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McKeen's top 12 prospects

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Old
12-19-2006, 07:24 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Tervin View Post
Backlund, Sutter, and O'Brien all have two things in common, they're unable to produce offensively in their respective leagues, and they're all falling down the charts. Same pattern as Gillies. So why would their selection make you happy and not Gillies ?

Also, from what I read, Cunti did not make the cut for the WJC Swiss team. If he is in fact a first round talent, wouldn't a team like the swiss want him desperatly in their lineup ?
Did you read the original article and the pro scouts' takes on Gillies, or did you ignore it. Gillies has five goals paying against guys pretty much his same age.

O'Brien is a 17-year-old playing against 20-23 year olds.

Backlund is a 17-year-old playing against men.

You're expecting huge production from them this season? Not overly knowledgable about the draft I take it.

Sutter has 15 goals compared to Gillies' 5... You honestly can tell me that you don't see more offensive upside in Sutter than Gillies?

As for Cunti - there were hundreds of prospects that didn't make their national teams this year - should the Habs pass on Esposito if he drops to the 20th spot because he didn't make the WJC?

Even Swiss posters (and many Euro posters in general) are puzzled as to why Cunti was picked by the Swiss to play...thus should he be penalized in the draft because of what many think was a poor decision by the management of the Swiss team?

Whitesnake asked me if there were any "big" centers with some offensive ability that the Habs may look at, and I responded. I also added that there may not be one of those available to the Habs where they pick, and may consider going for a defenceman. Apparently you chose to ignore that as well. Was your post merely a weak effort to discredit me?

Gillies doesn't look like more than a third line center at the NHL level, and with Plekanec, Lapierre, White, and Chipchura, I really don't see us having a need for picking another one. Chipchura will be able to do everything Gillies can in the future and perhaps more in terms of production IMO.


Last edited by turnbuckle*: 12-19-2006 at 07:29 PM.
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12-19-2006, 07:49 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Did you read the original article and the pro scouts' takes on Gillies, or did you ignore it. Gillies has five goals paying against guys pretty much his same age.

O'Brien is a 17-year-old playing against 20-23 year olds.

Backlund is a 17-year-old playing against men.

You're expecting huge production from them this season? Not overly knowledgable about the draft I take it.

Sutter has 15 goals compared to Gillies' 5... You honestly can tell me that you don't see more offensive upside in Sutter than Gillies?

As for Cunti - there were hundreds of prospects that didn't make their national teams this year - should the Habs pass on Esposito if he drops to the 20th spot because he didn't make the WJC?

Even Swiss posters (and many Euro posters in general) are puzzled as to why Cunti was picked by the Swiss to play...thus should he be penalized in the draft because of what many think was a poor decision by the management of the Swiss team?

Whitesnake asked me if there were any "big" centers with some offensive ability that the Habs may look at, and I responded. I also added that there may not be one of those available to the Habs where they pick, and may consider going for a defenceman. Apparently you chose to ignore that as well. Was your post merely a weak effort to discredit me?

Gillies doesn't look like more than a third line center at the NHL level, and with Plekanec, Lapierre, White, and Chipchura, I really don't see us having a need for picking another one. Chipchura will be able to do everything Gillies can in the future and perhaps more in terms of production IMO.
Have you seen Gillies play? I saw him score a dilly of a goal. He is of course a project but is playing hurt.

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12-19-2006, 08:19 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
Have you seen Gillies play? I saw him score a dilly of a goal. He is of course a project but is playing hurt.
Well - he scores once every six games or so, so you were lucky.
I saw Gillies in the Russia challenge - had one shift where he just steamrolled a Russian - he certainly has some physical skills, but he showed nothing offensively in that game either. A tough game to gauge him by tho - I'm going more from the opinion of scouts.

I suppose if Gillies were to somehow drop into the 20s he'd be tough to pass up; I just see him being a poor fit unless he's converted to the wing. He skates better than Chippy, but doesn't have near the smarts nor heart IMO.

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12-19-2006, 08:46 PM
  #29
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Gillies plays for an awful team, too. The Blades don't generate many scoring chances and have a crap power play. Gillies has been a healthy scratch twice in the 5 games I've gone to this year... and I doubt it was a "healthy" scratch. He clearly has to be battling some injuries.

He hits like a mother, though. And he skates better than any big man I've seen at 18.

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12-19-2006, 09:02 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by saskhab View Post
Gillies plays for an awful team, too. The Blades don't generate many scoring chances and have a crap power play. Gillies has been a healthy scratch twice in the 5 games I've gone to this year... and I doubt it was a "healthy" scratch. He clearly has to be battling some injuries.

