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Kane or Gagner

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Old
12-27-2006, 10:22 PM
  #26
SaveHextall
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Originally Posted by KBstyle View Post
What did Okposo to be the best player. He did some pretty move but never finish. I think he stickhandle too much. Kane was the best on the ice. Okposo look good but like i said he wasn't often dangerous for the goalie. Mueller look good, i think he pass the puck very well.

Kane will be draft higher then Gagner. Nut who knows
Okposo was a force with the puck, sure he didnt score but you dont have to score to play a good game. He also drew 4 penalties which indicates he was hard to handle.

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12-27-2006, 11:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SaveHextall View Post
Okposo was a force with the puck, sure he didnt score but you dont have to score to play a good game. He also drew 4 penalties which indicates he was hard to handle.
Who cares who the "better player was". The US team looked terrible as a whole and lost to GERMANYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. If you want to say that they both looked ok compared to the rest of their terrible teammates so be it. Don't argue who the best player was for them, because it really is not saying much.

As for the actual question of the thread, Gagner or Kane...its a really tough call at the moment. Kane is more of a finisher. He can do so much with the puck, it is ridiculous. Gagner as others have said is more of a playmaker. He would much rather set someone up with a tape to tape pass, but he can definately finish when he wants to. He had a very sweet looking end to end rush resulting in a goal earlier this year. Its on youtube if anyone hasn't seen it.

Both of them are high first rounders and will likely end up going in the Top 10. One or both could easily sneek into the Top 6 when its all said and done. Don't rely on the WJC's too much though, as Kane is seeing 1st line duty and lots of PP minutes. He is being asked to do alot in terms of offense for the US. Gagner is seeing 3'rd or 4'th line duty for Canada and is seeing little if any time on the PP. Sam even making the Canadian squad at 17 says enough.

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12-28-2006, 07:47 AM
  #28
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Kane passes just fine thank you, and is obviously the better player at this point.

Gagner started on the second line in this tournament, and played poorly enough to "earn" a demotion. Kane playing on the first line tells you just how highly thought of he is by the American coaching staff - do you penalize him for that?

Anyone still ranks Gagner ahead of Kane after this tournament should seriously reconsider. The proof is in the pudding, and has been all season. Don't get me wrong - Gagner is talented and will likely go top ten, but Kane is better IMO.

The bigger question should be how can you rank vanRiemsdyk ahead of Kane at this point?

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12-28-2006, 08:41 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post

Anyone still ranks Gagner ahead of Kane after this tournament should seriously reconsider. The proof is in the pudding, and has been all season. Don't get me wrong - Gagner is talented and will likely go top ten, but Kane is better IMO.
If we're judging players based solely on this tournament than I can name at least 4 Canadian defensemen that are *significantly* better than both Johnsons.

There is almost a years difference between the two and if some of you guys had seen some knights games this whole "who's better" argument might not be so black and white.

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12-28-2006, 08:51 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by thomasincanada View Post
There is almost a years difference between the two and if some of you guys had seen some knights games this whole "who's better" argument might not be so black and white.
I agree with this. It's a tough call but I would still take Gagner because he has two things you can't teach - incredible vision and incredible hockey sense and intelligence. Kane has amazing skills but Gagner is the visionary.

Again, it's worth noting that Kane is a late '88 while Gagner is only a month away from being a late '89. Nine months of age difference is a lot, especially in a 19-year-old's tournament.

Gagner has disappointed me in the WJC so far, but he had a great camp and scored a couple of goals in the WJC pre-tournament. Between that and a whole season of watching them here in London, I'd take Gagner.

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Old
12-28-2006, 08:53 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Anyone still ranks Gagner ahead of Kane after this tournament should seriously reconsider. The proof is in the pudding, and has been all season. Don't get me wrong - Gagner is talented and will likely go top ten, but Kane is better IMO.
I usually agree with almost everything you say turnbuckle, but I disagree here.

Having watched a fair few Knights games this year, I prefer Gagner as a player and when you factor in the birthdate issue, I think you will find that Gagner ends up ahead of Kane at the end of the year.

