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The way this team needs to be fixed

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Old
12-01-2003, 11:54 AM
  #26
barto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
The fence is clearly up. Seems to me the two sides are as follows:

1) The team is talented, but the coach, manager, and/or a few schlubs on the team are bringing 'em down

or

2) The team isn't all that talented, and the coach, manager, and/or a few schlubs are doing the best they can to keep themselves from being the Pittsburgh Penguins.

*snip*
Or

3) The team has some great potential, but isn't living up to that potential YET because of (inexperience and/or lack of skills by coaching staff and/or lack of experienced high-end talent due to budgetary constraints and/or ...)

Bart

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Old
12-01-2003, 02:17 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

Either way, MacTavish boosters at this point are becoming nearly blind to the fact that the guy has made some very dumb mistakes lately. The ice time that Georges Laraque gets should be a clear indication that MacTavish is making mistakes on a nightly basis. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. Either does towing the company line.
Once again Mizral spreads his wisdom on us like an infectious disease. Man, do not talk, unless you have any kind of clue about what you are talking about.

Laraque gets about 9 minutes per game... a whopping minute more than Brad May gets...

Is that too much ice time?

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Old
12-01-2003, 02:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Once again Mizral spreads his wisdom on us like an infectious disease. Man, do not talk, unless you have any kind of clue about what you are talking about.

Laraque gets about 9 minutes per game... a whopping minute more than Brad May gets...

Is that too much ice time?
I think he might mean Crucial minutes he is playing rather than the actual number of minute. He should not have seen the ice in the 3rd period against SJ if we are down a goal, unless some fecal matter got disturbed.

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Old
12-01-2003, 04:12 PM
  #29
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[QUOTE=LoudmouthHemskyfan#1]
We're capable of a ton better than we're doing.

Blame falls on management, coaching, and the players.

AND the fans, it is their job to keep the other 3 accountable and provide proper feedback based on situation. That is their contribution to a winning organization.


Uh huh... yup. it was us fans who won the Stanley Cup. Not Gretzky. Loser. Not Messier. They wouldn't have done anything without us. Those Bums. Glad we rode on Sather's ass those many years or the Oilers would have collapsed.


Teams are supposed to steadily improve, not stagnate.

Really? Where's the book on that? Was their a guarantee on the Oiler tickets on the back? Damn that small print. Guess what. If you have 15 teams in a division, the only guarantee is that somebody will come out on top and somebody will come out on bottom. Every team is supposed to improve? Well then, no one loses right?


We have the players to be a 5th place hockey team if we play decent hockey. Just decent hockey.

Uh huh. Based on what? The huge number of stars that we placed into the allstar lineup last year? The Vezina-quality goalkeeping? The fantastic #1 centre that we have?


Said it once, I'll say it a thousand times, accepting mediocrity is sad and a complete joke.

There's something known as reality. Who says 7th place means accepting mediocrity? In Edmonton, us fans have it spoiled rotten. Name me how many hockey teams can boast 5 Cups in the past two decades? I guess we won it before, we should really win it again. Try Toronto. How long has it been for them? Chicago? how about Vancouver? They ever win it?


Everyone should know what this is supposed to be about, and if that isn't the fan's standard of success, well then I feel pretty sad for that fan, because what's the point of the effort if you're willing to accept a team that won't win? Where are the standards? The situation only gets worse as well, because there's no pressure to win.

Yup, the Oilers are 10-11-3. Feel sorry for me. Here's a shocker: I don't expect the Oilers to win the Cup this year. That's right. I didn't at the start of the season and I don't now. I know this may be difficult to believe young dude (everything seems to be black and white) but seasons aren't made of 82-0 or 0-82 seasons. You win some games. You lose some games. You can't expect to win every game. And you can't expect to win the Cup every year.

Did you remember the Oilers winning the first Cup? I do. I remember listening to the radio late at night when I was a kid. Guess what I also remember? The seasons before then when the Oilers beat the Canadiens but lost the next series. Are those Oilers huge disappointments for not winning the Cup against the Islanders that year? Should the team have been dismantled then? Of course not.


Winning is an ATTITUDE. Plain and simple. To be a successful franchise, your management, coaches, players, and fans MUST exude that attitude and expect it, or frankly, you are toast. There's a reason the Lakers are the Lakers and the Clip are the Clip. Same with Yankees vs. Mets.

