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Old
12-18-2006, 03:45 PM
  #51
No-Twitch Tabitha
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It isn't just Boyle. Is it a coincidence that the Tragedy Team (21 + 44) are on the ice when we're getting scored against? Frankly I get more nervous when I see the opposition approaching our net when I see one of those numbers standing around in front of it.

Or here's something I remember from Saturday's telecast: The Chief (sober, I think) wondering out loud how the other team always knows that TBL is just going to stick-check. Someone, anyone -- throw a freakin'...I'm not even going to say it.

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12-18-2006, 03:49 PM
  #52
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Move VL4? Now? HELL no. It's looking like he's pulled his finger out and learned what consistency means.

Now if he can keep his ego out of the way of his skates, it should be much better this year.

As for moving Marty...why don't you come a little closer and say that again?

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12-18-2006, 03:51 PM
  #53
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I mentioned in a trade forum thread that TB needs a guy who can throw a hit. Every single team we play is just able to skate head down, full speed into our zone, and it's because they know that literally NO ONE on the other team is going to even attempt to make them pay for it.

It's funny when you see the "check of the night" and it's usually Eric Perrin or Fedotenko who just accidentally skated into someone and knocked them over.

If we could at least stand people up at the blueline and make them actually, you know, WORK to get into our end, those goals might not be so easy to come by for the other guys.

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Old
12-18-2006, 03:54 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanic39 View Post
Ahem... they said number 1 defenseman. Not a guy who's spent considerable time serving popcorn in the EDM pressbox.
You've got to start somewhere...

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12-18-2006, 04:07 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murderworks View Post
I mentioned in a trade forum thread that TB needs a guy who can throw a hit. Every single team we play is just able to skate head down, full speed into our zone, and it's because they know that literally NO ONE on the other team is going to even attempt to make them pay for it.

It's funny when you see the "check of the night" and it's usually Eric Perrin or Fedotenko who just accidentally skated into someone and knocked them over.

If we could at least stand people up at the blueline and make them actually, you know, WORK to get into our end, those goals might not be so easy to come by for the other guys.
YES. Yes. Exactly.

I laugh at the "Check of the Night" anymore. I've resigned myself to the fact that the only people on the team who will even attempt to check (WITH THEIR BODIES, NOT THEIR STICKS) are Perrin, Tarnasty, Roy, Prospal, Marty, and Pratt (I will give him that). Everyone else acts like they don't want to get their sweaters dirty.

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Old
12-18-2006, 04:55 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No-Twitch Tabitha View Post
Move VL4? Now? HELL no. It's looking like he's pulled his finger out and learned what consistency means.

Now if he can keep his ego out of the way of his skates, it should be much better this year.

As for moving Marty...why don't you come a little closer and say that again?
What ego???

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Old
12-18-2006, 05:04 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No-Twitch Tabitha View Post
It isn't just Boyle. Is it a coincidence that the Tragedy Team (21 + 44) are on the ice when we're getting scored against? Frankly I get more nervous when I see the opposition approaching our net when I see one of those numbers standing around in front of it.
I'd like to ennumerate that idea for you. Now granted +/- doesn't tell the whole stroy, but here's the Lightning defensemen +/-. Then tell me who is on the ice when the opponent scores.
Richardson +2
Pratt 0
Kuba +5
Sarich -1
Janik -1
Ranger +1
Boyle -4

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Old
12-18-2006, 05:07 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
We would not be pretty much ok for the cap... we'd be stuck forever. Plus we'd have moved away large chunks of a (for now) winning team, important futures, and it *still* probably isn't something Feaster wants to do anyway. Like I said I (and I would be pretty confident in extrapolating "I" to include the Montreal front office) wouldn't trade Souray alone for Richards, never mind all that other stuff and all the other moves you want to make to try to optimstically squeeze under the cap.

