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01-18-2007, 11:24 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
but Lang continues producing in the playoffs, that's what counts.
Honestly ....
Really ... You don't think anything else counts?
So if Lang gets 5 points in five games, and plays terrible defense and he's -6 and the Wings lose 4 games to 1, as long as he's got his five points, that's what counts ...

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01-18-2007, 11:26 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
He's not discernably different from Datsyuk in any defensive regard. .
That's 100 percent false

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01-19-2007, 06:41 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by SmartestManOnEarth View Post
No.
I wouldn't go that far.

Look, I like Datsyuk. I'd like him to stay in Detroit if possible.

But, fact is, until he produces like a top line center in the playoffs, I don't see how Detroit can afford to keep him.
True.

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However, Datsyuk's terrible scoring slump has little to do with what I think of Lang.

I don't think Lang has been very good. I think his offense is nothing more than expected. But his defense, his skating and turnovers negate that offense.
True, but not completely. Lang compared to his teammates was good and his stats compared to his teammates were good. His bad plays were not not the factor in the POs, while they were and are during the season. But I do not think anyone is saying that Lang was a dominant force in the playoffs. I think the fans are just giving him the credit where he deverves it.

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If you get too wrapped up in stats, you say crazy, ignorant things like "Look at Cujo's goals against average against Anaheim. He was great! How can you blame him?"
Some fans make a mistake when they focus on the stats and the goalies' stats. In the playoffs goalies' stats have always to be compared to his counterpart (head to head) in order so see the whole picture.

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It's why I think that Zetterberg, despite scoring six goals in six games, reall wasn't that impressive.

Granted, I'm glad he got those goals. If for no other reason than to get the monkey off his back.

But hockey comes down to a lot more than goals and assists.
True. Despite the 6 goals Zetterberg struggled in the PO.

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If you've played hockey, you know that there are games when you score goals and rack up assists and played like a dog.

Then you have other games where you played fantastic, but it didn't show up on the scoreboard.

Does this excuse Datsyuk in anyway?
Hell no.
Very good point.

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01-19-2007, 07:15 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Ar Pharazon View Post
i'm reserving my oppinions on all of them till the playoffs..

if Hudler can repeat his GR playoff form, we'll probably win the cup..

his 5 assists in a 5/4 win in game 7 against Manitoba is the stuff legends are made of. If that was in the NHL and not the AHL he'd be a massive star now..

however i think that a line of Dats, Zetts and Hudler would be scary good....awesome skill level
How much TOI was he getting there?

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01-19-2007, 07:24 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I don't think anyone is painting Lang out to be Mr. Clutch. He just seems that way because we're comparing him to Datsyuk, who has obviously proven absolutely nothing in the postseason, especially offensively with his 3 goals and 12 assists in 45 career playoff games, and no playoff goals since 2001-2. Lang, with his 7 goals and 8 assists in 18 career Detroit playoff games, has.
The bottom line is that Dats will quite likely overprice himself no matter whether he performs in the playoffs or not.

So if he goes 1 PPG in PO and asks for 8+ mil - do you think he shall be worth it?

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01-19-2007, 07:50 AM
  #131
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Kopecky update

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...701180332/1128

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Tomas Kopecky , who is out because of a broken left collarbone, has been cleared to ride a stationary bike and use light weights for his legs, but he's still a month away from playing.

He had four breaks in the collarbone (Dec. 14 against the Blackhawks in Chicago). If he were to have a similar injury again, it could end his career.

"I didn't know how serious it was until the saw the X-ray," Kopecky said. "The bone was all over the place."

Regaining strength is Kopecky's main job, but he's still about two weeks from taking off his sling and working on his upper body.

Kopecky has been around the locker room in recent days beginning his workout routine.

"It's boring when you're injured," he said.