Really? Wow. I guess that's why Detroit Red Wings never get upset. Ooops. yes they did. Maybe that's why Colorado never loses. Ooops.. Yes they did. Guess they must have lost that winning attitude and is a "Loser" team. Question LMHF... what have you won? I'm curious where this "winning" attitude theory comes from. I certainly don't buy the fans being a part of the winning attitude. The belief stems from the dressing room. Everything outside the dressing room (with the exception of coaches, management etc.) are outsiders. A strong team has the belief inside of them, regardless of what the fans or media or opponents think. And where does my theory come from? From my eight years of coaching competitive soccer.

Its also very slippery slope to go from Winning Attitude to Overconfidence.


Oops last edit:
The reality is that the Oilers are missing their #1 and #2 centre from last year. Their starting goalie has been playing hurt and we're stuck with a rookie netminder (who has been playing great!) We don't have a bonafide 1st line allstar (with the likes of Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Lidstrom) at any position. That's pretty tough to expect a Stanley Cup out of a team like that. In fact, that's pretty tough to expect a playoff spot out of them. My expectations are not "mediocrity", my expectations are for the Oilers to play as best as they can every game, every season. Bottom line: this team is not good enough to win the Presidents Trophy or the Cup. But I do believe its good enough to be a playoff team, and if the youth (Stoll, Hemsky, Torres, Semenov, Bergeron) further succeed my expectations, to be a playoff contender. Otherwise, they should place 7th and get knocked out. Realism != Idealism.


Last edited by Master Lok: 12-01-2003 at 04:17 PM.
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Old
12-01-2003, 05:22 PM
  #30
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Well neo, thanks for taking what I said completely over the top, it's pretty easy to criticize when you're taking liberties like that.

Expectations seem to really mess people up around here. What's with this obsession over expectations? The reality is, there's one standard of success, yes, ONE. If you don't attain that one thing, then you could've done better, plain and simple.

It is the fans job to keep the organization accountable. That is the role we play in winning, because if done effectively, management should be forced to make every effort possible, rather than accept a mediocre team.

I never said anything about but the fans being the sole reason we won the cup, again, nice try at taking it over the top.

Isn't the goal of every team to improve to the point where they can achieve the one goal? Or did I miss that memo...that it's okay and fans should be happy with a team sitting in the middle of the league...yeah musta missed that one.

I stand by this being a 5th place team with decent play most nights.

Why do other teams matter? Are you fans of them? Could you care less if Van-city ever wins a cup? I sure couldn't care less. Doesn't mean just because we've done it before we should be happy. That makes no sense.

Realities can be changed.

No one should be happy with a 10-11-3 record so far, we should've won more. I sure hope the players aren't happy with it, because if they are, they shouldn't be on the team.

AGAIN, it's not about EXPECTING the cup, it's about having ONE standard of success, and not being satisfied until you are there. Doesn't mean you can't like the team, doesn't mean you don't cheer, but how can you simply say "I'm happy with this"? It's mind-boggling!


I didn't say anything about never losing, losing happens, again, nice try.

Success is bred by that attitude, not guaranteed.

But losing is almost certainly guaranteed without it.

I've won plenty in team sports, thank you very much. And every time, there is an attitude, in competitive sports that's the way things go. The team that walks out there KNOWING it will win, does so. Ask guys like Jeter, Schilling, Gretzky, etc. They all have this attitude. And they can deal with losing when it happens because of it.

There is a PROFOUND difference between a winning attitude and "over-confidence". A winning attitude is fueled by confidence and belief in ability to perform and that you are flat-out better than the other guys when at your best. Over-confidence is fueled by the reaction many people have when they experience the fear of success, and compensate for that.


And we come back to expectations. I personally have none, because in competitive sports you frankly shouldn't have them. Instead, I have some things I want from this team, some of which I believe they are readily capable, some of which would require supreme effort and change, doesn't mean I'm going to back away from them, or be completely happy unless they are attained.

Again, nothing said about enjoyment, but fulfillment is something different.

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Old
12-01-2003, 05:39 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Well neo, thanks for taking what I said completely over the top, it's pretty easy to criticize when you're taking liberties like that.