Of course, the Bolts would have no reason whatsoever to do anything but drop their jaws in horror over any such Souray-Richards offer either, that's not really the point. It's just not a fit, not something the Habs have any reason whatsoever to contemplate. If we can't sign Souray next summer and still salivate over a center, we can always use what we budgeted to re-sign him to instead drop $6M on Gomez or some lesser amount on some lesser option. At no point will it become interesting to put together some mega-offer for Richards or Lecavalier. Even if we had any reason whatsoever to believe that the Bolts would be interested. I mean, they've got these guys locked up practically forever, right? The cap will go up ~$2M each year for the next few years, probably. Ride out whatever lumps are in store this year, and they have it made for the future with those guys as the core. They have no need to take any bargain-basement offers to dump them, we have no need to pay even a remotely fair price to get one... it all adds up again to... well, harmless fantasy.
You would prefer to be "stuck forever" with Gomez than with Richards. The fact is that Gomez will command, as you said, 6M$ in a multi-year deal. You probably mean that Souray is reallly important and you're right. Still, the misisng piece on our second line will probably takes us out of the playoffs pretty soon.

Souray for Richards... You really think that the front office wouldn't pull the trigger on that one if we don't consider the cap issues? That is fantasy...

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Old
12-18-2006, 05:15 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
As a Bolt fan I like the trade, I just don't see Montreal moving Souray as he's a huge reason their PP is #1 in the NHL. Is Montreal willing to write off this season to get Richards. I know they could get a relacement in a trade, but chemistry is so important. Probably more realistic to have Tampa keep the 3rd and Montreal keep Souray & make the 1st non-conditional.

Richards

Chipchura
Ryder
#1
Salary Filler (Niinimaa, etc...)
Done, where do we sign?

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Old
12-18-2006, 05:46 PM
  #60
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Considering Richardson is a +2, I don't trust the +/- stat at all.

I don't know why there's a bandwagon to trade Boyle for a bag of pucks. What's one problem this team has? Scoring from the blueline. How is that problem addressed if Boyle is traded? Granted, he has not been very good in his own end (some mistakes magnified by the fact our goalies can't stop a beachball come crunch time)...but this team gets worse without him. Is anyone really comfortable trading Boyle and then having Luke Richardson inserted in to the lineup? I'm not. I'm also not comfortable trading Boyle away for a guy who has been a healthy scratch at times this year. You know, there might be a reason for that. I think some of his mistakes this year are from fatigue. He shouldn't be playing 30 minutes a game, but somewhere in the 20-25 minute range. Just like the big 3 should be playing around 20 minutes instead of 25 minutes a night.

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:31 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokala View Post
I'd like to ennumerate that idea for you. Now granted +/- doesn't tell the whole stroy, but here's the Lightning defensemen +/-. Then tell me who is on the ice when the opponent scores.
Richardson +2
Pratt 0
Kuba +5
Sarich -1
Janik -1
Ranger +1
Boyle -4
Where in the heck did you get those stats? Straight from NHL.com...

Richardson +5
Pratt +5
Kuba +4
Sarich +3
Janik -3
Ranger -6
Boyle -6

I'm not a believer in +/- as an end all be all stat. But comparing players on the same team and factoring in certain factors like ice time and type of ice time, it does show a few things. It does demonstrate the overuse of observational / anecdotal evidence. Richardson / Pratt aren't killing us, it just when they get beat; you remember it for whatever reason. But Dan Boyle scores a few big goals and is pimped by the superior intellectuals over at the 'varsity' board and he can do no wrong, even though he's obviously killing us. And that's not all Boyle's fault as he seems a bit overused...

Anyway, I think it's obvious before we even look at the above stats that this teams problems are special teams and lack of clutchness. Dead last in PK is where our defensemen play there worst (and our goalies don't step up as the most important penalty killer). But since the PP isn't that great either, it's hard to suggest that Boyle is so indispensable.

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:44 PM
  #62
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serious proposal let me know the flaws or why or why not you wouldn't make this deal.

nyr get vinny L

tampa get al montoya, petr prucha, first round pick

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:46 PM
  #63
LastoftheBrunnenG
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Originally Posted by Oceanic39 View Post
No.

Slow start or not, you don't trade a 90 point guy who's under contract for 4 more years (or 5 - whatever) for a 2nd line winger, a dman who's fantastic but will be an expensive UFA in the summer and if he has a brain will test the market, a prospect who projects as a solid 2-way center but not a 1st line, 90 point guy, and a conditional pick.

Montreal gets the best long term player in the deal. TB rents the other top player for a few months.

If Souray were younger and under contract for a few more years, then maybe.

And moving Prospal to center is not an option. He's one step away from being a defense-only winger.

