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What does the D look like when it's healthy?

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Old
01-11-2007, 09:45 AM
  #76
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Clearly you guys are looking simply at last nights game alone when you make your comments on Hainsey. He made 1 timely TO which lead to the game tieing goal and all of a sudden he's on your ****list. Apparently leading the team in goals and assists, combined with a very small salary is extremely disappointing to you. He's the only guy on D who can bring it up the point and create some offense, along with strong play on the PK and PP.

Again I've made posts like this in the past and I still can't seem to comprehend where a lot of these hate spewing remarks come from.

Since you quoted me in your post, I guess I'll try to clarify my meaning: no, I wasn't just looking at the St. Louis game. And no, I wasn't spewing hate (at least, I didn't think I was!). I like Hollywood's potential and he has had some good games, both this year and last. He's also had some stinkers, and that night wasn't the first time a careless give-away led to a goal - he's done it before in the exact same spot! I said I was disappointed with him, and I am. If I thought he just sucked, I wouldn't be expecting more from him. I don't expect much from Bubba and I'm pleasantly surprised when he contributes anything. What I'm saying is: off his performance of last year, I expected/hoped Hainsey would be a more consistant contributer, this year. He's not. I don't think I'm being too greedy by wanting him to become a more dependable defenseman. That's where my "hate spewing remarks come from."

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01-11-2007, 10:25 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Since you quoted me in your post, I guess I'll try to clarify my meaning: no, I wasn't just looking at the St. Louis game. And no, I wasn't spewing hate (at least, I didn't think I was!). I like Hollywood's potential and he has had some good games, both this year and last. He's also had some stinkers, and that night wasn't the first time a careless give-away led to a goal - he's done it before in the exact same spot! I said I was disappointed with him, and I am. If I thought he just sucked, I wouldn't be expecting more from him. I don't expect much from Bubba and I'm pleasantly surprised when he contributes anything. What I'm saying is: off his performance of last year, I expected/hoped Hainsey would be a more consistant contributer, this year. He's not. I don't think I'm being too greedy by wanting him to become a more dependable defenseman. That's where my "hate spewing remarks come from."

Yes I apologize for quoting you in particular pete. You responded to Robert's first post and then I quoted you. So it was in the wrong place and I wasn't calling you out persay.

While there are some things I agree with, there are the same amount of things in which I do not. Hainsey in particular has played the most games this season than any other of his seasons in the NHL, and on the part of consistently contributing I think he's done a pretty good job. He leads the D in points and is getting assists and on occasion goals usually every other night. Just last week he was on a point scoring streak which I believe hit 5-6 games. He has had some giveaway's yes, and the last game was a particularly bad one, but lets be honest, who hasn't in their career. Many goals are scored on mental lapses. I know some of you saw the game between the Oilers and Stars, I believe it was about a week ago where someone on the stars had a wide open breakaway to an empty net with about 20 seconds left and he had the puck jump over his stick and fell his way to the ice, meanwhile the oilers recovered and scored to tie the game with about 2 seconds left. Mistakes are made by everyone in this league, and you just have to push past them, which is what they are trying to do right now. That's what the new NHL is all about, these new crazy rules are resulting in some crazy giveaways combined with crazy goals.

And that's the end of that chapter.


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01-11-2007, 10:30 AM
  #78
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Yes I apologize for quoting you in particular pete. You responded to Robert's first post and then I quoted you. So it was in the wrong place and I wasn't calling you out persay.

No offense taken, Lynk. You state your case quite well.

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01-11-2007, 04:59 PM
  #79
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COLUMBUS, OHIO - The Columbus Blue Jackets have placed left wing Rick Nash on Injured Reserve retroactive to January 5 and defenseman Duvie Westcott on Injured Reserve retroactive to January 6, club President and General Manager Doug MacLean announced today. Nash suffered a back injury at Anaheim on January 5 and is day-to-day, while Westcott suffered a concussion at San Jose on January 6 and will be sidelined indefinitely.