Expectations seem to really mess people up around here. What's with this obsession over expectations? The reality is, there's one standard of success, yes, ONE. If you don't attain that one thing, then you could've done better, plain and simple.

It is the fans job to keep the organization accountable. That is the role we play in winning, because if done effectively, management should be forced to make every effort possible, rather than accept a mediocre team.

I never said anything about but the fans being the sole reason we won the cup, again, nice try at taking it over the top.

Isn't the goal of every team to improve to the point where they can achieve the one goal? Or did I miss that memo...that it's okay and fans should be happy with a team sitting in the middle of the league...yeah musta missed that one.

I stand by this being a 5th place team with decent play most nights.

Why do other teams matter? Are you fans of them? Could you care less if Van-city ever wins a cup? I sure couldn't care less. Doesn't mean just because we've done it before we should be happy. That makes no sense.

Realities can be changed.

No one should be happy with a 10-11-3 record so far, we should've won more. I sure hope the players aren't happy with it, because if they are, they shouldn't be on the team.

AGAIN, it's not about EXPECTING the cup, it's about having ONE standard of success, and not being satisfied until you are there. Doesn't mean you can't like the team, doesn't mean you don't cheer, but how can you simply say "I'm happy with this"? It's mind-boggling!


I didn't say anything about never losing, losing happens, again, nice try.

Success is bred by that attitude, not guaranteed.

But losing is almost certainly guaranteed without it.

I've won plenty in team sports, thank you very much. And every time, there is an attitude, in competitive sports that's the way things go. The team that walks out there KNOWING it will win, does so. Ask guys like Jeter, Schilling, Gretzky, etc. They all have this attitude. And they can deal with losing when it happens because of it.

There is a PROFOUND difference between a winning attitude and "over-confidence". A winning attitude is fueled by confidence and belief in ability to perform and that you are flat-out better than the other guys when at your best. Over-confidence is fueled by the reaction many people have when they experience the fear of success, and compensate for that.


And we come back to expectations. I personally have none, because in competitive sports you frankly shouldn't have them. Instead, I have some things I want from this team, some of which I believe they are readily capable, some of which would require supreme effort and change, doesn't mean I'm going to back away from them, or be completely happy unless they are attained.

Again, nothing said about enjoyment, but fulfillment is something different.
Perfectly said. This is why we complain about our team in downward spirals and gloat when they succeed. We think they should win almost every night and losing isn't welcomed. This is the attitude of champions and winners. You would never find a player with a need for success and a competitive drive be satisfied with sub par efforts. Every person sees the situation differently. One person thinks the coaching needs to change, others think the players need to buck up and perform. both have solid opinions and beliefs - the fact is everyone needs to be better. Personally I think it is nice to see people get pissed off after bad games. They should. Nobody should accept failure.

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Old
12-01-2003, 05:53 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Perfectly said. This is why we complain about our team in downward spirals and gloat when they succeed. We think they should win almost every night and losing isn't welcomed. This is the attitude of champions and winners. You would never find a player with a need for success and a competitive drive be satisfied with sub par efforts. Every person sees the situation differently. One person thinks the coaching needs to change, others think the players need to buck up and perform. both have solid opinions and beliefs - the fact is everyone needs to be better. Personally I think it is nice to see people get pissed off after bad games. They should. Nobody should accept failure.
Thank you Walsher, I know there are fans that have this attitude, and it's fairly easy to pick them out. Agreed on people being mad after losses, fans, and even moreso players. We may disagree on the problem with the team, but we certainly have have the same end aim, and that's what matters.

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Old
12-01-2003, 06:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
It is the fans job to keep the organization accountable. That is the role we play in winning, because if done effectively, management should be forced to make every effort possible, rather than accept a mediocre team.
The Oiler fanbase has accepted that the team will have a 30 million dollar payroll until after the CBA. Beyond that, the playoffs would be nice.

It doesn't mean I'm a bad fan if I accept that as being the case, nor am I a bad fan if I feel the team is a 7th place club.

I think maybe you're confusing the word "fan" with the words "General Manager."

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Old
12-01-2003, 06:34 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
The Oiler fanbase has accepted that the team will have a 30 million dollar payroll until after the CBA. Beyond that, the playoffs would be nice.