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01-19-2007, 08:18 AM
  #132
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For all of Babcocks' talk about making the team better at facing adversity, he sure likes to play it safe. I may be getting ahead of myself here, but the guy doesn't seem to like taking risks. Young players need to face NHL-level challenges in order to develop. The bar has to be raised each step of the way. A quote Babs made during the summer haunts me whenever the subject of the younger players comes up. He said the NHL wasn't a development program - that's what the AHL is for - and you don't bring guys up until they are 100% NHL ready. I don't know how someone becomes NHL-ready if they don't get challenged at an NHL level. You need both.

So back to his adversity spiel. It sounds good, doesn't it? How do increase the adversity a team faces when you always give ice time to guys with seniority (HD calls this consistency or predictability in the case of Lang). I understand the reasoning here - it is sound - but reducing risk in every case even when senior guys aren't producing doesn't increase adversity. It minimizes risk. And perhaps it minimizes risk to the point where you aren't investing a bit more in your future when clearly you need to be doing that. This team will only win by taking some chances now and then, and by captialzing on the errors other teams make when they do so. It's not a godawfully talented team that can just waltz in have their way with their opponents anymore. If you never take risks, you certainly don't appoint a kid as team captain....

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01-19-2007, 11:22 AM
  #133
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Regaining his strength? That's sad news for Kopecky, he never had any strength to begin with, how could he be even weaker?
It's been awhile since I saw a player bounce off so many checks that he himself initiated. Kopecky is like a string bean out there.

His injury has been a blessing in disguise, Kopecky should never be inserted into the lineup over a healthy Jiri Hudler and now even Babcock should be able to identify that. Honestly, even though Jiri isn't geeting a lot of ice time, atleast he knows that he'll be in the lineup every night and I think that's helped him to get some rhythm.

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01-19-2007, 11:46 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Boomhower View Post
\
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His injury has been a blessing in disguise, Kopecky should never be inserted into the lineup over a healthy Jiri Hudler and now even Babcock should be able to identify that.
\
Please. Hudler is doing a decent job now, but at the time Kopecky went down he was playing head and shoulders above Hudler. Kopecky had become a nice checking winger who showed suprisingly good speed and did well on the forecheck. He also hit, mixed it up and played a chippy game. i

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01-19-2007, 12:17 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartestManOnEarth View Post
Honestly ....
Really ... You don't think anything else counts?
So if Lang gets 5 points in five games, and plays terrible defense and he's -6 and the Wings lose 4 games to 1, as long as he's got his five points, that's what counts ...
Dude, it's Robert Lang, that's what he does. That is his role, he's not out there for his defense, Lang continues his ROLE into the post season, while other players don't. That's the main beef with Datsyuk, he can be a Selke winner in the post season but if doesn't produce like his role in the regular season, he's not doing his job.

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01-19-2007, 01:07 PM
  #136
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Interesting blurb from one of the TSN contributers:

Quote:
Gino Reda

1/18/2007 7:12:02 PM

A plus goes to Detroit Red Wings centre Jiri Hudler, who took maximum advantage of minimal opportunity.

In his last two games, he barely saw any game action at all. No one on the team had less ice, and yet he scored in both those games. It makes you wonder what he has to do to get more shifts.

It's already been discussed that two games doesn't register as a trend yet, but I guess someone other that Wings fans are noticing Hudler's lack of IT and interpreting it as unjustified.

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01-19-2007, 01:11 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Dude, it's Robert Lang, that's what he does. That is his role, he's not out there for his defense, Lang continues his ROLE into the post season, while other players don't. That's the main beef with Datsyuk, he can be a Selke winner in the post season but if doesn't produce like his role in the regular season, he's not doing his job.

I know what you're saying about Lang and accepting that "this is what he does." However he was brought in to be a #1 center, maybe #2. If we compare his play to what was expected under the old Wings' regime for a top center (or any top forward)-- it was defensive responsibility. Certainly Feds and Stevie had that expectation and subsequent achievement. Hitchcock broke Modano's mold and made him a new one, resulting in one of the best two-way players in the league. Forsberg fits that mold. Hitch is now trying to re-mold Nash. Why are you giving Lang a free pass?

