young.

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Old
12-12-2006, 12:56 AM
  #52
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Physical play allowed Pitt to get back into the game with the Caps tonight. The Pens got really amped and back to win after being down 4-0....but it was not just one or two guy. Their whole team got into it and backed each other up.

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12-12-2006, 01:06 AM
  #53
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anyone see todays pens and caps game??? the fight sparked the pens, down 4-1 to win 5-4 is amazing. This is why fighting is still in the nhl, good to see ruutu get beat like a punching bag.

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Old
12-12-2006, 07:45 PM
  #54
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Orr in there tonight

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12-12-2006, 08:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Ain't age wonderfull?
I'm not old my any stretch (28), but I can certainly feel the difference from when I was 24 or 25...21-18.

It just takes that little bit longer to recover or I have just that little bit less energy.

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12-13-2006, 11:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
And before the argument includes "protecting Jagr", please point out a case where he needed protection. He is a beast, most of his injuries are groin/muscle pull related, not collison related.
Thank the hockey gods he didn't hurt his groin after getting hit in the face by a Hatcher elbow.

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12-13-2006, 12:06 PM
  #57
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The fighter/enforcer doesn't belong. A player needs to do more than just fight or goon it up in order to be an effective hockey player in the new NHL. A player needs to be able to skate. And with the extra emphasis placed on specialty teams, a player needs to do more than just fight.

I don't think anyone would be opposed to a guy who could fight being on this team as long as he does more than just that. And our current option doesn not do that.

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12-13-2006, 12:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I'm not sure that Orr prevents an elbow.

One thing I do know, however, is that an enforcer sitting on the bench provides our own players with confidence. He also has the ability to stick up for a teammate, which may not always have immediate effects, but it does have substantial effects.

A great deal of this game is mental. Within the team structure, feeling the "team" atmosphere is very important. I've played on a number of squads, both with and without this characteristic, and I've got to say that it correlates highly with the success of your club. Having an enforcer stick up for teammates is by no means the only way that you build a team atmosphere, but it does contribute significantly.

The question is: is Orr the right man? Probably not. For now, however, he's the only man. And because he's the only man you use him when needed. You can't put him in the lineup every game because at an every game basis he's more a detriment than a help.

Well if Orr isn't the right man, then who is? As many have pointed out Chris Neil is the new breed of NHL "enforcer" that every team is going to need to have. A guy that you can put on the 3rd or 4th line, can bang 10 and 10 a year, whilst playing a smart game. He holds much more value to an organization, because you can play him every game. Playing him every game means you're not ****ing with lineups as much as you would an in and out type of guy like Orr. - this is another way that an "enforcer" can impact the atmosphere. Having an enforcer capable of playing a regular shift also means he's patroling more than a 2 min/game guy. If I see a team is only playing a guy 2 minutes a game, I might take a few more liberties because I know that I'm only going to face him (max for 2-3 shifts the game...max!).

Anyways, we're all kind of beating this horse to death:

We have an enforcer, his name is Orr.

Orr isn't ideal, but he's what we have.

We're likely going to need to look somewhere else for a competent tough guy (either Hartford or the UFA market).

...and the new breed of NHL enforcer is much more a complete hockey player than his bretheren of one decade ago.

Good?
The problem I got with dressing Orr is that when we do, we got no 4th line. That 10 minutes of great hustle we got from the 4th line last year is gone. The 3rd line don't hit much, the top 2 literay don't hit at all.

The results are that we are less physical with Orr then we are without him. I mean 8 minutes with a 4th line with Prucha on it means 16 minutes combined of Holly and Hall. With Orr on, we get 3x3 minutes =9 minutes of Orr-Holly-Hall.

I don't know much about fighting in hockey, have done it seriously once and almost fainted when I slammed my hand into a helmut... Though in my world I would like to see some toughness from Adam Hall. He aint good enough to stick around without providing Strudwick type of enforcement, IMHO.

He don't have to fight Derek Boogard, but he should be able to take on Hatcher. He have shown that he can defend himself, but is unwilling to defend our captain. That I don't like.

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Old
12-13-2006, 01:27 PM
  #59
Larry Melnyk
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The problem I got with dressing Orr is that when we do, we got no 4th line. That 10 minutes of great hustle we got from the 4th line last year is gone. The 3rd line don't hit much, the top 2 literay don't hit at all.

The results are that we are less physical with Orr then we are without him. I mean 8 minutes with a 4th line with Prucha on it means 16 minutes combined of Holly and Hall. With Orr on, we get 3x3 minutes =9 minutes of Orr-Holly-Hall.

I don't know much about fighting in hockey, have done it seriously once and almost fainted when I slammed my hand into a helmut... Though in my world I would like to see some toughness from Adam Hall. He aint good enough to stick around without providing Strudwick type of enforcement, IMHO.