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12-28-2006, 09:25 AM
  #32
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Hey - you're entitled to your opinions. I think all of you are underrating Kane's vision, and poise. He's a top-end playmaker as well as a finisher. I'm sure some of you have seen the two in London more than I have this season, but I'm basing my opinion not only on what I've seen, but also what I've heard from scouts.

Watching Kane and Gagner play 25 minutes a game has it's advantages and disadvantages. As one scout was noting to me the other day - he was looking forward to seeing them have to play at a higher pace on the WJC level, and playing apart.

In London they're coasting a lot of the time because they're playing such long shifts; sometimes entire power plays for example. Some of Gagner's weaknesses have been exposed at the higher level of skating/hitting at the WJC I think, while Kane is still excelling thanks to his superior physical skills.

From a scout's perspective, there are parts of Gagner's game that can be questioned in a physical sense. Kane is a better skater than Gagner, and when you consider that there are many similarities including size and offensive production, I think he's a better pro prospect because of that. Both are undersized, but Kane is so intuitive and slick on his skates that he rarely gets hit; the same can't be said of Gagner, who in his defence appears a little more willing to go into heavy traffic.

Gagner has top ten talent without question, especially when one considers how young he is, but right now I think he's closer to ten than one, and Kane is closer to one than ten. We shall see.

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Old
12-28-2006, 09:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Hey - you're entitled to your opinions. I think all of you are underrating Kane's vision, and poise. He's a top-end playmaker as well as a finisher. I'm sure some of you have seen the two in London more than I have this season, but I'm basing my opinion not only on what I've seen, but also what I've heard from scouts.

Watching Kane and Gagner play 25 minutes a game has it's advantages and disadvantages. As one scout was noting to me the other day - he was looking forward to seeing them have to play at a higher pace on the WJC level, and playing apart.

In London they're coasting a lot of the time because they're playing such long shifts; sometimes entire power plays for example. Some of Gagner's weaknesses have been exposed at the higher level of skating/hitting at the WJC I think, while Kane is still excelling thanks to his superior physical skills.

From a scout's perspective, there are parts of Gagner's game that can be questioned in a physical sense. Kane is a better skater than Gagner, and when you consider that there are many similarities including size and offensive production, I think he's a better pro prospect because of that. Both are undersized, but Kane is so intuitive and slick on his skates that he rarely gets hit; the same can't be said of Gagner, who in his defence appears a little more willing to go into heavy traffic.

Gagner has top ten talent without question, especially when one considers how young he is, but right now I think he's closer to ten than one, and Kane is closer to one than ten. We shall see.
Thank you for your explanation.

I think the things that I would say that Gagner has an advantage in over Kane is that he reacts quicker to the play and translates that into certainly what seems like a better on ice vision. Kane seems to need longer on the puck to make plays than Gagner, for whom it seems almost instinctive.

The physical advantages Kane has may be a result of the age gap.

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12-28-2006, 02:57 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FearTheFlyers View Post
Thank you for your explanation.

I think the things that I would say that Gagner has an advantage in over Kane is that he reacts quicker to the play and translates that into certainly what seems like a better on ice vision. Kane seems to need longer on the puck to make plays than Gagner, for whom it seems almost instinctive.

The physical advantages Kane has may be a result of the age gap.
I'd take Gagner over Kane for the thinking quickness alone. Canadian kids are challenged at a younger age and their on-ice vision is further developed.

Plus I find most American kids overrated. A good example is Colin Wilson. While he was in Canada he was a good prospect. Now that he is with the UNDP Under 18's he's projected as a top 5 for 2008. Sorry folks, but he didn't all of sudden get that much better once he crossed the border.

The bigger issue here is that American's are getting higher ratings than they deserve. Just look at the WJC. Everybody here could easily name 6 or 8 guys on the American team while you would be hard pressed to name 6 or 8 Canadians, even though the
Canadian Team is a superior team with more talent.

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12-28-2006, 03:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by nags View Post
I'd take Gagner over Kane for the thinking quickness alone. Canadian kids are challenged at a younger age and their on-ice vision is further developed.

