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Is there a lesson for BG from Leafs experience?

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Old
12-21-2006, 12:56 PM
  #1
Habs4ever
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Is there a lesson for BG from Leafs experience?

They spend close to $15 million for their top three defencemen, and still their goaltender finds himself rated out of top 30 goaltenders.

How can this be, a team that sacrificed offence to become strong defensively puts out worse off effort.

so now with Markov, Souray looking for similar contract, should BG invest big money in top pairing or should we focus on depth talent, and less emphasize on getting big contract, we will have to make decision and I hope we don't get into troubles that leafs seem to get themself into...

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12-21-2006, 01:02 PM
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Markov will have Kaberle type of money (And Kaberle have done more then Markov in his career) = 4.5 by year !


If Souray want 4.5 by a year, go for it !

If the salary cap is at 44m$ now and will goes go 47m$ we'll have space...

Niinimaa = 2.5 (don't resign him)
Bonk = 2.4 (don't resign him, yes he's good but Plekanec, Lapierre or Chipchura can take him spot)
Johnson = 1.9 (I don't know if we gonna resign him, with the depth in Hamilton, may be not)
Downey = 0.475

Total: 7.275 m $ free

I think we should keep Souray and Markov.

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12-21-2006, 01:05 PM
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BG has to do everything he can to establish 2 things:

1) A Stanley Cup

2) A team that can win every year

Obviously #1 is more important than #2 simply because I would take ring over a "chance" to win 3 (or more).

He will do the right choice for the team, and if he can keep both he will. Markov/Souray mean too much for us to let them go for nothing. Different situation with the Leafs because they have Kaberle/McCabe then they have nobody else (other then Sundin).

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12-21-2006, 01:06 PM
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The main difference is that the Leaf signed those guys (and you can also include Gill, making 18.5m / 4 d) despite having big hole up front. If the Habs sign Markov & Souray, they still have great depth at the foward, so they won't need to bring new players. I don't think money is going to be the issue, if we let Niinima & Rivet and the cap goes up, there should be enough money available.

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12-21-2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
They spend close to $15 million for their top three defencemen, and still their goaltender finds himself rated out of top 30 goaltenders.

How can this be, a team that sacrificed offence to become strong defensively puts out worse off effort.

so now with Markov, Souray looking for similar contract, should BG invest big money in top pairing or should we focus on depth talent, and less emphasize on getting big contract, we will have to make decision and I hope we don't get into troubles that leafs seem to get themself into...
euh... Souray is the reason why the PP works so well, and PP is more related to offense than defense IMO. Therefore, what Gainey needs to do IMO is to get rid of players he wastes money on (Niinimaa and Samsonov). With those two gone (main problem being Samsonov), he can affort paying at least one of those.

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12-21-2006, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
They spend close to $15 million for their top three defencemen, and still their goaltender finds himself rated out of top 30 goaltenders.

How can this be, a team that sacrificed offence to become strong defensively puts out worse off effort.

so now with Markov, Souray looking for similar contract, should BG invest big money in top pairing or should we focus on depth talent, and less emphasize on getting big contract, we will have to make decision and I hope we don't get into troubles that leafs seem to get themself into...
I think the best lesson can be learned from Detroit, a team that successfully manages to sustain a top level of competition through intelligent drafting as well as astute trade acquisitions and UFA pick ups.
.


Last edited by Catch-22: 12-21-2006 at 03:15 PM.
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12-21-2006, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CH Iggins View Post
Markov will have Kaberle type of money (And Kaberle have done more then Markov in his career) = 4.5 by year !


If Souray want 4.5 by a year, go for it !

If the salary cap is at 44m$ now and will goes go 47m$ we'll have space...

Niinimaa = 2.5 (don't resign him)
Bonk = 2.4 (don't resign him, yes he's good but Plekanec, Lapierre or Chipchura can take him spot)
Johnson = 1.9 (I don't know if we gonna resign him, with the depth in Hamilton, may be not)
Downey = 0.475

Total: 7.275 m $ free

I think we should keep Souray and Markov.
Errrrrr, newflash: Both could probably get 5.5 million + on the market.

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12-21-2006, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CH Iggins View Post
Markov will have Kaberle type of money (And Kaberle have done more then Markov in his career) = 4.5 by year !


If Souray want 4.5 by a year, go for it !

If the salary cap is at 44m$ now and will goes go 47m$ we'll have space...

