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A Slant to Lemieux vs. Gretzky i haven't heard discussed

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Old
11-25-2003, 06:12 PM
  #1
The Patient
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A Slant to Lemieux vs. Gretzky i haven't heard discussed

Lemieux was the best player in the league by 1988, when gretzky was just 27 years old. Lemieux was just 22.

If gretzky was truly a better player than lemieux, shouldn't he have been dominating him playing for a better team, and being in his prime?

 
Old
11-25-2003, 06:19 PM
  #2
JDB3939
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This is a generational thing.

People who grew up watching Howe favor him.
People who grew up watching Orr favor him.
People who grew up watching Gretzky favor him.
People who grew up watching Lemieux favor him.

This is an arguement that will never end.

All 4 are phenominal players. Let's just leave it at that.

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Old
11-25-2003, 06:25 PM
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Maybe I'm just stuck on all the records Gretzky broke.

And I grew up watching 3 of the 4 you listed there.

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11-25-2003, 06:26 PM
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tom_servo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB3939
All 4 are phenominal players. Let's just leave it at that.
No!

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Old
11-25-2003, 06:36 PM
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NJD Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux was the best player in the league by 1988, when gretzky was just 27 years old. Lemieux was just 22.

If gretzky was truly a better player than lemieux, shouldn't he have been dominating him playing for a better team, and being in his prime?
Bottom line:

Gretzky: 1,487 games played
Mario: 889 (so far).

Analyze that any way you want to, but for me, comparing the two is like putting Cy Young (what was) with Sandy Koufax (what could have been).

<JESTER>

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Old
11-25-2003, 07:00 PM
  #6
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You know a lot is always made about Lemieux's injuries, but is no coincidence that 88 is when Gretzky started having his back problems.

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11-25-2003, 07:20 PM
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They've scored almost exactly the same amount of point since the 88-89 season -
Gretzky 1188 (not played since 1999)
Lemieux 1185 (missed 97-98 to 99-00)

ppg is not that close, though: Lemieux 1.98 to Gretzky's 1.65.

Rather arbitrary starting point, though.

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11-25-2003, 07:36 PM
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I've always summed it up this way. Lemieux was the more talented player but Gretzky had the better career.

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Old
11-25-2003, 07:49 PM
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Yep, for years I've been saying Lemieux was the better player, Gretzky had the better career.

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Old
11-25-2003, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
They've scored almost exactly the same amount of point since the 88-89 season -
Gretzky 1188 (not played since 1999)
Lemieux 1185 (missed 97-98 to 99-00)

ppg is not that close, though: Lemieux 1.98 to Gretzky's 1.65.

Rather arbitrary starting point, though.

Overall, Wyane passed Mario's PPG just recently to become the all-time leader.

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Old
11-26-2003, 08:09 AM
  #11
Capt Tuttle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux was the best player in the league by 1988, when gretzky was just 27 years old. Lemieux was just 22.

If gretzky was truly a better player than lemieux, shouldn't he have been dominating him playing for a better team, and being in his prime?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Gretzky's best years (points wise) were when he was 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. Gretzky was dominating at the same age as when Mario put up his best numbers. In fact he had better numbers than Mario by quite a few points. Yes he played for a good team but he got close to 100 points more than his teammates at those ages mentioned.

Mario had the best hands ever but Gretzky saw the game like no other.

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Old
11-26-2003, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Tuttle
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Gretzky's best years (points wise) were when he was 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. Gretzky was dominating at the same age as when Mario put up his best numbers. In fact he had better numbers than Mario by quite a few points. Yes he played for a good team but he got close to 100 points more than his teammates at those ages mentioned.
That's what I was thinking... Wayne was the best player in the league from pretty much the day he stepped on the ice, and was certainly statistically dominant from 20 onwards. Where the 27 age came from is a mystery...

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Old
11-26-2003, 08:33 AM
  #13
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux was the best player in the league by 1988, when gretzky was just 27 years old. Lemieux was just 22.

If gretzky was truly a better player than lemieux, shouldn't he have been dominating him playing for a better team, and being in his prime?
In 1988, Gretzky was still churing out 2 points per game and leading Edmonton to yet another Stanley Cup.

Mario had yet to even play in the post-season.

Gretzky still was dominating him.

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11-26-2003, 08:40 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
In 1988, Gretzky was still churing out 2 points per game and leading Edmonton to yet another Stanley Cup.

Mario had yet to even play in the post-season.

Gretzky still was dominating him.
Well, i think he talk about the player not the team they played on...

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Old
11-26-2003, 08:46 AM
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I always preferred Lemieux because, aside from his being a Penguin, he carried an air of arrogance in his game.

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11-26-2003, 08:50 AM
  #16
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erngueva
Well, i think he talk about the player not the team they played on...
Well, how did Mario pass Wayne in 1988 then?

Wayne was still scoring more than Mario away and destroying him in the success department.

So if Wayne was still more productive and more successful, what exactly did Mario do that made him the best player in the league?

1988-89 was the 1st time Mario had the clear upper hand in the PP/G department. Wayne's struggles with back injuries had begun, he had moved to LA and Mario was taking the next step.