He don't have to fight Derek Boogard, but he should be able to take on Hatcher. He have shown that he can defend himself, but is unwilling to defend our captain. That I don't like.
OLA--Exactly what I've been saying here and for quite awhile..Colton Orr's presence hurts this team becasue he does nothing AND, even if it is Renney's fault, he hurts the 4th line, especially our only hitter Hollweg..We are indeed less physical with Orr and his occasional fight....That's because nobody else on the top 3 lines except Shanny hits with any purpose or bad intent---ever...So, in physical games you have to use Hollweg---and he got 30 seconds in the 3rd period last night...So quit whining REnney and do something..

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Old
12-13-2006, 06:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger View Post
...And I think a lot of people have that perception because Jagr or Straka haven't been elbowed in the head yet or been taken out of a game....
um...yeah. Thanks for the jinx.

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Old
12-13-2006, 07:03 PM
  #61
True Blue Bleed Blue
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
OLA--Exactly what I've been saying here and for quite awhile..Colton Orr's presence hurts this team becasue he does nothing AND, even if it is Renney's fault, he hurts the 4th line, especially our only hitter Hollweg..We are indeed less physical with Orr and his occasional fight....That's because nobody else on the top 3 lines except Shanny hits with any purpose or bad intent---ever...So, in physical games you have to use Hollweg---and he got 30 seconds in the 3rd period last night...So quit whining REnney and do something..
Well guess what? Blame it on the make up of this team. It is an absolute shame that no one on the top 3 lines hits. Also...not sure how you figure that were less physical with Orr

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12-13-2006, 07:30 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The fighter/enforcer doesn't belong. A player needs to do more than just fight or goon it up in order to be an effective hockey player in the new NHL. A player needs to be able to skate. And with the extra emphasis placed on specialty teams, a player needs to do more than just fight.

I don't think anyone would be opposed to a guy who could fight being on this team as long as he does more than just that. And our current option doesn not do that.
Exactly.

And those players aren't easy to find.

If a player can drop em, thats an asset to his overall game, not his whole game.

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Old
12-13-2006, 07:54 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Exactly.

And those players aren't easy to find.

If a player can drop em, thats an asset to his overall game, not his whole game.
Yes...however you need to have one guy who is a specialist at dropping em and masters the physical game.

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12-13-2006, 07:56 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Yes...however you need to have one guy who is a specialist at dropping em and masters the physical game.
Nope. That provides nothing. It stops nothing. If a player cannot play a regular shift, he has no place in my lineup.

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Old
12-13-2006, 08:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Nope. That provides nothing. It stops nothing. If a player cannot play a regular shift, he has no place in my lineup.
Dude of course he needs to be able to take a regular shift...but he needs to be able to drop the gloves especially well. One of your guys does that is. Ask Demitra. Look around the league.

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12-13-2006, 08:17 PM
  #66
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A fighter belongs on the team, two even, but they need to be able to Skate, fight, and score, Orr does nothing on this team, except severly limit the amount of time the 4th line gets, and that hurts the team as a whole.

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Old
12-13-2006, 08:19 PM
  #67
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A fighter belongs on the team, two even, but they need to be able to Skate, fight, and score, Orr does nothing on this team, except severly limit the amount of time the 4th line gets, and that hurts the team as a whole.
Then find a guy who can play and enforce better

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12-13-2006, 08:24 PM
  #68
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That's not my job, it's up to Sather. If it was up to me the team would have been built differently, but it's not, and we have to watch what we have, and there are better options out there than Colton "No Skate" Orr.

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12-13-2006, 08:32 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Dude of course he needs to be able to take a regular shift...but he needs to be able to drop the gloves especially well. One of your guys does that is. Ask Demitra. Look around the league.
Having that player still WILL NOT STOP A JERK from taking a run at our players if he wants to.

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Old
12-13-2006, 08:38 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Having that player still WILL NOT STOP A JERK from taking a run at our players if he wants to.
No but at least we will respond and show em that they will have to pay a price to do so...something many players won't be willing to do

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12-13-2006, 08:45 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
No but at least we will respond and show em that they will have to pay a price to do so...something many players won't be willing to do
No one responded last night, and Orr didn't make anyone pay a price.

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Old
12-13-2006, 09:23 PM
  #72
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No one responded last night, and Orr didn't make anyone pay a price.
Again it comes down to the fact that he wasn't given the right chance to do so. In the end if the coach feels something should be done...something will be done...just ask Bob Hartley.

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12-13-2006, 10:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Again it comes down to the fact that he wasn't given the right chance to do so. In the end if the coach feels something should be done...something will be done...just ask Bob Hartley.
Nice job. You just referenced the most POS coach in all of hockey.

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Old
12-13-2006, 10:17 PM
  #74
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Nice job. You just referenced the most POS coach in all of hockey.
I'm referencing the fact that Glen Hanlon decided to just jump Hartley's team. Nice job understanding the comment.

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Old
12-13-2006, 10:20 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
I'm referencing the fact that Glen Hanlon decided to just jump Hartley's team. Nice job understanding the comment.
Please. Hartley always goons it up when his team is down.

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