Niinimaa = 2.5 (don't resign him)
Bonk = 2.4 (don't resign him, yes he's good but Plekanec, Lapierre or Chipchura can take him spot)
Johnson = 1.9 (I don't know if we gonna resign him, with the depth in Hamilton, may be not)
Downey = 0.475

Total: 7.275 m $ free

I think we should keep Souray and Markov.
So basically you destroy the most consistent line we have this year
Perizhogin Bonk Johnson.......Good Job
Oh by the way Johnson is SIGNED for next year.

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Old
12-21-2006, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
They spend close to $15 million for their top three defencemen, and still their goaltender finds himself rated out of top 30 goaltenders.

How can this be, a team that sacrificed offence to become strong defensively puts out worse off effort.

so now with Markov, Souray looking for similar contract, should BG invest big money in top pairing or should we focus on depth talent, and less emphasize on getting big contract, we will have to make decision and I hope we don't get into troubles that leafs seem to get themself into...
First of all, kudos on the thread. Good well worded question. I personally feel that we shouldn't do what TO did. (for obvious reasons) The first reason being, RayCroft is a good goalie. If your paying 15million dollars for defense and your "good" goalie can't keep the puck out of the net, your defense isn't doing their job. Maybe it's because of their hefty contract that they don't care as much, who knows...

I'd say keep Markov, dump Souray to San Jose/Anaheim/Kings. Probably Kings would be best. Not because I don't like Souray, I do. But unless he's going to make an offer that's practically against his own favor, it's going to be too expensive to keep him. I don't know though.... maybe they'll decide to dump Ninimaa in order to pay for Souray. I think Souray wants to be moved to West USA now though, to be with his daughter.

Another thing is, we have decent depth on D already. Komisarek is probably the best draft we've had in a WHILE. He's a top notch stay at home D. Markov is an extremely good two way D. Put them together and you've got a good line right there.

Rivet we could probably keep for a lot less and he's an average stay at home D but he's a veteran and he's been with the team a long time.

So that's 3 dmen. We dump ninimaa, pickup souray that's 4 and then the rest...

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12-21-2006, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikhail Grabovsky View Post
So basically you destroy the most consistent line we have this year
Perizhogin Bonk Johnson.......Good Job
Oh by the way Johnson is SIGNED for next year.
Ummm nope

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12-21-2006, 03:29 PM
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Ummm nope
Maybe you should use Caps Lock to make sure he gets the message

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12-21-2006, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
They spend close to $15 million for their top three defencemen, and still their goaltender finds himself rated out of top 30 goaltenders.

How can this be, a team that sacrificed offence to become strong defensively puts out worse off effort.

so now with Markov, Souray looking for similar contract, should BG invest big money in top pairing or should we focus on depth talent, and less emphasize on getting big contract, we will have to make decision and I hope we don't get into troubles that leafs seem to get themself into...
The only problem is that the leafs have top 2 offensive defensmen and they suck defensively! (Kaberle & McCabe). A thougher question would be: If one of Kaberle or McCabe is hurt, how will the leafs produce offensively? Kaberle has the most point offensively in the entire leaf team (31, tie with tucker and wellwood) and Mccabe come second in points total (29, tie with Sundin).

If it bugs us that sourray is our second player in points on the hab roster, imagine what Toronto must feel like!

My answer to your question, we should resign Markov first, Then maybe sourray if he doesn<t ask more than 4.5, if he wants more, keep Rivet instead and bring Emelin to north america!

Habs rules

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12-21-2006, 03:46 PM
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To answer this question, we have to answer another question : will Souray be as dominant as he is this year during the next 3-4 years he'll be under contract at 5M +. Is Souray having a career year ? Will he be able to do it during the lenght of his UFA contract ? if Gainey thinks that Souray can continue doing what he is doing, he is defenatly worth 5M + a season. I just hope we won't end up with Souray pulling a Gonchar or a Jovo...

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12-21-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhail Grabovsky View Post
So basically you destroy the most consistent line we have this year
Perizhogin Bonk Johnson.......Good Job
Oh by the way Johnson is SIGNED for next year.
Next time you quote me, quote me for something true.


Johnson ISN'T SIGNED for the next year


Anyway, I really don't care of Bonk&Johnson, we have a lot of 2-way foward coming and now (Plekanec can play third line, Perez, Chipchura, Lapierre, Begin, Streit etc)

So yes, I rather love resign Markov and Souray >>>>>>>>>> Bonk and Johnson !
But I will not give more then 4.5 to Souray. One season doesn't make a career, if he want go away, its his choice.