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Old
11-26-2003, 09:05 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
Well, how did Mario pass Wayne in 1988 then?

Wayne was still scoring more than Mario away and destroying him in the success department.

So if Wayne was still more productive and more successful, what exactly did Mario do that made him the best player in the league?

1988-89 was the 1st time Mario had the clear upper hand in the PP/G department. Wayne's struggles with back injuries had begun, he had moved to LA and Mario was taking the next step.
Lemieux had 199 pts that year and won the scoring title. Individually, he was the best player in the league at that point.

 
Old
11-26-2003, 09:10 AM
  #18
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux had 199 pts that year and won the scoring title. Individually, he was the best player in the league at that point.
You are off by a year.

That was the 1988-89 season.

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Old
11-26-2003, 09:31 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux was the best player in the league by 1988, when gretzky was just 27 years old. Lemieux was just 22.

If gretzky was truly a better player than lemieux, shouldn't he have been dominating him playing for a better team, and being in his prime?
It has already been pointed out that, at best, you are out by a year.

It has also been pointed out that the first year Lemieux scored more points (89) was after the infamous trade to LA and after Gretzky had his first back problems. He was also 28 not 27.

In 89 playing with the Kings, Gretz was not "playing for a better team".

The comparison of points to "best" is meaningless and we are all entitled to our own opinions, but the start point of this thread is just wrong.

Besides which, there are those of us who believe that nothing matters after Gretzky left the Oilers.

Having seen them both through their prime, there is no question in my mind who was "better".

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Old
11-26-2003, 09:53 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
I always preferred Lemieux because, aside from his being a Penguin, he carried an air of arrogance in his game.
In a way that is why I preferred Gretzky, I missed the prime years though for both of those players. Really started to watch when I was about 10 around 91-92.

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Old
11-26-2003, 12:23 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Patient
Lemieux had 199 pts that year and won the scoring title. Individually, he was the best player in the league at that point.
And yet, somehow, Gretzky came back to win the Art Ross trophy as the leading scorer 3 times in the next 5 years? Over Mario?

I think Mario MAY have passed Gretz as the "best" player in about 1992, but certainly not before. But that is just an opinion from one who watched them both play their whole careers.

Mario never dominated the entire LEAGUE like Gretzky did. He could dominate games, but never completely blew away the league like Gretzky did numerous times. JMHO.

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Old
11-26-2003, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
And yet, somehow, Gretzky came back to win the Art Ross trophy as the leading scorer 3 times in the next 5 years? Over Mario?

I think Mario MAY have passed Gretz as the "best" player in about 1992, but certainly not before. But that is just an opinion from one who watched them both play their whole careers.

Mario never dominated the entire LEAGUE like Gretzky did. He could dominate games, but never completely blew away the league like Gretzky did numerous times. JMHO.
I don't know about domination, but being involved in 57.3 % of your teams' goals was something Wayne - or anyone else for that matter - never did. Mario did that in 1988-89. 1989-90 was the first year Lemieux suffered from severe injuries (which practically broke his 46-game point streak) and only played in 59 games, you think that might have had something to do with Gretzky winning the Art Ross? Or in 1990-91 when Mario played in 26 games? Or in 1993-94 when he played in a whopping 22 games?

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Old
11-26-2003, 07:15 PM
  #23
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
Here's something for someone to do.


How many points would Mario have if he played the same amount of games as Gretzky.

Isn't there a way to find out? By calculating the points per game and so on?
Easy enough to do...

Mario has 1701 points in 889 games for a 1.913 PP/G clip.

Wayne has 2857 points in 1487 games for a 1.921 PP/G clip.

Even if Mario played the 598 games, he would still fall short of Wayne's mark.

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Old
11-26-2003, 07:20 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
Back problems from what? Standing behind the net for hours at a time while no player dares to hit him cuz 2 or 3 guys would jump him?
I am guessing that you never actually saw Wayne play in the 80's...

Certainly have absolutely no clue what people are referring to when they mention Gary Suter.

Wayne was laid out with severe back injuries that haunted him for much of his career. It led to arthritis which eventually caused his retirement. Gretzky didn't let on how severe his injuries were, it was only after his retirement that he told of his struggles.

Wayne was blessed with better health than Mario, but he sure fought his battles along the way and dealt with injuries and cheap shots like any other player.

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Old
11-26-2003, 07:25 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampe
I don't know about domination, but being involved in 57.3 % of your teams' goals was something Wayne - or anyone else for that matter - never did. Mario did that in 1988-89. 1989-90 was the first year Lemieux suffered from severe injuries (which practically broke his 46-game point streak) and only played in 59 games, you think that might have had something to do with Gretzky winning the Art Ross? Or in 1990-91 when Mario played in 26 games? Or in 1993-94 when he played in a whopping 22 games?
87-88 was the first time that Gretzky dealt with severe injury.

Think that might have contributed to Mario being able to pass him?

Before injuring his back, Wayne hadn't had a season with a PP/G under 2 in 8 seasons. In an 11-year span, it dipped below 2 only twice (once was a 1.95).

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