He hits like a mother, though. And he skates better than any big man I've seen at 18.
He actually plays it tougher than Chip from what Ive seen. In the 20s he would seem a good pick.

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12-19-2006, 09:18 PM
  #31
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Luca Cunti
Am I really, really immature or is that an effin awesome name?

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12-19-2006, 09:18 PM
  #32
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He actually plays it tougher than Chip from what Ive seen. In the 20s he would seem a good pick.
Perhaps. Chippy was pretty "chippy" in junior though, averaging about 100 PMs per full season. IMO there is no comparison in their smarts, and any perceived physical advantage to Gillies would be be more than compensated for by Chippy's character, leadership and smarts. Gillies is not getting back positive results in those departments.

If we drafted Gillies, I'm almost positive he would be groomed to play on Chipchura's wing. Imagine a line someday of Gillies, Chipchura and Latendresse ...opposing defencemen wouldn't get out alive LOL.

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12-19-2006, 10:15 PM
  #33
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To be fair, O'Brien is 17 and playing in the NCAA, it's very rare to see 17 year olds in the NCAA, as more freshman at entering the league at 19 so that they are physically ready since the age group is more in the 18-23 range. I've seen O'Brien a lot, I personally hope we don't go for him in the 1st. I also like teammate Brain Schack, a big stay at home type, he's often paired with David Fischer, although I have no clue where he will end up being ranked as he's listed as a limited viewing by CSB.

Also of interest is another teammate of a prospect in TJ Galiardi from Dartmouth. Liked what I've seen from him so far, although he'll need to bulk up a little, he's having a good start so far.
In fact, I didn't notice he was only 17. From what you've seen, is his time on ice limited ? And why do you hope we don't go for him if not poor offensive production ?

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12-19-2006, 10:32 PM
  #34
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O'Brien isn't producing at a great clip as he's not playing much. Personally I think he may be rated a little high as he hasn't been great this season, but he looked really good last season so he's getting a bit of the benefit of the doubt. It can be tough to properly scout them when they're playing against competition that is so much older.

Not my first choice as a pick for the Habs; neither is Cunti.

As Trevor Timmins said the other day...."He's Swiss. Will he ever come over from Switzerland?" They get treated pretty well at home.

I'm not sold on any of the potential centers in the 15-30 range besides Sutter and Backlund.

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12-19-2006, 11:03 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tervin View Post
In fact, I didn't notice he was only 17. From what you've seen, is his time on ice limited ? And why do you hope we don't go for him if not poor offensive production ?
He's on the 4th line, he got benched and then came back and scored 2 goals his first in the NCAA. He's got the size and he works hard, but at this point I wouldn't take him in the 1st due to his offensive upside but it's hard to say since it's so rare to see such a young guy in the NCAA. I'm hoping for a guy like Alex Grant if we end up drafting around 23rd or so. But things will be up in the air until April or as the draft rankings will likely change a lot between now and then.

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12-19-2006, 11:24 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Did you read the original article and the pro scouts' takes on Gillies, or did you ignore it. Gillies has five goals paying against guys pretty much his same age.

O'Brien is a 17-year-old playing against 20-23 year olds.

Backlund is a 17-year-old playing against men.

You're expecting huge production from them this season? Not overly knowledgable about the draft I take it.

Sutter has 15 goals compared to Gillies' 5... You honestly can tell me that you don't see more offensive upside in Sutter than Gillies?

As for Cunti - there were hundreds of prospects that didn't make their national teams this year - should the Habs pass on Esposito if he drops to the 20th spot because he didn't make the WJC?

Even Swiss posters (and many Euro posters in general) are puzzled as to why Cunti was picked by the Swiss to play...thus should he be penalized in the draft because of what many think was a poor decision by the management of the Swiss team?

Whitesnake asked me if there were any "big" centers with some offensive ability that the Habs may look at, and I responded. I also added that there may not be one of those available to the Habs where they pick, and may consider going for a defenceman. Apparently you chose to ignore that as well. Was your post merely a weak effort to discredit me?

Gillies doesn't look like more than a third line center at the NHL level, and with Plekanec, Lapierre, White, and Chipchura, I really don't see us having a need for picking another one. Chipchura will be able to do everything Gillies can in the future and perhaps more in terms of production IMO.
Yes, I did read the original post and article. And no, I was not trying to discredit you. At the contrary, trying to have more details on your opinion.