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12-21-2006, 04:00 PM
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fatmax
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Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
To answer this question, we have to answer another question : will Souray be as dominant as he is this year during the next 3-4 years he'll be under contract at 5M +. Is Souray having a career year ? Will he be able to do it during the lenght of his UFA contract ? if Gainey thinks that Souray can continue doing what he is doing, he is defenatly worth 5M + a season. I just hope we won't end up with Souray pulling a Gonchar or a Jovo...
nice heads up here!
My bet would be no (Sourray won't be able to pile up numbers like this next year), it looks like it is harder to be constantly good on defense in comparison to offense!

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12-21-2006, 04:05 PM
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I don't really see how Kubina, Kaberle and Souray are the equivalent of Markov, Souray and Rivet.. Regardless I think that we might be okay so long as we can use a rookie on the backend to fill the 7th slot. (Souray, Rivet, Markov, Dandy, Komi, Bouillon)

Use Streit on the 4th line. Aebischer and Downey are gone. Drop one of Bonk or Johnson, but not both. Drop Niinimaa, and we're stocked on the wings, so Samsonov/Ryder/Kostitsyn/Latendresse only have 2 spots. Trading Samsonov and Ryder would be most cap beneficial. So we're left with:

Higgins-Koivu-Latendresse
Kostitsyn-Grabovsky (if not a UFA)-Kovalev
Perezhogin-Plekanec-Johnson or Pleks-Bonk-Perez
Begin-Lapierre-Streit
Murray/Chipchura extras

Markov-Komi
Souray-Rivet
Bouillon-Dandy
O'Byrne/Emelin/Cote extras

That's 3 rookies including Grabovsky on everyday duty, which is pretty iffy. Anyway, those moves free up between 12.5 and 13 million. If Markov gets 5m and Souray is $5.5m (both $3m raises), that's $6.5m left in raises to sign Rivet ($1m raise), Bonk/Johnson ($500k raise), Higgins ($2m raise), Plekanec ($1m raise), Perezhogin ($1m raise), Komisarek ($2m raise).
All that is $1m over what we currently are paying. Then you add rookie salaries for Grabovsky($.7m), Kostitsyn ($.9m), Lapierre($.6m), O'Byrne($.6m), Halak ($.5m)/Danis($1m) brings that total to $4.8m (at worst) over what we are currently paying. Obviously this won't work. And it's more likely that some of the rookies will be replaced in the lineup by cheap UFAs, which would make the total higher.

The more I look at it, the more I see Rivet as the odd man out on the back end, as sad as that is. Rivet will command what a quality centre will earn (Rivet (3.5) + Grabovsky (.9) is nearly all the "extra" cap space), and Komisarek, Souray, Markov and Bouillon can handle the top 4 spots, with Dandenault and O'Byrne/Streit being capable of the third pairing.
Up front I don't really see Grabovsky having a spot next season, but it's possible. I just don't see where he'd fit unless Kostitsyn was traded. I used him for my hypothetical "roster from within". I also don't think all those players will command such raises, but I'm sure some will get more, some less.

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12-21-2006, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CH Iggins View Post
Next time you quote me, quote me for something true.


Johnson ISN'T SIGNED for the next year


Anyway, I really don't care of Bonk&Johnson, we have a lot of 2-way foward coming and now (Plekanec can play third line, Perez, Chipchura, Lapierre, Begin, Streit etc)

So yes, I rather love resign Markov and Souray >>>>>>>>>> Bonk and Johnson !
But I will not give more then 4.5 to Souray. One season doesn't make a career, if he want go away, its his choice.
I think that's a mistake. That line is one of the best 3rd lines in the league. I really doubt that young rookies withouth nhl experience would be so effective and at times dominant. I think we'll need to keep at least one of thes 2 guys to "pass the torch" so to speak.

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12-21-2006, 04:08 PM
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nice heads up here!
My bet would be no (Sourray won't be able to pile up numbers like this next year), it looks like it is harder to be constantly good on defense in comparison to offense!
It's a gamble to make. If Souray comes back and racks up the goals, he makes our team look like a contender. If he comes back and plays like Jovo, he makes our team worse because we won't be able to sepnd those 5M + on a player who deserves 5M + (A SECOND/FIRST LINE CENTER AS GOOD AS KOIVU).

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12-21-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CH Iggins View Post
Next time you quote me, quote me for something true.


Johnson ISN'T SIGNED for the next year


Anyway, I really don't care of Bonk&Johnson, we have a lot of 2-way foward coming and now (Plekanec can play third line, Perez, Chipchura, Lapierre, Begin, Streit etc)

So yes, I rather love resign Markov and Souray >>>>>>>>>> Bonk and Johnson !
But I will not give more then 4.5 to Souray. One season doesn't make a career, if he want go away, its his choice.

So basically we start over and get rid of all the veterans and replace them with rookies? Not the way to build a cup contender, you end up turning in circles.

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