Plus I find most American kids overrated. A good example is Colin Wilson. While he was in Canada he was a good prospect. Now that he is with the UNDP Under 18's he's projected as a top 5 for 2008. Sorry folks, but he didn't all of sudden get that much better once he crossed the border.

The bigger issue here is that American's are getting higher ratings than they deserve. Just look at the WJC. Everybody here could easily name 6 or 8 guys on the American team while you would be hard pressed to name 6 or 8 Canadians, even though the
Canadian Team is a superior team with more talent.
First of all, Sam Gagner has spent a fair amount of his hockey development in the United States, so the argument about being challenged at an earlier age in the Canadian system doesn't hold a lot of water in this case. Both Kane and Gagner think and react to the game at a high level, and I doubt you have the ability to tell the differance.

Second, if American kids are being overrated, a lot of professional hockey people are being snookered. I don't think the "bust" factor with American players is differant than any other nation. On the other hand, maybe there just so happens to be more talented Americans at this point in time?

Third, Colin Wilson might be overrated, but he is having a nice year so far with *THE PROGRAM* and is progressing well towards his draft year-NEXT YEAR. Give the kid some time.

Fourth, the results that are achieved on a WJC squad has very little to to do with how well a kid projects as a pro. You must be a big Stephen Werner fan-eh?

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12-28-2006, 04:01 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
Both Kane and Gagner think and react to the game at a high level, and I doubt you have the ability to tell the differance.
I can tell Gagner reacts quicker pretty easily.

That's my point, Kane seems to need longer on the puck which can sometimes result in the loss of an offensive oppurtunity.

That's the difference I see between them in Gagner's favor, but I don't buy the argument it's because he's Canadian.

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12-28-2006, 11:49 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
First of all, Sam Gagner has spent a fair amount of his hockey development in the United States, so the argument about being challenged at an earlier age in the Canadian system doesn't hold a lot of water in this case. Both Kane and Gagner think and react to the game at a high level, and I doubt you have the ability to tell the differance.

Second, if American kids are being overrated, a lot of professional hockey people are being snookered. I don't think the "bust" factor with American players is differant than any other nation. On the other hand, maybe there just so happens to be more talented Americans at this point in time?

Third, Colin Wilson might be overrated, but he is having a nice year so far with *THE PROGRAM* and is progressing well towards his draft year-NEXT YEAR. Give the kid some time.

Fourth, the results that are achieved on a WJC squad has very little to to do with how well a kid projects as a pro. You must be a big Stephen Werner fan-eh?

Hockey people are being snookered! They are absolutely desperate to get a home grown star to try and sell tickets.

The fact remains that Canada still has more hockey talent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba than all of the USA even though the scouts don't really want to go there. They'd rather find that diamond in the rough in California for crying out loud! Give me a break!

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12-29-2006, 01:14 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by nags View Post
Hockey people are being snookered! They are absolutely desperate to get a home grown star to try and sell tickets.

The fact remains that Canada still has more hockey talent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba than all of the USA even though the scouts don't really want to go there. They'd rather find that diamond in the rough in California for crying out loud! Give me a break!
Gotcha.

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12-29-2006, 01:45 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nags View Post
Hockey people are being snookered! They are absolutely desperate to get a home grown star to try and sell tickets.

The fact remains that Canada still has more hockey talent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba than all of the USA even though the scouts don't really want to go there. They'd rather find that diamond in the rough in California for crying out loud! Give me a break!
Even if that is true, why do we care?

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Old
12-29-2006, 09:08 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by nags View Post
Hockey people are being snookered! They are absolutely desperate to get a home grown star to try and sell tickets.

The fact remains that Canada still has more hockey talent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba than all of the USA even though the scouts don't really want to go there. They'd rather find that diamond in the rough in California for crying out loud! Give me a break!

Cripes man.. you're giving us Canadians a bad name here. Give it a rest.

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Old
12-29-2006, 01:11 PM
  #41
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I'd say Kane played better than Okposo did. Okposo tried to do too much by himself and didn't use his linemates as well as Kane did.

Personally, I'd pick Kane over Gagner as he seems to be developping a better all-around game. Gagner *should* become a good sniper though.
Gagner definately has the better all around game. He plays better defensively and has a nose to grind for the puck. Uses his teammates better and has better vision.