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01-11-2007, 10:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
this post is positively nonsensical. dude, if the offense is THAT busy effing up life for the defense, I'm perplexed at how they manage to find time to score AT ALL. The offense is the defense's problem? if the offense scores more, the defense and goaltending will work itself out? how does favoring a lame limb make the whole a stronger entity? how does that make sense? five of the top six penalty minute getters are forwards, so? we have 12 of them for godssakes. Yes, Hainsey and Foote play more minutes than they seem capable of many nights ... but how the HECK is that the offense's fault? seriously, Mr Mac, untangle that verbal blight of a post and help a sister out?
Sorry to confuse you Pluckfur. (and apparently Robert as well)
The coaches have repeatedly been quoted on the subject in the press, so I'll just summarize it here for you. Our penchant for penalties is ruining "the flow" as Hitchcock recently called it. It is also causing Footer and Hainsey to rack up large amounts of ice team. Tired defenseman, whether because of killing penalties or due to the forward's inability to keep the puck in the offensive zone, is wearing this team down. (And a reminder again, the statistics show that it is our forwards getting the bulk of the penalties. Dumb ones I might add.) A "good offense," ie, getting a lead early, controlling the flow, and being able to continue to score, is good defense.

I would also add this about our goaltending, it's a confidence game. There have been so many games this season where we couldn't hit the back of the net to save our lives, and that begins to wear on the confidence of the team. We've seen this collapse in confidence over and over this season. (And the Blue Jackets have a history of collapsing as a team.) I hope Ken can restore it, but the best way to do it is to put the puck in the net. It's a lot easier to defend a lead than it is to try and overcome one.


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01-11-2007, 10:29 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
Sorry to confuse you Pluckfur. (and apparently Robert as well)
The coaches have repeatedly been quoted on the subject in the press, so I'll just summarize it here for you. Our penchant for penalties is ruining "the flow" as Hitchcock recently called it. It is also causing Footer and Hainsey to rack up large amounts of ice team. Tired defenseman, whether because of killing penalties or due to the forward's inability to keep the puck in the offensive zone, is wearing this team down. (And a reminder again, the statistics show that it is our forwards getting the bulk of the penalties. Dumb ones I might add.) A "good offense," ie, getting a lead early, controlling the flow, and being able to continue to score, is good defense.
All teams are getting a ton of penalties.....cept for a few. Winning in the NHL 101: GM, head coach, goalie, defense, offense........ The object is not outscore your own goalie to win, stop the goals and it only takes one to win....

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01-11-2007, 10:41 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
Sorry to confuse you Pluckfur. (and apparently Robert as well)
The coaches have repeatedly been quoted on the subject in the press, so I'll just summarize it here for you. Our penchant for penalties is ruining "the flow" as Hitchcock recently called it. It is also causing Footer and Hainsey to rack up large amounts of ice team. Tired defenseman, whether because of killing penalties or due to the forward's inability to keep the puck in the offensive zone, is wearing this team down. (And a reminder again, the statistics show that it is our forwards getting the bulk of the penalties. Dumb ones I might add.) A "good offense," ie, getting a lead early, controlling the flow, and being able to continue to score, is good defense.
Well, you certainly confused me, Mr. Mac. I suppose you can quibble semantically for the best offense being a good defense... or vice versa (and the one I've heard Hitch talk about in the past) the best offense being a good defense. All great scoring chances (breakaways or otherwise) usually start with good/hard defensive plays (and lest we forget, playing defense is also a responsibility of the forwards.) Either way, the undisciplined penalty taking must STOP. In the past four games (the three out west and one here at home) the most aggregious penalty takers have been Foote, Modin, Vyborny, and Chimmer. the vast majority of penalties will probably always be taken by forwards as they outnumber dmen 2:1 most nights. I do not for one second believe that scoring 10 goals a night wouldn't make us an undefeated team... it also isn't ever going to happen that way... so improving everyone's game defensively AND installing systems that allow the offense and defense to score productively is the answer. I know being a Blue Jacket fan might have misaligned your perceptions, Mr Mac.... but just because you are a defenseman, doesn't mean you're not allowed to score goals and produce offense. Ask Lidstrom, or Pronger, or JM Liles, or Macinnis, or Rafalski, or Berard, or Neidermayer, or Phaneuf, or Souray, or Leech....

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01-11-2007, 11:15 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
All teams are getting a ton of penalties.....cept for a few. Winning in the NHL 101: GM, head coach, goalie, defense, offense........ The object is not outscore your own goalie to win, stop the goals and it only takes one to win....
"All" teams getting a ton of penalties? Interesting sentiment, but not supported by the facts if your point was to compare us to other teams.