See, to me, they (Gillies, Sutter, Backlund, O'Brien) are all highly ranked players that are falling down the charts due to their lack of offensive contribution. In fact Sutter has better stats than Gillies but he plays more and with much better offensive teamates. Backlund plays against men, but not in the SEL. Granted o'Brien is only 17. From what I read, Gillies has a better skill set or at least equal to the other 3. So if we can conclude that Gillies will not put it all together, what makes us think that the others will ?

As for the D's you suggested, I personnaly think they are interesting picks from where we will be selecting (30th ) Maybe more than all the centers we've been discussing.

I understand your point regarding Esposito, but he had to make the canadian lineup, not the Swiss one. So let me ask the question differently : Who's the last draft eligible player, not canadian, american, russian, tchek, sweden, or fin, that did not make his country's lineup for WJC and still got drafted in the first round ?

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12-19-2006, 11:35 PM
  #37
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Well

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Seeing the kind of year Kane and Gagner have, you would also think that top 5 for both of them is pretty normal.

But why, in some other lists don't we see Kane's name that much?

An other thing, seems that the most talk about guys on the rise are Turris and Van Riemsdyk. Any chance they'll finish top 5? Are they on the rise from McKeen's standpoint?

Thanks.
Kane started "slow" and has caught up big time. Slow being a relative term. Gagner and Kane are fitting together perfectly. The dynamic is such that they make each other look that much better. Great hockey skills all around.

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12-20-2006, 12:03 AM
  #38
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He's on the 4th line, he got benched and then came back and scored 2 goals his first in the NCAA. He's got the size and he works hard, but at this point I wouldn't take him in the 1st due to his offensive upside but it's hard to say since it's so rare to see such a young guy in the NCAA. I'm hoping for a guy like Alex Grant if we end up drafting around 23rd or so. But things will be up in the air until April or as the draft rankings will likely change a lot between now and then.
I'm getting some poor reports on Alex Grant's hockey sense. I've heard him called 'brain dead"...."he's got the tools but no toolbox', etc.

Grant was one of the guys looked at as a possible top five pick for 2007 a couple of years ago, but his development has been disappointing.

We have him ranked in the third round at this point, although someone will probably take a chance on his brain catching up with his body.

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12-20-2006, 12:14 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Tervin View Post
Yes, I did read the original post and article. And no, I was not trying to discredit you. At the contrary, trying to have more details on your opinion.

See, to me, they (Gillies, Sutter, Backlund, O'Brien) are all highly ranked players that are falling down the charts due to their lack of offensive contribution. In fact Sutter has better stats than Gillies but he plays more and with much better offensive teamates. Backlund plays against men, but not in the SEL. Granted o'Brien is only 17. From what I read, Gillies has a better skill set or at least equal to the other 3. So if we can conclude that Gillies will not put it all together, what makes us think that the others will ?

As for the D's you suggested, I personnaly think they are interesting picks from where we will be selecting (30th ) Maybe more than all the centers we've been discussing.

I understand your point regarding Esposito, but he had to make the canadian lineup, not the Swiss one. So let me ask the question differently : Who's the last draft eligible player, not canadian, american, russian, tchek, sweden, or fin, that did not make his country's lineup for WJC and still got drafted in the first round ?
You originally said Sutter has poor offensive numbers. He is averaging a point per game playing behind one of the top scoring players in the league in Ryan White. Is he really getting a lot more ice time than Gillies, who is on a poor team while Sutter is on a top team? If that's the case should that not tell you something?

Gillies has a medicore shot, vision, stickhandling skills and hockey sense. Such is not the case for Backlund and Sutter on at least three of those points. Backlund and Sutter have better skill sets than Gillies, and more offensive upside without question. Gillies will play in the league one day though; the physical package is just too intriguing.

As for your question about players from obscure countries not playing for their country in the WJCs....very few of them are ever drafted in the first round; it's a fairly moot point. I don't have the time right now to take the day or two to do the research thanks.

As for dmen - I wouldn't mind seeing Mark Katic drop; or Nick Petrecki. "Crazy Nick" would be a good replacement for Shelly LOL.

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12-20-2006, 01:24 AM
  #40
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Well this team is looking for a big centreman with offensive upside, and Colton Gillies radiates that like no other. He plays exactly like his Hall of Fame uncle and is the same size. The only other big centreman that might be taken that low is Keven Veilleux, but its not like he actually hits.

However, I'm just basing my judgment on what I read, so If you say he is only a 3rd liner, then maybe the Habs should look somewhere else. But he is only 17 and so the Habs can draft him and maybe next year he will break out, maybe not. But we do know he will be at least a good 3rd liner, which is nice to have. A Chipchura/Gillies (if you shift one to the wing) connection can be similar to a Gainey/Jarvis duo. These are smart hockey players and then there would be possibly White/Lapierre 4th line, which would also cause headaches. This is all assuming Colton does not develop as once thought (he was at one point a for sure top-10 and even challenged Esposito for #1).