No way.
What you're not factoring is the value of CAP space. There are and will be quality free agents available. Players Tampa could now fit under the cap. It's an opportunity. Of course, it's impossible to know who would actually sign and for how much. But if the team doesn't even make the playoffs we'll have to swallow our pride (more accurately Feaster) and revamp the team. Unless Smaby, Rogers et al grow up overnight, how else is this team going to revamp its defense and stay under the cap? To me, that's the inevitable situation - revamping the defense. So looking for trades that give me cap space and cheap assets are ultimately the way to go. If the above deal was actually offered andI could flip Souray for a young D-man and another 1st or 2nd and then Ryder to a team needing a forward for a #2 and prospect, it might be worth it as you'd add tons of assets and the cap space to sign 2 defenseman and then some. But Montreal won't make the above trade.

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:50 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
Where in the heck did you get those stats? Straight from NHL.com...

Richardson +5
Pratt +5
Kuba +4
Sarich +3
Janik -3
Ranger -6
Boyle -6

I'm not a believer in +/- as an end all be all stat. But comparing players on the same team and factoring in certain factors like ice time and type of ice time, it does show a few things. It does demonstrate the overuse of observational / anecdotal evidence. Richardson / Pratt aren't killing us, it just when they get beat; you remember it for whatever reason. But Dan Boyle scores a few big goals and is pimped by the superior intellectuals over at the 'varsity' board and he can do no wrong, even though he's obviously killing us. And that's not all Boyle's fault as he seems a bit overused...

Anyway, I think it's obvious before we even look at the above stats that this teams problems are special teams and lack of clutchness. Dead last in PK is where our defensemen play there worst (and our goalies don't step up as the most important penalty killer). But since the PP isn't that great either, it's hard to suggest that Boyle is so indispensable.
That's what NHL.com spewed out for me. Odd that it gave such drastically different numbers. I did preface my post that +/- isn't a "be all - end all" type stat.

I think most get on Boyle's case because his screw ups always seem to be so "dramatic", whereas a Sarich, Pratt or Richardson screw doesn't seem so much "highlight" reel as Boyle's.

Hehehe.."varsity" board. I don't remember any IQ test or quiz to prove your hockey knowledge or intelligence to get a sign-in there.

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:51 PM
  #65
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Christmas trade deadline kicks in tomorrow.

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Old
12-18-2006, 06:57 PM
  #66
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Official Trade Proposal Thread-All proposals and speculation here please.

Just to make things easier on everyone (Including myself and HF02) please post all of your trade proposals and rumors in here. Thank you.

(Current posts will be merged momentarily.)

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Old
12-18-2006, 07:58 PM
  #67
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Christmas trade deadline kicks in tomorrow.
And not a Lightning player will be stirring, not even the GM.

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12-18-2006, 08:00 PM
  #68
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Doan and Nagy? Surely you can't be serious.

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Old
12-18-2006, 08:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by GWF82 View Post
Well normally I wouldnt reply to drivel, but I had to.

Simply put, Boyle has THE WORST +/- of the entire "defense". And yes he logs the most minutes, but is that an excuse? I'd have to say Bergeron is at least better defensively and yes, I watch the WC moreso than even the EC as I think the hockey is better. Bergeron has managed to stay on the plus side of things, plays on the PP and is doing so without a Chris Pronger on his side like he had last year. Bergeron can skate and has a decent shot from the point. Boyle is very good at making half moons in the opposite direction of the opponent's goal. Bergeron also has only played 4 less games than Boyle, its not like he's been off the ice half the season so far. He'll end up with 30-35 points on an Edmonton team in the bottom third of team scoring.

I never said "Lets do it!" myself, it was more of a joke than anything, but I still tend to forget how literal this board can be compared to others I frequent. But Boyle should be singled out, as he isnt playing solid defense and is a part of the reason the Bolts are giving up 3.2 goals a game (not the ONLY reason, but part).

Why do people try so hard to put words in each other's mouths? I know I'm guilty at times and I see it all the time as well.
Well, normally I try to stay away from here but seeing something so absurd, I also had to reply.

So we've got Prospal who hasn't scored but once in 22 games, Fedotenko's serving popcorn, Richards isn't living up to his contract, Sarich can't remember what team he plays for, and the coaches keep waiting for the PP to wake up despite not making significant strategy changes and Dan Boyle is the problem "because his plus/minus is the worst?"

In the spirit of Christmas, this is where you'd like to see a Dickens like vision of what life would be like in Tampa without Dan Boyle.