Penalties this year so far:
Cbj 700
Colorado 464
Detroit 520
Minnesota 487
Nashville 621

The other three worst teams we share the bottom of the standings with:
Chicago 655
St. Louis 688
Phoenix 754

Columbus is the fourth most penalized team in the league so far.
Anaheim (!) is #1
Washington
Phoenix
then us CBJ.
In 2005 we finished the 8th most penalized team.

Your observation about goalies sounds like something my hockey coach would have said in high school. Great speech, but doesn't help analyze our weaknesses relative to what should be expected (as compared to other teams/goalies). "League Average Goaltending" is a concept most players and coaches would recognize. Would that the CBJ had "average" goaltending, then our record would not be so dismal. 2 to 3 goals let in per game should keep us in the hunt in MOST games. The problem is that our offense is currently averaging just 2.558 goals per game (last year we were at 2.62), while our defense is giving up 3.047 per game. So yes, the goal IS to outscore what a good goalie on average will let in, because if you don't, then on average you won't win.

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01-11-2007, 11:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
Well, you certainly confused me, Mr. Mac. I suppose you can quibble semantically for the best offense being a good defense... or vice versa (and the one I've heard Hitch talk about in the past) the best offense being a good defense. All great scoring chances (breakaways or otherwise) usually start with good/hard defensive plays (and lest we forget, playing defense is also a responsibility of the forwards.) Either way, the undisciplined penalty taking must STOP. In the past four games (the three out west and one here at home) the most aggregious penalty takers have been Foote, Modin, Vyborny, and Chimmer. the vast majority of penalties will probably always be taken by forwards as they outnumber dmen 2:1 most nights. I do not for one second believe that scoring 10 goals a night wouldn't make us an undefeated team... it also isn't ever going to happen that way... so improving everyone's game defensively AND installing systems that allow the offense and defense to score productively is the answer. I know being a Blue Jacket fan might have misaligned your perceptions, Mr Mac.... but just because you are a defenseman, doesn't mean you're not allowed to score goals and produce offense. Ask Lidstrom, or Pronger, or JM Liles, or Macinnis, or Rafalski, or Berard, or Neidermayer, or Phaneuf, or Souray, or Leech....
The number of penalties SHOULD be due to Time On Ice. Which is why it is odd that SOME of our forwards are racking up so many penalties vs our defensemen (who get much more time). What is true, however, is that mid-ice hooking penalties are more often called than interference (which is typically a defensive penalty). But by definition, you don't have the puck when you hook. So hooking is the direct result of not controlling the puck, making good passes, etc.

I would say that "most great scoring chances" begin with puck control. That is the system that needs to be installed. Unfortunately, it is also a skill which several of our forwards do not seem to possess, and I doubt this skill can be taught in a month or even a year. Rather, it must be drafted and/or signed. I suspect this is why Coach Ken is bringing up the talent from the AHL. He's assessing what he has to work with. And that lead me to conclude that big changes are in store for this roster.

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01-11-2007, 11:44 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
"All" teams getting a ton of penalties? Interesting sentiment, but not supported by the facts if your point was to compare us to other teams.

Penalties this year so far:
Cbj 700
Colorado 464
Detroit 520
Minnesota 487
Nashville 621

The other three worst teams we share the bottom of the standings with:
Chicago 655
St. Louis 688
Phoenix 754

Columbus is the fourth most penalized team in the league so far.
Anaheim (!) is #1
Washington
Phoenix
then us CBJ.
In 2005 we finished the 8th most penalized team.
Nice job Mr Mac I thought we were ok on # of penalties this year.
Now I'm depressed, -at least Jody has fewer PM's this year.

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01-11-2007, 11:52 PM
  #86
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Nice job Mr Mac I thought we were ok on # of penalties this year.
Now I'm depressed, -at least Jody has fewer PM's this year.
FIRE KOHARSKI!!! (and Watson, and, Leggo, and...)