It doesn't mean I'm a bad fan if I accept that as being the case, nor am I a bad fan if I feel the team is a 7th place club.

I think maybe you're confusing the word "fan" with the words "General Manager."
Do you disagree that the Oilers are grossly underachieving based on the talent they have currently got on this team? If you think they are doing as well as to be expected than you must not be watching the same team as me. All he and I am saying is that the fans and management should be frustrated with mediocrity and failure when the talent is clearly better than that. Budget aside this team is much better than they are playing. Attititudes like the one you should shared is the reason teams underachieve. I want the Oilers to be the best they can. They were better than Anaheim (IMO) last year and look what Anaheim accomplished. The league is so close right now that teams can overachieve and that is what we are expecting. The whole budget statement is a cop out at this time. The Rangers always have big budgets and look where it gets them. The Oilers can be better - and we all know that. That is the source of our anger and frustration.

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12-01-2003, 06:38 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
The Oiler fanbase has accepted that the team will have a 30 million dollar payroll until after the CBA. Beyond that, the playoffs would be nice.

It doesn't mean I'm a bad fan if I accept that as being the case, nor am I a bad fan if I feel the team is a 7th place club.

I think maybe you're confusing the word "fan" with the words "General Manager."
And isn't that my point? That that attitude is what contributes to our current status? It's not a given that we finish where we do. To quote Homer: That's loser talk.

Nice to know I'm not part of the Oiler fanbase that you're suddenly speaking for LT. I really don't want to be a part of that.

Interesting final sentence, I don't see how you make that leap. And where's management's accountability in that system?

And hey, if I were the GM, well, that's another thread, but i think you know what my answer would be, and I'd gladly back it up if ever given the chance.

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12-01-2003, 06:48 PM
  #36
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I admit I am one of those fans who doesnt accept losing very easily especially if the team I like plays with little or no emotion. Lately the Oilers are playing like a team expecting to lose and that boils my blood. You know what I would settle for the team actually playing consistently hard and ABOVE ALL ELSE SHOWING SOME ATTITUDE. All my 5'6" could push these guys around. Does this make me a numbskull, not at all just a competitive fan and player who doesn't accept losing very easily.

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12-01-2003, 06:53 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Do you disagree that the Oilers are grossly underachieving based on the talent they have currently got on this team?
No, I think they're about where they should be. If Salo was healthy and playing well, and Comrie had been here, then the Oilers might be expected to be where LA is, or possibly on the way to where the Blues are;having said that, as many things that have gone wrong (pp, pk, Brewer) have gone right (Torres, Staios, Conklin). Remember, this isn't the team Lowe/MacT inherited, most of that group are long gone. This is an extremely young hockey team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
If you think they are doing as well as to be expected than you must not be watching the same team as me. All he and I am saying is that the fans and management should be frustrated with mediocrity and failure when the talent is clearly better than that.
Well, yes I am, and honestly have a different viewpoint. I could be wrong, lord knows I have been in the past. However, based on their age, the Comrie situation, losing Reasoner and the struggles of others like Brewer, imo the Oilers are performing at a level that is perfectly in step with their ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Attititudes like the one you should shared is the reason teams underachieve.
Fear of being sent out, being dealt, being sent to the press box are a lot more important to players than anything you and I might say.

As for management and ownership, they haven't lied to the fan base, they've been perfectly honest. Lowe said at the beginning they were in survival mode, and everything he's done as a GM is focused on making it to the CBA with a solid young team. I don't think it makes me a bad fan to agree with that idea, and it doesn't mean I march in lock step with the Oilers management.

What it does mean is that I've accepted that to be reality. If they come back after the CBA with the same mission statement, then imo you'll see many Oiler fans very upset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
I want the Oilers to be the best they can. They were better than Anaheim (IMO) last year and look what Anaheim accomplished. The league is so close right now that teams can overachieve and that is what we are expecting. The whole budget statement is a cop out at this time. The Rangers always have big budgets and look where it gets them. The Oilers can be better - and we all know that. That is the source of our anger and frustration.
I understand your anger and frustration, and since I'm an old guy maybe it's easier for me to say things like "be paitent". However, to me it's counter productive for you to sit 6 months from what may well be an even playing field for all 30 teams and express frustration at what the Oilers management have done.