If you think it's bad now, you haven't seen anything yet.

Lightning Nation at its best.

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Old
12-18-2006, 08:26 PM
  #70
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I mentioned in a trade forum thread that TB needs a guy who can throw a hit. Every single team we play is just able to skate head down, full speed into our zone, and it's because they know that literally NO ONE on the other team is going to even attempt to make them pay for it.
There are Dmen on this team who can throw hits but they have been told not to because it's takes them out of play while we're playing the "safe is death" scenerio.

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Old
12-18-2006, 08:44 PM
  #71
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You would prefer to be "stuck forever" with Gomez than with Richards. The fact is that Gomez will command, as you said, 6M$ in a multi-year deal. You probably mean that Souray is reallly important and you're right. Still, the misisng piece on our second line will probably takes us out of the playoffs pretty soon.

Souray for Richards... You really think that the front office wouldn't pull the trigger on that one if we don't consider the cap issues? That is fantasy...
I don't see how any GM in their right mind wouldn't go out and get Richards if he is available and cap space could be arranged.

He is an incredible talent and right now is the time to get him (if he is available at all) because he isn't putting up big numbers.

Souray + Ryder + a pick or marginal player for Richards would be a steal for the Habs.

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Old
12-18-2006, 09:24 PM
  #72
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Yeah, it'd be a steal, but Tampa wouldn't do it. Why don't people understand that? Regardless of his stats right now, regardless of his contract, Richards is a TOP 10 CENTER. HE CAN'T BE HAD FOR "MARGINAL PLAYERS" UNDERSTAND?

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12-18-2006, 10:08 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by thrillhous View Post
I don't see how any GM in their right mind wouldn't go out and get Richards if he is available and cap space could be arranged.

He is an incredible talent and right now is the time to get him (if he is available at all) because he isn't putting up big numbers.

Souray + Ryder + a pick or marginal player for Richards would be a steal for the Habs.
The pick you're talking about is a 1st rounder and the marginal player is Kyle Chipchura, a guy who has already more leadership than your entire team.

BTW, you're right about Richards. I was starting to think that I was crazy.

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12-18-2006, 10:32 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanic39 View Post
Well, normally I try to stay away from here but seeing something so absurd, I also had to reply.

So we've got Prospal who hasn't scored but once in 22 games, Fedotenko's serving popcorn, Richards isn't living up to his contract, Sarich can't remember what team he plays for, and the coaches keep waiting for the PP to wake up despite not making significant strategy changes and Dan Boyle is the problem "because his plus/minus is the worst?"

In the spirit of Christmas, this is where you'd like to see a Dickens like vision of what life would be like in Tampa without Dan Boyle.

If you think it's bad now, you haven't seen anything yet.

Lightning Nation at its best.
Put a defensive defenseman thats a real number one out there with Kuba and Ranger holding up the fort as the offensive defenseman and this team wouldnt look like an episode of the 3 Stooges in their own end. Boyle proves night in and night out he cant handle the minutes and is FANTASTIC at the key turnover at the right time...for the other team. Something is to be said when the guys that our the butt of many jokes for many Lightning fans have a better +/- than the "leader" of the defense. It isnt a be-all-end-all stat, but it is pretty telling as to just who is on the ice at what times and as of late when this team is trying to hold a lead, Boyle has been out there, though apparently mainly in spirit and not physically.

Serious question though, do you take everything said literal? Do you honestly believe people around here would be willing to trade a Boyle for a Bergeron straight up? I'd love to know if you think thats what I'm championing at the moment because it isnt. There are few players I could see Boyle moving for that would be a defensive improvement at this time, but there are definitely players that I'd move him for in a heartbeat. I'd like to know why the "varsity" board truly believes Dan Boyle is a number 1 in the NHL? Care to answer?

I know you probably won't, as it is I agree more fun to run to other boards, take parts of sentences and take things out of context to make others laugh.


Last edited by GWF82: 12-18-2006 at 10:43 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
12-18-2006, 10:49 PM
  #75
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Folks, this thread was not created to give Lightning fans a space to conduct a pissing contest between message boards. If you have a problem with something that is going on at another board, please take those problems there.

On that same note, I will not tolerate jabs at the posters here. Any more references to any poster being intellectually inferior to another will not be tolerated.

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