There is also the possibility of getting another defenceman, which wouldn't hurt. I think it might be based on how Valentenko does in the WJC, because if he is as good as they think he is then our d-man system is pretty much set (Komi, O'Byrne, Emelin, Valentenko, Carle, Fischer, even Korpikari).

It's nice to have these debates though, since the Habs could take anybody and no one would complain, our system is just that good, it's not completely dependent on this upcoming first rounder. Remember that this team can move up in the draft to get who they really want too, since we have two 3rd round picks from the Zednik trade.

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12-20-2006, 02:29 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
I'm getting some poor reports on Alex Grant's hockey sense. I've heard him called 'brain dead"...."he's got the tools but no toolbox', etc.

Grant was one of the guys looked at as a possible top five pick for 2007 a couple of years ago, but his development has been disappointing.

We have him ranked in the third round at this point, although someone will probably take a chance on his brain catching up with his body.
I've been watching him a little here and there over the past two years as StJ has free webcasts. I like what I've seen from him but it doesn't matter what I think, just what Timmins and company do come draft day. He's such a good skater, good size and seems to have good offensive skills on a bad team. I also like what I saw from Yann Sauve although I assume he's highly rated for the '08 draft.

But I also don't get any scouting reports, I just go off what I see and know as I try and watch a crap load of hockey when possible although the budget has to be cut back after spending 300 bucks USA (NHL center ice + Hamilton season pass + NCAA package to see all of Fischer's games) so I've been sticking with more of the free webcasts from the Q to get a feel for the draft, really I do it more to be ready for future Hab prospects. This way come the day after the draft, hopefully I have an idea of what we just drafted.

In the past I would try and watch as much CHL/NCAA games as possible to see as many prospects I could for the upcoming draft each year. But being in the states it gets expensive to acquire CHL games from friends in Canada and Euro league games from the RSL/FNL/SEL/Euro Cup/Euro Challenge, but it's great that now a days it's become much easier to obtain these games, I really hope someday that they start to show some Euro hockey games in North America on tv. Would be great to see RSL games or Euro Challenge (saw Korpikari/Perezhogin/Grabovski in these games but it's 16 bucks a pop US dollars)

Now I try and follow prospects that I think the Habs will be interested in but I am out of touch with where they are ranked. I don't pay for any scouting reports like Redline or ISS, although in the past I had a lot of contact with Dennis MacInnis (ISS Director of Scouting), really good guy to talk hockey with. I used to get a lot of info from him about the drafts, just wouldn't post it since ISS staff are on the site and I was hoping to get a job with them (this was pre NHL lockout) Now I don't have any inside track on the scouting world, but I still form my own opinions which sometimes will be based on limited viewing and I can never focus as hard untill I know they are Hab prospects.

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12-20-2006, 07:26 AM
  #42
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Well; I always pay atterntion to your thoughts on prospects; if you like Grant, there's a reason for it as far as I'm concerned.

One of my tasks is to se as mnay of the prospects as possible, so you can imagine that I don't get to see a lot of some prospects. Grant is one players i'd like to see a few more times.

There are some scouts who will stilll look seriously at him in the second round; as you say, he's got a nice package of size and skating ability.

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12-20-2006, 07:31 AM
  #43
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Well this team is looking for a big centreman with offensive upside, and Colton Gillies radiates that like no other. He plays exactly like his Hall of Fame uncle and is the same size. The only other big centreman that might be taken that low is Keven Veilleux, but its not like he actually hits.

However, I'm just basing my judgment on what I read, so If you say he is only a 3rd liner, then maybe the Habs should look somewhere else. But he is only 17 and so the Habs can draft him and maybe next year he will break out, maybe not. But we do know he will be at least a good 3rd liner, which is nice to have. A Chipchura/Gillies (if you shift one to the wing) connection can be similar to a Gainey/Jarvis duo. These are smart hockey players and then there would be possibly White/Lapierre 4th line, which would also cause headaches. This is all assuming Colton does not develop as once thought (he was at one point a for sure top-10 and even challenged Esposito for #1).

There is also the possibility of getting another defenceman, which wouldn't hurt. I think it might be based on how Valentenko does in the WJC, because if he is as good as they think he is then our d-man system is pretty much set (Komi, O'Byrne, Emelin, Valentenko, Carle, Fischer, even Korpikari).

It's nice to have these debates though, since the Habs could take anybody and no one would complain, our system is just that good, it's not completely dependent on this upcoming first rounder. Remember that this team can move up in the draft to get who they really want too, since we have two 3rd round picks from the Zednik trade.