How would have Kane done in last years WJ's? Cause that's the position Gagner is in right now. He is almost a year younger. Or how will Gagner do at next years tourney? What Gagner is doing this year is expected and completely normal - just like Joe Thornton and Rick Nash did when they played at 17.

Watching Kane play the first time it is easy to get excited about Kane's flash and skill. I'm guessing that's what is happening here. Watching them both all year i don't know who is better cause they are both great. But NHL teams are trying to determine who will be better when they are 25 and to my estimation Gagner may have the more upside. But who the heck knows, they are both good - my point is it is foolish to determine Kane automatically better based on 2 WJ games. (Plus Gagner's got to wear that stupid mask )

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Old
12-29-2006, 01:43 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by nags View Post
Hockey people are being snookered! They are absolutely desperate to get a home grown star to try and sell tickets.

The fact remains that Canada still has more hockey talent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba than all of the USA even though the scouts don't really want to go there. They'd rather find that diamond in the rough in California for crying out loud! Give me a break!

Hehe. Your kidding right?

Because I sure do think that is the first time someone has said that hockey scouts are ignoring Canada....


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Old
12-29-2006, 02:18 PM
  #43
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Gagner has done nothing in this tourny to impress me at all.

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12-29-2006, 03:23 PM
  #44
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One way to judge hockey players is their lenght of time with the puck. In this Kane wins hands down. Kane has the skill to control the play and is always is creating danger. Gagner is basically skating around without the puck trying to keep up with the play. At this point no comparison - it's Kane.

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12-29-2006, 09:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan View Post
Gagner has done nothing in this tourny to impress me at all.
I think his nerves have gotten to him and he might be a tad in over his head. He needs to relax a bit.

Very few 17 year olds have done well in this tournament in recent memory, though, and it's no insult to say he's not Crosby.

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Old
12-30-2006, 12:07 AM
  #46
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Gagner has done nothing in this tourny to impress me at all.
I've been disappointed in him as well. But to be fair, he's sort of expected to sit on the bench all game, and come out cold on a PP and be a wizard. He's trying to do too much. He's only 17, his ability to handle the pressure will improve, because it's obvious the physical attributes are there.

The one thing he did to impress me was that inside-out dangle on the US defenseman the other day. Sickest thing I've seen in this tournament so far.

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12-30-2006, 12:11 AM
  #47
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Well even though there were many whispers prior to camp that Sam Gagner would make this team because of the very close but usually kept hush-hush connection between Team Canada coach Craig Hartsburgh & Dave Gagner, I still thought that young Gagner would be set-up to not fail in this tourney.
(Hartsburgh & the elder Gagner were team-mates with Minnesota North Stars for three seasons, then as soon as Hartsy retired he was an assistant coach of Dave Gagner for one season)
It was expected that Sam would be given PP time (which he is still getting btw), and some prime-time on line one, two or three, etc. etc.
Yet in three games he has really done nothing at all to show that he is deserving of more icetime & PP time than a Bryan Little or many others who could surely do better.
As long as Hartsburgh sticks with him, he is bound to bust loose eventually in this tourney.
It is just unfortunate though to see great role players like Little, McHardle, etc. suffer because of the possible perception of favourtism going Gagner's way.

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12-30-2006, 09:24 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BlueJays View Post
Well even though there were many whispers prior to camp that Sam Gagner would make this team because of the very close but usually kept hush-hush connection between Team Canada coach Craig Hartsburgh & Dave Gagner
All comical conspiracy theories aside - Gagner *earned* his spot on the team. He put up good numbers in the tryouts.

However, he has struggled in the tournament and his ice time has dropped significantly. Seems about right to me.

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12-30-2006, 12:18 PM
  #49
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Kane has impressed me the most at the WJHC out of all the draft eligible players. As a Flyers fan I hope Kane is the kid that the Flyers select at #1(hopefully).

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12-30-2006, 12:35 PM
  #50
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Kane has impressed me the most at the WJHC out of all the draft eligible players. As a Flyers fan I hope Kane is the kid that the Flyers select at #1(hopefully).
I agree.

A centre is just what we need.

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