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Old
12-28-2006, 02:56 PM
  #1
Teufelsdreck
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Habs +/-

Everyone knows that the Bonk line has far and away the best +/- ratings on the team. What surprises me is that the Samsonov (+1) Plekanec (+1) Kovalev (-5) line is 10 better than the Higgins (-3) Koivu (-3) Ryder (-7) line.

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12-28-2006, 03:26 PM
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Pascal
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I think they have a bit worse than Kovy's line because they play on the PK as well. Notice Kovalev has -5 and he plays on the PK, yet Sammy has +1 and is on the same line.

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12-28-2006, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
I think they have a bit worse than Kovy's line because they play on the PK as well. Notice Kovalev has -5 and he plays on the PK, yet Sammy has +1 and is on the same line.
power play and pk don't count in the +/- stats

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12-28-2006, 03:33 PM
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Skyblaze
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- Koivu's line has slightly more icetime than Kovalev's.
- Carbonneau will attempt to throw Kovalev's line on when they're in the opposing team's zone while Koivu's can go on at any time.
- Koivu's line is usually matched by an opposing team's top 2 lines (scoring lines) while Kovalev's line is frequently playing against a checking line.

I think that should be enough to explain the small difference.

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12-28-2006, 03:49 PM
  #5
Mike8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblaze View Post
- Koivu's line has slightly more icetime than Kovalev's.
- Carbonneau will attempt to throw Kovalev's line on when they're in the opposing team's zone while Koivu's can go on at any time.
- Koivu's line is usually matched by an opposing team's top 2 lines (scoring lines) while Kovalev's line is frequently playing against a checking line.

I think that should be enough to explain the small difference.
Not so.

Koivu's line is the one that gets the opposition's top checking assignments. Occasionally the opposing club will have a top line that they feel comfortable putting up against Koivu, and Carbonneau doesn't mind this, so they go head-to-head (eg. Bonk's line goes up against Savard in Boston, while Koivu goes up against Bergeron).


But, as we saw last night, the opposition has a tendency to throw on their top offensive line against Kovalev's line. Remember the silly line-matchups at the beginning of the game last night, where Carbo would toss Bonk on the ice in anticipation of Ovechkin? Then Hanlon would toss on Sutherby's line (I think). So Carbo would pull Bonk off the ice and toss Kovalev on there. Then 10 seconds later, Hanlon would toss Ovechkin on there since Kovalev was out there. Then Carbo would take Kovalev off and double-shift Bonk, forcing Hanlon to match-up Ovechkin with Bonk.

Hanlon tried to get Ovechkin out there against Kovalev whenever possible.

The only coach that's REALLY burned Montreal/Kovalev is Jacques Martin. He is the only one who's completely beaten Carbonneau and gotten Jokinen's line out there versus Kovalev consistently, despite Carbonneau's best efforts.


As far as these stats go, they're inexplicable as far as I'm concerned. Koivu occasionally gets matched up against scoring lines like Bergeron's in Boston, or Alfredsson in Ottawa, or Briere in Buffalo, but he just as frequently draws the top checking lines of the opposition (Peca in Toronto, Madden in NJ, etc.). Meanwhile, many teams try to expose Kovalev's line's defensive deficiencies.

I suppose some of it is that Montreal plays division rivals all the more now, and Koivu does face more scoring lines within the division than he does outside of it; mainly because division rivals have smaller centers (easier for Koivu to handle), and more scoring depth.

Another factor may be that Montreal likes having Markov on the ice with Kovalev because of how well they connect offensively. Whereas the Souray/Rivet pairing (of past) was more frequently on the ice with the Koivu line.

I don't know. It's interesting, though. Because if you think about when Montreal's hemmed in their own zone, it's Kovalev's line that's being thoroughly dominated.

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12-28-2006, 05:56 PM
  #6
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Not so.

Koivu's line is the one that gets the opposition's top checking assignments. Occasionally the opposing club will have a top line that they feel comfortable putting up against Koivu, and Carbonneau doesn't mind this, so they go head-to-head (eg. Bonk's line goes up against Savard in Boston, while Koivu goes up against Bergeron).


But, as we saw last night, the opposition has a tendency to throw on their top offensive line against Kovalev's line. Remember the silly line-matchups at the beginning of the game last night, where Carbo would toss Bonk on the ice in anticipation of Ovechkin? Then Hanlon would toss on Sutherby's line (I think). So Carbo would pull Bonk off the ice and toss Kovalev on there. Then 10 seconds later, Hanlon would toss Ovechkin on there since Kovalev was out there. Then Carbo would take Kovalev off and double-shift Bonk, forcing Hanlon to match-up Ovechkin with Bonk.

Hanlon tried to get Ovechkin out there against Kovalev whenever possible.

The only coach that's REALLY burned Montreal/Kovalev is Jacques Martin. He is the only one who's completely beaten Carbonneau and gotten Jokinen's line out there versus Kovalev consistently, despite Carbonneau's best efforts.