The Oilers just aren't that good. Period. IF they can keep this group and have it grow up together (ala New Jersey and Ottawa), then you might see some deep runs into the playoffs in the middle and late portions of the decade.

But the Oilers aren't in Ottawa's position. Now yet, anyway.

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Old
12-01-2003, 06:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmminvisiblecola
I admit I am one of those fans who doesnt accept losing very easily especially if the team I like plays with little or no emotion. Lately the Oilers are playing like a team expecting to lose and that boils my blood. You know what I would settle for the team actually playing consistently hard and ABOVE ALL ELSE SHOWING SOME ATTITUDE. All my 5'6" could push these guys around. Does this make me a numbskull, not at all just a competitive fan and player who doesn't accept losing very easily.
I agree 100%. this team must frustrate the &%@@ out of guys like Moreau, Staios, & Smith. Those guys succeed with limited talent and really play with emotion. Did you see Moreau's comments in the paper - you can tell his blood is also starting to boil with some of his team mates. This signifies to me that the coaching is the least of the problems. No heart - even from Mr. Heart himself Ryan Smyth.

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12-01-2003, 06:57 PM
  #39
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Good post LT.

I think people are over looking how badly this team misses Todd Marchant too.

Great on the PK and nothing to sniff at on the dot.

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12-01-2003, 07:00 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
And isn't that my point? That that attitude is what contributes to our current status? It's not a given that we finish where we do. To quote Homer: That's loser talk.

Nice to know I'm not part of the Oiler fanbase that you're suddenly speaking for LT. I really don't want to be a part of that.

Interesting final sentence, I don't see how you make that leap. And where's management's accountability in that system?

And hey, if I were the GM, well, that's another thread, but i think you know what my answer would be, and I'd gladly back it up if ever given the chance.
I don't think my attitude contributes to the Oilers status at all. I buy tickets for Oilers games for my family of 4 about 6 times a season, because that's what I can afford. It used to be more, but I support them as I can.

I don't think it makes me a loser to express that the Oilers aren't a 5th place team, and that they are a 7th-10th place team. Nor does it mean that I'm a bad fan, or even that I'm causing some kind of bad kharma.

No one is going to die from this.

Now, your last statement I found very interesting. Let me ask you, What WOULD you do if you were GM? Not for a day, but for 5 years say. 30 million payroll this season, and then add 2 a year.

Honestly, how would you fix the team?

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12-01-2003, 07:11 PM
  #41
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Lowetide,

Good post, let me be a bit of a devils advocate here, though:

You say Lowe & company have not inherited this team any longer - it is theirs. I agree for certain.

Yet are you saying if the Oilers were to finish in 10th place, you would say Lowe is doing his job well?

I can understand the feeling if Lowe manages to get the Oilers club to a top 8 playoff spot, but anything below that ought to be regarded as a dissapointment, and the managerial staff should be held accountable, no?

Furthermore, you make it sound as if there is a talent problem. If Lowe & MacTavish are not the problem, is it simply that the Oilers do not have the talent to compete with the Kings & Ducks (and the like)?

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12-01-2003, 07:20 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Lowetide,

Good post, let me be a bit of a devils advocate here, though:

You say Lowe & company have not inherited this team any longer - it is theirs. I agree for certain.

Yet are you saying if the Oilers were to finish in 10th place, you would say Lowe is doing his job well?

I can understand the feeling if Lowe manages to get the Oilers club to a top 8 playoff spot, but anything below that ought to be regarded as a dissapointment, and the managerial staff should be held accountable, no?

Furthermore, you make it sound as if there is a talent problem. If Lowe & MacTavish are not the problem, is it simply that the Oilers do not have the talent to compete with the Kings & Ducks (and the like)?
Well, they've been shuffling the deck and getting younger for awhile now, and still racking up 90 point seasons. They missed the playoffs once in there, and I don't think anyone thought Lowe did a horrible job because of it.

This season is a little different,in that teams play each other in the division more often. In the Oilers case, that means more Vancouver/Avs and fewer games against weaker teams. Am I right? I think I am, although you'd probably have that covered better than I would, Mizral.