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01-19-2007, 04:16 PM
  #138
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Babcock can not disrupt the whole team or another line just to give Hudler more IT because he deserves it. Hudler deserves it but he has his role on the team. What Babcock can do, is give him 2-3 shifts on the PP and maybe give him 2-3 shifts with Z and D or Lang's line. I think it is going to happen in the coming games (unless Hudler screws something up very badly).

BTW, has anyone seen Datsyuk or Zetterberg score the goal like Hudler did in his last 2 games?
Not that I am compaining, but I woudl really like to see both Datsyuk and Zetterberg rip one like that. Specially Datsyuk. Last game vs the Preds, Datsyuk had 2-3 very good chances where he shoudl have shot, but he did not. I do not remember what he did, but I do remember he did not shoot when he had to.

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01-19-2007, 05:42 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why are you giving Lang a free pass?
Because Lang wasn't a kid when he was brought in, the team had no intention to mold him into something that he isn't. Lang has played the same way his entire career, there were no stipulations that when he was brought in he was here for defense first, then offense. Besides, like I asked before, what goals did Lang cause that seem to break the back of the Wings during the playoffs since Lang is here that totally discount almost everything he does since points aren't good enough from a player who that's all should be expected of him.

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01-19-2007, 06:30 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Because Lang wasn't a kid when he was brought in, the team had no intention to mold him into something that he isn't. Lang has played the same way his entire career, there were no stipulations that when he was brought in he was here for defense first, then offense. Besides, like I asked before, what goals did Lang cause that seem to break the back of the Wings during the playoffs since Lang is here that totally discount almost everything he does since points aren't good enough from a player who that's all should be expected of him.

Was it the red pills or the green ones that caused this outburst?

Well, I could say there was no stipulation for Stevie to play a two-way game either until Scotty became his coach! But I won't - except I just did, yet I do see your point. You think management understood they weren't getting a real Fedorov replacement, just a partial one on offense?

I actually like Lang, although he seems even slower this year. He does score consistently, and I also understand why HD said what he did about consistency and why a Lang-type player gets more ice than Hudler. Perhaps the question we can't answer is what in the world does Hudler have to do to get the benefit of the doubt? Why not take a chance once in awhile and keep sticking him in challenging situations? I can't see that it would kill the team all that much. The other posters have suggested that some players aren't held to the same standard (good two-player or just plain defensive liability).

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01-19-2007, 06:34 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You think management understood they weren't getting a real Fedorov replacement, just a partial one on offense?
When Lang was brought in the only center we had who was a right hand shot was Stevie. We needed another forward, while Stevie wanted Lindros, Holland decided on Lang. He was a big guy and had a right hand shot and at the time he was leading the league in points.

I truly believe he was brought in to be a secondary scorer, nothing more.

There's different roles for players, Lang's role is to score while a guy like Datsyuk has a role to score and be very defensively aware.

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01-19-2007, 08:03 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
For all of Babcocks' talk about making the team better at facing adversity, he sure likes to play it safe. I may be getting ahead of myself here, but the guy doesn't seem to like taking risks. Young players need to face NHL-level challenges in order to develop. The bar has to be raised each step of the way. A quote Babs made during the summer haunts me whenever the subject of the younger players comes up. He said the NHL wasn't a development program - that's what the AHL is for - and you don't bring guys up until they are 100% NHL ready. I don't know how someone becomes NHL-ready if they don't get challenged at an NHL level. You need both.

So back to his adversity spiel. It sounds good, doesn't it? How do increase the adversity a team faces when you always give ice time to guys with seniority (HD calls this consistency or predictability in the case of Lang). I understand the reasoning here - it is sound - but reducing risk in every case even when senior guys aren't producing doesn't increase adversity. It minimizes risk. And perhaps it minimizes risk to the point where you aren't investing a bit more in your future when clearly you need to be doing that. This team will only win by taking some chances now and then, and by captialzing on the errors other teams make when they do so. It's not a godawfully talented team that can just waltz in have their way with their opponents anymore. If you never take risks, you certainly don't appoint a kid as team captain....
The whole "adversity" thing is a crock anyway. There is no regular season analog for the kind of adversity faced in the playoffs, when the average shift is 10x more intense, the buildings are packed and rocking, and momentum against can quickly get out of hand.