No - Gillies doesn't radiate offensive upside - He DOES NOT project to be a scorer in the NHL, and I have no idea why some of you keep insisting he does..

Even Chad Kilger produced at the junior level, and look at his NHL production. Big kid with skating ability, and he can shoot the puck a helluva lot better than Gilies.

Were pretty much stacked at every position right now, so I don't think it matters to much about the position - just get the BPA.

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12-20-2006, 12:06 PM
  #44
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You originally said Sutter has poor offensive numbers. He is averaging a point per game playing behind one of the top scoring players in the league in Ryan White. Is he really getting a lot more ice time than Gillies, who is on a poor team while Sutter is on a top team? If that's the case should that not tell you something?

Gillies has a medicore shot, vision, stickhandling skills and hockey sense. Such is not the case for Backlund and Sutter on at least three of those points. Backlund and Sutter have better skill sets than Gillies, and more offensive upside without question. Gillies will play in the league one day though; the physical package is just too intriguing.

As for your question about players from obscure countries not playing for their country in the WJCs....very few of them are ever drafted in the first round; it's a fairly moot point. I don't have the time right now to take the day or two to do the research thanks.

As for dmen - I wouldn't mind seeing Mark Katic drop; or Nick Petrecki. "Crazy Nick" would be a good replacement for Shelly LOL.
Isn't Sutter a first center in Red Deer ? Ryan White is in Calgary I believe. Anyway, i see your point regardless. I'm not debating that Gillies is better than what you're saying, even if it's the first time I hear somebody thinks he has mediocre skills. I am more debating Sutter's potential as a top 2 line center. He is averaging a point per game but with the ice time he gets (including PP) and quality linemates he has, it's still less than what was expected originally, therefore he's dropping. He might not even reach 30 goal plateau. I would still be happy if habs pick him, but not at 20-23 spot. Maybe if they trade down.

As for players from obscure countries (as you put it) I don't think it's a moot point. There are examples almost every year. For instance Kopitar 2005(Slovenia), A.Kostitsyn 2003(Belarus), Goc 2001(Germany), etc... The only one I can think of that did not go to WJC is Vanek 2003(Austria) but I'm pretty sure he was not cut, he refused to go. So because Luca Cunti was actually cut from the Swiss team, he wont be a first round pick in 2007. That's just my theory, I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing.

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12-20-2006, 01:20 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Tervin View Post
Isn't Sutter a first center in Red Deer ? Ryan White is in Calgary I believe. Anyway, i see your point regardless. I'm not debating that Gillies is better than what you're saying, even if it's the first time I hear somebody thinks he has mediocre skills. I am more debating Sutter's potential as a top 2 line center. He is averaging a point per game but with the ice time he gets (including PP) and quality linemates he has, it's still less than what was expected originally, therefore he's dropping. He might not even reach 30 goal plateau. I would still be happy if habs pick him, but not at 20-23 spot. Maybe if they trade down.

As for players from obscure countries (as you put it) I don't think it's a moot point. There are examples almost every year. For instance Kopitar 2005(Slovenia), A.Kostitsyn 2003(Belarus), Goc 2001(Germany), etc... The only one I can think of that did not go to WJC is Vanek 2003(Austria) but I'm pretty sure he was not cut, he refused to go. So because Luca Cunti was actually cut from the Swiss team, he wont be a first round pick in 2007. That's just my theory, I'm not trying to convince you, just sharing.

Sorry - Sutter isn't behind White, brain overload.

Gilies has mediocre skills when it comes to the total package. He can skate great for his size and hit, but the offensive skills just aren't anywhere near the pro level at this point. I haven't heard a single scout say Gillies is an offensive diamond in the rough.


I know your point about guys playing for their "small" countries, but you expected those guys to play for those countries - Andrei k was playing for Belarus when he was 15, Kopitar was all they had on the Slovenian team when he was 17....I just don't think it's a good example; Switzerland is usually a much stronger team than Slovenia and Belarus. Cunti was a dominant force at the recent 4 Nations Cup, and everybody had him pencilled into the Swiss lineup. For whatever reasons they went with the older crew, much like Sweden and Finland did.

I just don't think you can judge a prospect's ranking on whether he made a junior national team or not.. I just think it's playing with fire. I'm pretty sure pro teams don't put a lot of stock into it. Judge the player on what you've seen with your own eyes and those of your fellow scouts first and foremost.

The biggest reason Cunti may drop at the draft is because he's Swiss and plays in the Swiss league, where the players are taken care of, especially the local stars.

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