I don't think it's a talent problem, it's just that they're so damn young. Lowe's done a good job procuring talent for post cba, but it might be a bugger getting through this season. He has to walk a fine line, keep enough talent on the team, while paying out 30 mil, with an eye to the future.

If you're asking me if Lowe miscalculated, then yes, in some instances he did (Isbister should rhyme with albatross).

If you're asking me if I wish Niinimaa was back here, the answer is no.

As talented as Niinimaa is, and I love the guy, Raffi Torres looks like pure gold to me.

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12-01-2003, 07:42 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I don't think my attitude contributes to the Oilers status at all. I buy tickets for Oilers games for my family of 4 about 6 times a season, because that's what I can afford. It used to be more, but I support them as I can.

I don't think it makes me a loser to express that the Oilers aren't a 5th place team, and that they are a 7th-10th place team. Nor does it mean that I'm a bad fan, or even that I'm causing some kind of bad kharma.

No one is going to die from this.

Now, your last statement I found very interesting. Let me ask you, What WOULD you do if you were GM? Not for a day, but for 5 years say. 30 million payroll this season, and then add 2 a year.

Honestly, how would you fix the team?
I never said that you were a loser, this is not a personal argument. I said that being okay with the Oilers consistently finishing below their talent level, accepting it and not demanding better, making excuses for the team, and not being focused on the one goal I pointed out earlier, is loser talk as my buddy H.S. would put it.

You're gonna make me GM for 5 years huh? and BTW, payroll of 36 mil based on the #'s and having a near-zero (but probably profit-making) budget, not 30. So you're gonna gimme that, well, alright, here we go:


1) Mike Comrie: Being that I am the new GM, I bring him in, tell him he's needed here, he's part of what we're building, I will pay him like the top-level talent he is, and I get a contract signed.

2) Coaching: MacT is gone. Period. So are Huddy and Moores. Simpson stays because he is doing a good job handling the forwards, and my new coach would be decided after extensive interviewing of course, but would be someone who isn't one of the Oilers' good ol' boys, and would be a coach with a high all around skill level, but specialized in motivating, developing young players, and offensive systems. I'd hire an assistant that specialized in defensive zone coverage, PK, and defensive systems. Coaches are alot harder to name because there are so many interview/contract/"want the job"/philosophical issues, you can't just pick one out of the hat.

From this point we go to trades, but I'm wondering how you'd like me to approach that, ie. specific players on other teams or general types of player with certain guys from our team going elsewhere. I'll continue after ya let me know.

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12-01-2003, 08:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
I never said that you were a loser, this is not a personal argument.

From this point we go to trades, but I'm wondering how you'd like me to approach that, ie. specific players on other teams or general types of player with certain guys from our team going elsewhere. I'll continue after ya let me know.

I knew you didn't mean me personally.

As for what else to do, I always hate specifics because then it becomes a matter of specific value. For instance, I'd trade Comrie, in a deal for someone like Jeff Taffe or Arnason. Just an idea about where you see this team headed, and what's needed? A veteran dman? New goalie?

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12-01-2003, 08:29 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
1) Mike Comrie: Being that I am the new GM, I bring him in, tell him he's needed here, he's part of what we're building, I will pay him like the top-level talent he is, and I get a contract signed.
Assuming of course that...

A) He wants to be back in Edmonton.

B) His contract demands are anywhere reasonable. If he asks for a 2.5 million dollar base contract with bonuses for goals, assists, minutes played, etc. you're in a for a huge contract.

It might be ok in the short term but the team is going to be screwed as his base contract rises. Oh yeah. Good luck talking with Hemsky's agent when his contract comes around. Just some concerns for you Mr. GM. :p

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12-01-2003, 08:46 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
I said that being okay with the Oilers consistently finishing below their talent level, accepting it and not demanding better, making excuses for the team, and not being focused on the one goal I pointed out earlier, is loser talk as my buddy H.S. would put it.
Hey GM Loudmouth, just curious but what exactly do you believe is the current talent level of this team (3 seed, 4 seed, 5 seed)? You must have a higher opinion of their talent than I. From my eyes this is a 7 seed to 10 seed team in search of an elite skill player. Hemsky looks close but we'll know better in two to three years along with the true championship potential of this hockey team.