As far as these stats go, they're inexplicable as far as I'm concerned. Koivu occasionally gets matched up against scoring lines like Bergeron's in Boston, or Alfredsson in Ottawa, or Briere in Buffalo, but he just as frequently draws the top checking lines of the opposition (Peca in Toronto, Madden in NJ, etc.). Meanwhile, many teams try to expose Kovalev's line's defensive deficiencies.

I suppose some of it is that Montreal plays division rivals all the more now, and Koivu does face more scoring lines within the division than he does outside of it; mainly because division rivals have smaller centers (easier for Koivu to handle), and more scoring depth.

Another factor may be that Montreal likes having Markov on the ice with Kovalev because of how well they connect offensively. Whereas the Souray/Rivet pairing (of past) was more frequently on the ice with the Koivu line.

I don't know. It's interesting, though. Because if you think about when Montreal's hemmed in their own zone, it's Kovalev's line that's being thoroughly dominated.
Well, Samsonov is +1 and Plekanec is +1, while Kovalev is -5. Those figures don't suggest that they are being thoroughly dominated by Ovechkin or anybody else. Why are Kovalev's +/- stats worse than those of his regular linemates? I think it's mainly because he gets more ice time, including minutes with the fourth line, which as a unit has been definitely minus (except when Lapierre was on it). Also, shorthanded goals against the PP unit may drag Kovalev down. The same applies to Ryder, who is -7.

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12-28-2006, 06:03 PM
  #7
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a player that get more icetime isn't supposed to be disadvantaged in the +/- if the team wins more often than it loses.

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12-28-2006, 06:11 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Well, Samsonov is +1 and Plekanec is +1, while Kovalev is -5. Those figures don't suggest that they are being thoroughly dominated by Ovechkin or anybody else.
+/- is never indicative of the play. Kovalev's line has been hemmed in its own zone more than any other line.

The short-handed goals against is a good thought, but there've only been 3, maybe 4 of those, if I remember correctly. I suppose that's enough to account for the fairly minor differences here.

EDIT: Koivu, Higgins and Plekanec have been on the ice for several goals while SH, while Kovalev, Koivu, Higgins and Ryder have been on the ice for a few SH goals against. This would be why Kovalev and Ryder have the worst +/- of the aforementioned players, and Samsonov's +/- is untouched by special teams. Further, Samsonov's the only one of these six players that has consistently been benched when Montreal's up a goal with 10 to go in the third; a time when Montreal has occasionally given up a goal.

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12-28-2006, 06:12 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
a player that get more icetime isn't supposed to be disadvantaged in the +/- if the team wins more often than it loses.
That depends. Samsonov is played less when Montreal's holding on to a lead, and more when Montreal's looking to catch up in goals. Chances are Montreal's going to be in the minus when they're sitting back in a 1-4.

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12-28-2006, 06:15 PM
  #10
Teufelsdreck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
a player that get more icetime isn't supposed to be disadvantaged in the +/- if the team wins more often than it loses.

Where do the extra minutes come from? Besides his PP time, he occasionally gets minutes on the fourth line. Look up the stats of Bégin, Murray, Downey, and Latendresse. Notably, Murray is -8. Lapierre (+5) accounts for the only + on that line, and he was only up for a cup of coffee. (I'd like to see more of Lapierre.)

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12-28-2006, 06:34 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmc View Post
power play and pk don't count in the +/- stats
Shorthanded goal for is +1...shorthanded goal against is -1.

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12-28-2006, 10:30 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Shorthanded goal for is +1...shorthanded goal against is -1.

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12-29-2006, 12:01 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Shorthanded goal for is +1...shorthanded goal against is -1.
SH goal for is +1
SH goal against is 0
PP goal for is 0

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12-29-2006, 12:44 AM
  #14
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he is right.
A short handed goal gives a + to your team and a - to the other team.

But it still has no real impact on a guy playing on the PP other then possibly giving him a minus once in a while. So it still dosent give any weight to the argument from the other guy.

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12-29-2006, 12:59 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Not so.

The only coach that's REALLY burned Montreal/Kovalev is Jacques Martin. He is the only one who's completely beaten Carbonneau and gotten Jokinen's line out there versus Kovalev consistently, despite Carbonneau's best efforts.

.
WRONG

Martin matched Jokinen against Koivu.

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12-29-2006, 01:06 AM
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Kirk Muller
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Such a deceptive stat that takes a lot of digging to find use of.

For example, certain guys play late in the game in close situations. Then there's the pk'ers who give up goals just as a penalty ends which leads to a minus but was basically a PP. Plus/minus doesn't distribute fault so if a defenseman blows a tire and the opponent has a breakaway, everyone gets a minus despite being one players fault. If a goalie lets in a weak 60 footer, again everyone gets a minus. Also, line changes can affect it.