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01-12-2007, 12:17 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
Your observation about goalies sounds like something my hockey coach would have said in high school. Great speech, but doesn't help analyze our weaknesses relative to what should be expected (as compared to other teams/goalies). "League Average Goaltending" is a concept most players and coaches would recognize. Would that the CBJ had "average" goaltending, then our record would not be so dismal. 2 to 3 goals let in per game should keep us in the hunt in MOST games. The problem is that our offense is currently averaging just 2.558 goals per game (last year we were at 2.62), while our defense is giving up 3.047 per game. So yes, the goal IS to outscore what a good goalie on average will let in, because if you don't, then on average you won't win.
Good point, but a point made for many years by many posters.....don't assume defense comes before offense just to stop goals....there is a goalie back there too. Offense starts from defense....quick, smart, skilled defenseman who know how to maintain possession by advancing the puck with success to the forwards is where it all begins.......

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01-12-2007, 12:23 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
"All" teams getting a ton of penalties? Interesting sentiment, but not supported by the facts if your point was to compare us to other teams.

Penalties this year so far:
Cbj 700
Colorado 464
Detroit 520
Minnesota 487
Nashville 621

The other three worst teams we share the bottom of the standings with:
Chicago 655
St. Louis 688
Phoenix 754

Columbus is the fourth most penalized team in the league so far.
Anaheim (!) is #1
Washington
Phoenix
then us CBJ.
In 2005 we finished the 8th most penalized team.
And penalties against is something like 2nd most. Have to compare all the stats if you're going to compare them at all. Any stat can be used to support any side of any argument... that's what I learned on the first day of statistics in high school. Danny Gare said this, and considering he had a decent career and does know what he's talking about, I believe him: Bad teams get bad penalties and good teams get calls going their way. Amazing that the most penalized teams are 4 of the worst teams in the league.

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01-12-2007, 12:42 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
The number of penalties SHOULD be due to Time On Ice. Which is why it is odd that SOME of our forwards are racking up so many penalties vs our defensemen (who get much more time). What is true, however, is that mid-ice hooking penalties are more often called than interference (which is typically a defensive penalty). But by definition, you don't have the puck when you hook. So hooking is the direct result of not controlling the puck, making good passes, etc.

I would say that "most great scoring chances" begin with puck control. That is the system that needs to be installed. Unfortunately, it is also a skill which several of our forwards do not seem to possess, and I doubt this skill can be taught in a month or even a year. Rather, it must be drafted and/or signed. I suspect this is why Coach Ken is bringing up the talent from the AHL. He's assessing what he has to work with. And that lead me to conclude that big changes are in store for this roster.

Generally, this post is far less confusing to me, thank you Mr. Mac. Hooking is penalty a player takes because he isn't in a position to play/take the body of the player with puck possession. If you have good defensive position, and play the body instead of resorting to using your stick... you will not take a penalty and this is true whether you're a forward or a defenseman. Hooking is definitionally a "defensive" penalty because you DO NOT HAVE THE PUCK. So even if I were to concede that the offensive player here is at fault...it is a result of that offensive player's DEFENSIVE play and not "the offense" itself.

Defensemen log a lot of minutes but not so many more than your top wingers do, and only extremely rarely do they cover more ice at greater speeds than your forwards do. Again, the stupid penalties we're taking have to stop, no doubt about that...and this goes for both our D and O. Period.

No skill can't be improved on/ taught to young players coming into he league( or even to veteran players.) I find your contention otherwise to be specious. Danny Fritsche is a perfect example...he had fine hands when he was drafted...then proceded to lose any touch he ever had under Gallant. Nash has great hands and vision and we are only beginning to see that since Hitch took over. Overall the passing skills of our team are far greater than have been shown. Passing is an indvidual skill, but for that skill to translate into goals for the team, the Feds/Nash/Vyborny/Zherdev/Fritsche pass has to be received and finished with a goal. That we need to dump any of our forwards because they "can't" or will never learn to pass and that we need to start over and draft "passers" is irrational.


Last edited by Pluckfur: 01-12-2007 at 02:49 AM.
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01-12-2007, 12:53 AM
  #90
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We're 2nd in the league in power play opportunities (260) and we're 1st in the league in power play opportunities per game (6.05). We're also 2nd in the league in times shorthanded (253) and we're first in the league in times shorthanded per game (5.88).

We're 9th in the league in home power play % and we're 29th in the league in road power play %. That in itself is one of our major problems, if not the biggest of all.

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01-12-2007, 01:01 AM
  #91
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We're 2nd in the league in power play opportunities (260) and we're 1st in the league in power play opportunities per game (6.05). We're also 2nd in the league in times shorthanded (253) and we're first in the league in times shorthanded per game (5.88).