Secondly, who do you view as your potential 'dream' head coach and assistants based on your critera (high all around skill level, etc.). Assuming there are no issues or barriers for hiring, who specifically would you choose?

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12-01-2003, 08:57 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Question LMHF... what have you won? I'm curious where this "winning" attitude theory comes from. I certainly don't buy the fans being a part of the winning attitude. The belief stems from the dressing room. Everything outside the dressing room (with the exception of coaches, management etc.) are outsiders. A strong team has the belief inside of them, regardless of what the fans or media or opponents think. And where does my theory come from? From my eight years of coaching competitive soccer.
Well neogeo69, get alot fans at the good ole soccer games do ya? You were sounding somewhat reasonable although I diagree with many of your points until you made the segment of the comment I quoted. Last night 17,839 attended the Rexall cyclinder and most felt like pills for paying the bills as Oiler players skated about in a very ineffectual manner.

Sure winning attitudes can be purchased (i.e. Stars, Avs, Wings, Devils, etc.) but those attitudes can also be developed and an appreciative fan base is a necessary component where the big bucks don't exist. Green Bay comes to mind, as do the Canadiens when the Habs last won the Cup in 1993. Not the most talented team but great goaltending, a winning tradition, good coaching, and a group of players who fed off of themselves, their teammates, their coaching leaders and some never say die fans in Montreal. Vancouver's white towels almost did the trick in 1994. So, respectfully, you are wrong about this particular point.

Currently, U$ Dollar reality miss-controls 80% of NHL's ability to ice 30 genuinely competitive teams who have any real chance of being NHL Champs. The Oilers can only shoot for that 20% slice of the Pie-in-the-Sky and have it come real, if and only if, we all believe. So I think LT and all of those who would settle for less need to give your heads a shake and decide if 2nd best is good enough. If it is enough, then the 'Oil' will finish 9th because 7th was all that was expected of them and what really is the big difference between 9th and 7th and 5th - really?

Those of us who are complusively competitive know the difference. Gut check time is about making grace and not about saving face. Fixation on error free Run & Gun hockey is by definition a contradiction of hockey philosophy. To win without money Edmonton must play tighter less aggressive forechecking patterns with only one man in. I'm not for trapping but I am for winning and if good enough for Sens ... hey they play exciting hockey.

The Cab forward defensive systems employed by the Sens, Philly, Detroit, even Vancouver work because counter punching attacks take less energy and fatigue makes cowards of us all. Given that the skill level varies so dramatically all over the league the clutch and grab style is best executed in the neutral and defensive zones so the Oilers are taking too many penalties because in frustration they hook to often in open ice situations because of their chase style. This is killing the 'Oil' and while other teams obstruct, slash, hook, and hold in close quarters and aren't called the Oilers are caught doing the same things in ice that they themselves open up. It is time for a coaching philosophy change IMHO!

Oh! and if a new CBA doesn't level the ice I don't care if current Edmonton franchise and the NHL stays in our market. Before being relegated to losing year after year I'll find other competitve hockey to enjoy. It will cost me less and will be fairly played and I'll become a fan and regret not the passing of the Oilers from my life. And no I don't believe we have to hang around like 2nd class lackeys and show how bad we are just so we get to retain a half-assed franchise for another another 3 or 4 year. If the NHL Commissioner, Owners, Big Markets, the NHLPA, Players, Small Markets, Media and we the Fans can't and/or won't fix the current problems then SCREW IT I'M WATCHING MINOR CANADIAN HOCKEY!


Last edited by OYLer: 12-01-2003 at 11:07 PM.
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12-01-2003, 08:58 PM
  #48
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BEL,

You know who the guy I want to see the Oilers bring in? Kevin Constantine.

This guy to me is a very underrated coach. Good X's and O's guy, but what he is best at is A) giving the team a clear underdog identity and B) succeeding with it. Constantine coached I believe the Sharks in the mid 90's to a HUGE surprise victory over the Wings, and then coached the Penguins over a couple teams and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals.

The only concern I'd have is that he hasn't seem to have much luck long-term, and that he's a very defense-first coach. But considering the current goaltending situation and no white knight on the horizon, perhaps this is what the Oilers need?