All in all its not a good stat. Watching is the only really way to find out how defensively responsible someone is.

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12-29-2006, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Shorthanded goal for is +1...shorthanded goal against is -1.
I never thought about that.

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12-29-2006, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
WRONG

Martin matched Jokinen against Koivu.
Looking at the shift charts, Jokinen played against both Koivu and Kovalev at many different times throughout the game. Going by the chart its tough to gauge whether there was any line matching at all.

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12-29-2006, 01:54 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Not so.

Koivu's line is the one that gets the opposition's top checking assignments. Occasionally the opposing club will have a top line that they feel comfortable putting up against Koivu, and Carbonneau doesn't mind this, so they go head-to-head (eg. Bonk's line goes up against Savard in Boston, while Koivu goes up against Bergeron).


But, as we saw last night, the opposition has a tendency to throw on their top offensive line against Kovalev's line. Remember the silly line-matchups at the beginning of the game last night, where Carbo would toss Bonk on the ice in anticipation of Ovechkin? Then Hanlon would toss on Sutherby's line (I think). So Carbo would pull Bonk off the ice and toss Kovalev on there. Then 10 seconds later, Hanlon would toss Ovechkin on there since Kovalev was out there. Then Carbo would take Kovalev off and double-shift Bonk, forcing Hanlon to match-up Ovechkin with Bonk.

Hanlon tried to get Ovechkin out there against Kovalev whenever possible.

The only coach that's REALLY burned Montreal/Kovalev is Jacques Martin. He is the only one who's completely beaten Carbonneau and gotten Jokinen's line out there versus Kovalev consistently, despite Carbonneau's best efforts.


As far as these stats go, they're inexplicable as far as I'm concerned. Koivu occasionally gets matched up against scoring lines like Bergeron's in Boston, or Alfredsson in Ottawa, or Briere in Buffalo, but he just as frequently draws the top checking lines of the opposition (Peca in Toronto, Madden in NJ, etc.). Meanwhile, many teams try to expose Kovalev's line's defensive deficiencies.

I suppose some of it is that Montreal plays division rivals all the more now, and Koivu does face more scoring lines within the division than he does outside of it; mainly because division rivals have smaller centers (easier for Koivu to handle), and more scoring depth.

Another factor may be that Montreal likes having Markov on the ice with Kovalev because of how well they connect offensively. Whereas the Souray/Rivet pairing (of past) was more frequently on the ice with the Koivu line.

I don't know. It's interesting, though. Because if you think about when Montreal's hemmed in their own zone, it's Kovalev's line that's being thoroughly dominated.
I think you just proved his point. Other teams might try, but carbs make sure it doesn't happen.

So like he said, Kovalev DOESN'T play against top lines, because Carbo wants Bonk there

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Old
12-29-2006, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znk View Post
he is right.
A short handed goal gives a + to your team and a - to the other team.

But it still has no real impact on a guy playing on the PP other then possibly giving him a minus once in a while. So it still dosent give any weight to the argument from the other guy.
lol he is bloody right, hahaha, gj to the guy who can't control his emoticons

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Old
12-29-2006, 03:43 AM
  #21
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correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't koivu and ryder take a dip in the +/- department when higgins went down to injury?

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12-29-2006, 03:47 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
+/- is never indicative of the play. Kovalev's line has been hemmed in its own zone more than any other line.

The short-handed goals against is a good thought, but there've only been 3, maybe 4 of those, if I remember correctly. I suppose that's enough to account for the fairly minor differences here.

EDIT: Koivu, Higgins and Plekanec have been on the ice for several goals while SH, while Kovalev, Koivu, Higgins and Ryder have been on the ice for a few SH goals against. This would be why Kovalev and Ryder have the worst +/- of the aforementioned players, and Samsonov's +/- is untouched by special teams. Further, Samsonov's the only one of these six players that has consistently been benched when Montreal's up a goal with 10 to go in the third; a time when Montreal has occasionally given up a goal.
I cant back this up with a stat but I'd wager that kovalev's line has given up the most shots to their opposition by far.

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12-29-2006, 12:55 PM
  #23
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After reading all the posts, which are mainly speculative (mine included), I see a lot of subjective impressions. For example, if Kovalev's line is hemmed in more than the others, this can be measured indirectly by the number of shots the opponents take while they're on the ice. I wouldn't know how to access the data to support it. It would also be interesting to know how much time that line spends in the offensive zone.

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12-29-2006, 02:04 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't koivu and ryder take a dip in the +/- department when higgins went down to injury?
Strange as it may seem, they took a dip after he came back.
As for all the other questions and speculation about the +/-, please consult http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs/plusminus.html

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12-29-2006, 02:29 PM
  #25
Mike8
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WRONG

Martin matched Jokinen against Koivu.
Nope. Go check the shift charts and watch the game again. Jokinen exposed Kovalev's line defensively repeatedly.

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