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01-19-2007, 08:09 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
The whole "adversity" thing is a crock anyway. There is no regular season analog for the kind of adversity faced in the playoffs, when the average shift is 10x more intense, the buildings are packed and rocking, and momentum against can quickly get out of hand.
Agreed, the closest thing you're going to get to playoff hockey is being way out of the playoff race and having to build some big winning streaks together to get in. Once you're in a comfortable position, there really isn't that much adversity.

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01-19-2007, 10:44 PM
  #144
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Please. Hudler is doing a decent job now, but at the time Kopecky went down he was playing head and shoulders above Hudler. Kopecky had become a nice checking winger who showed suprisingly good speed and did well on the forecheck. He also hit, mixed it up and played a chippy game. i
If you mean ran into people and fell over, than I guess he hit. He's a better skater than Hudler, but really Kopecky looked in over his head to me, he's AHL calibre.

If Babcock is looking for a checker rather than Hudler, it isn't hard to find one better than Kopecky. Garth Murray was on waivers last week... even Langfeld did more than Kopecky.

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01-19-2007, 10:51 PM
  #145
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If you mean ran into people and fell over, than I guess he hit. He's a better skater than Hudler, but really Kopecky looked in over his head to me, he's AHL calibre.

If Babcock is looking for a checker rather than Hudler, it isn't hard to find one better than Kopecky. Garth Murray was on waivers last week... even Langfeld did more than Kopecky.
Kopecky was doing good work in the corners, and he was showing good speed as well. And he was starting to really annoy the opposition too. Given some time, he could develop into a very good role player. Or we could just toss him and pick up Garth Murray. But Kopecky can be a lot better than Murray, if he comes back strong, keeps working hard, and gets a chance to play. He'll probably have to wait until next year to get that chance, when they could have several forwards coming off the roster and no one from GR to replace them. At worst, he's a serviceable 13th forward.

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01-19-2007, 11:31 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
When Lang was brought in the only center we had who was a right hand shot was Stevie. We needed another forward, while Stevie wanted Lindros, Holland decided on Lang. He was a big guy and had a right hand shot and at the time he was leading the league in points.

I truly believe he was brought in to be a secondary scorer, nothing more.

There's different roles for players, Lang's role is to score while a guy like Datsyuk has a role to score and be very defensively aware.
You think they traded a first, fourth and Fleischmann for the NHL's leading scorer and expected him to be a secondary scorer?

Maybe.

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01-19-2007, 11:33 PM
  #147
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If you mean ran into people and fell over, than I guess he hit. He's a better skater than Hudler, but really Kopecky looked in over his head to me, he's AHL calibre.

If Babcock is looking for a checker rather than Hudler, it isn't hard to find one better than Kopecky. Garth Murray was on waivers last week... even Langfeld did more than Kopecky.
He is easily the hardest hitting forward Detroit has.
Yeah, he's got a lot of work to do, but I think he's a perfect fourth liner right now.
And the kid has some skill to work on and develop.

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01-20-2007, 05:50 AM
  #148
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^^^Of the 3 kids, Kopecky strikes me as having the most potential long-term.
I'll bet there will be a day in few years where we all say, "Thank god Kenny didn't trade that kid."

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01-20-2007, 07:01 AM
  #149
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Columbus game TOI:

Hudler with 5:43
Filppula with 6:35

i.e. down by approximately 3 minutes from the previous game.

That is Babckock's reward system.
Why not bench them straight away?

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01-20-2007, 10:36 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unkempt View Post
Columbus game TOI:

Hudler with 5:43
Filppula with 6:35

i.e. down by approximately 3 minutes from the previous game.

That is Babckock's reward system.
Why not bench them straight away?
Because some icetime is better than no icetime?

After the awful first period when Babcock started putting Filppula on the D/Z line. They would've had their usual icetime but they only got about 1 or 2 shifts in the first period. The constant penalties didn't help either.

Fact of the matter is everyone looked bad with the exception of Hasek last night.

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