We're 9th in the league in home power play % and we're 29th in the league in road power play %. That in itself is one of our major problems, if not the biggest of all.
Well, that brings us all the way back around to needing a PP QB to run the show. I'd take either a dman or forward who could get this job done, i'm not about to be picky. It's either that or we dump Agnew and try to draft a new Special Teams coach

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01-12-2007, 06:07 AM
  #92
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Well, that brings us all the way back around to needing a PP QB to run the show. I'd take either a dman or forward who could get this job done, i'm not about to be picky. It's either that or we dump Agnew and try to draft a new Special Teams coach
If there is absolutely no other reason that I am looking forward to a "healthy" Berard, this is it. Say what you will, that boy can get the puck from the point, through traffic, and on goal. Can't deny his will power, so here' hoping.

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01-12-2007, 07:58 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hugg View Post
We're 2nd in the league in power play opportunities (260) and we're 1st in the league in power play opportunities per game (6.05). We're also 2nd in the league in times shorthanded (253) and we're first in the league in times shorthanded per game (5.88).

We're 9th in the league in home power play % and we're 29th in the league in road power play %. That in itself is one of our major problems, if not the biggest of all.
Nice work... how we can we be so good on the PP at home vs the road is beyond me, but over the years the Jackets have made me question just about every stat there is......

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01-12-2007, 07:59 AM
  #94
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If there is absolutely no other reason that I am looking forward to a "healthy" Berard, this is it. Say what you will, that boy can get the puck from the point, through traffic, and on goal. Can't deny his will power, so here' hoping.
I've never been a Berard defenseman fan but I'll tell you, I'd give my left (insert) to have him back right now.....

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01-12-2007, 08:55 AM
  #95
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If there is absolutely no other reason that I am looking forward to a "healthy" Berard, this is it. Say what you will, that boy can get the puck from the point, through traffic, and on goal. Can't deny his will power, so here' hoping.
Amen brother. I hope BB still has it. I'd love to see his TOI around 12-15 minutes a night, with 5 minutes of that on the PP.

This season after roughly 40 games, our top 4 scoring D look like this:
Hainsey(43) 4g 16a 3pp
Eriksson(41) 0g 15a 0pp
Klesla(39) 5g 6a 1pp
Westcott(23) 4g 6a 2pp

Total 13g 43a 6pp

Compare that to Berrard last season at this point:
Berrard(44) 12g 20a 11pp

BB had as many goals as our top 4 combined have in nearly as many games this year, and twice as many PP goals as our top 4 combined have.

He was also -29, which is god awful, but I bet Hitch can use his strengths while minimizing the exposure to his weaknesses.


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01-12-2007, 09:29 AM
  #96
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He was also -29, which is god awful, but I bet Hitch can use his strengths while minimizing the exposure to his weaknesses.
Agreed....you won't ever see that again, even from Berard under Hitch.

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01-08-2008, 02:26 PM
  #97
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This is a funny thread since they never reached a point where everyone was healthy again.
For the record it would have looked like this:

Klesla - Foote
Hainsey - Berard
Eriksson - Westcott
7th D man- Tollefsen
waived- A. Johnson


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01-08-2008, 06:25 PM
  #98
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No way Tollefsen sits...he brings alot more than defense back there...besides his hitting he is not afraid to drop the gloves and stick up for this teammates and goalie. We absolutely need his presence back there. He has been the surprise of the year for me.

Unfortunately if everyone is healthy I think AJ gets the seat but its just a numbers game as he has played terrific as well the whole 'D' has for the most part. Of course it all starts with saves the goalie should make and the forwards helping out.
If everyone had ever gotten totally healthy last season you would have been totally wrong. Tollefsen would have sat or been sent down, and so would AJ. There are only 6 starting spots and no way Foote, Klesla, Hainsey, or Berard would not have played healthy. Westcott was in higher favor of the organization then, then he is now, and would have played over both. Ericsson was popular with the organization while he was here and likely would have played over both. So if everyone had ever gotten healthy agian you would have been wrong, as both Tollefsen and A.J would have had to either sit or be sent down. The only reason I think Tollefsen might have been sent down instead of A.J is he didnt have to clear waivers, but neither would have played had everyone gotten healthy.

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