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12-01-2003, 09:26 PM
  #49
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Okay, so now we're on to the trades stage:

What I'm acquiring:

----A pure-scorer (Parrish, Modin, Bondra, depending on availability etc, others of course would be considered, but we need at least one more finisher to play with a guy like Hemsky)

----A solid young 3/4 defenceman (I think we've already been over all these guys)

----A young goalie to split time with Ty (Ty is ready for a decent amount of action, and has the attitude. We acquire a Biron, Noronen, Hurme, etc, etc, etc, type to split with him, and hopefully one or both step up and play big until JDD is ready for prime time)

----Bit parts (a young player or two, maybe another forward if possible)

----Next year if healthy, I acquire Tim Connolly

Who's going:

(options)
Brad Isbister, Shawn Horcoff, Georges Laraque (very grudgingly and ideally not at all), Jani Rita, Tommy Salo, Scott Ferguson, Jason Smith (if he must be dealt in the defenceman deal, but hopefully not), Bobby Allen if I have to, draft picks. Players I would part with if absolutely forced to in order to get my roster right include Chimera and Pisani, but I really want to keep them.


NYI is prime for the taking right now, I'd like to capitalize on that situation.

I still want to take a serious run at Pavel Kubina



So at this point we have a team that looks somethin like:

Smyth-Oates-Dvorak
(scorer)-Comrie-Hemsky
Torres-Reasoner-York
(Pisani, Stoll, Moreau, Chimera, Salmelainen)
[If I have to, I can sacrifice that scorer and simply bring in a more pop-gun offensive player with a little shooting skill for the 3rd/4th lines, and play York on the 2nd line. Also, these lines would be subject to chemistry, coaching decisions, ETC, obviously.]

(D in no order)
Brewer
Bergeron
Cross
Staios
Semenov
Acquired top-4 d-man
Depth d-man also acquired (younger, possibly from NYI or BUF)
Maybe Smith, but unlikely, too high of a salary for reward.

Conklin
(Young goalie, maybe higher $$$'s like Biron, maybe less like Noro/Hurme/Gerber/Bryz, etc.)


I of course make no apologies for the fact that that is a very offensive oriented squad. You've got 3 lines that could rip you apart, and a 4th line with good checking, yet offensive spark.

The d is solid enough, and built for the team I want to have. With the amount of offensive puck control we would have, an extra-strong D is not a huge priority. Plus, lots of players there that will develop, especially with their new coaching and new system.

I really like that goaltending duo.

The team is young, relatively cheap, and as we sit there, we move onto the next stage, which I am again slightly confused as how to approach, which is contracts and such for next year.


Last edited by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1: 12-01-2003 at 09:53 PM.
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12-01-2003, 09:37 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Hey GM Loudmouth, just curious but what exactly do you believe is the current talent level of this team (3 seed, 4 seed, 5 seed)? You must have a higher opinion of their talent than I. From my eyes this is a 7 seed to 10 seed team in search of an elite skill player. Hemsky looks close but we'll know better in two to three years along with the true championship potential of this hockey team.

Secondly, who do you view as your potential 'dream' head coach and assistants based on your critera (high all around skill level, etc.). Assuming there are no issues or barriers for hiring, who specifically would you choose?
I think they can finish around 5th as they are with decent performances, maybe with a small pick up or two. And they have tools to pick up players that would push them a place higher possibly. I don't think we need a superstar honestly, not to place 5th. I will admit it's tough to crack that barrier, but hey, it can be done, especially if Colorado keeps getting injuries and STL drops down to earth. I do think that in 2-3 years we could be a respected and feared contender for the cup, just based on player development and a key grab or two, but I think any team that can compete night-in night-out and can score against good teams has a shot in the playoffs, when the style changes.


The coach is a TOUGH decision. I would honestly have to interview people and decide, there are so many candidates out there. And if I could have til next year, I think I'd be very inclined to make an agressive pitch for Messier (kind of going against my "no old-boys" call, but I see Mess as different). Larry Robinson would be a name to think of, but say, there are just so many guys. I'd definately talk to that Finnish coach who invented the REAL trap, as an offensive system with 4 players up in the play, just out of curiosity even. There are so many guys, I'd need the actual NHL contacts to decide.

note: my fingers are gettin tired, I knew this thread would be work


Last edited by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1: 12-01-2003 at 09:42 PM.
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