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Sully starting to show he's a rookie coach

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12-02-2003, 03:56 AM
  #1
TheBigBadB
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Sully starting to show he's a rookie coach

I like Sully and he wants to win every game...you can see that...but when the going gets tough..like now..since this is his first slump..you can see a small panic starting...When this happens..He stops using the fourth line..rather have stiffs in the lineup that are Vets rather than going with the potiental of other prospects (Zino, Kutlak)..He uses Thornton and Murray for everything...Doesnt mix up the defense that has been prone to turnovers lately..these are the little things that you have to worry about..Why? cause this happened last year as well...Ftorek was afraid to give rookies a shot last year...especially when the chips were down...He just hoped the Vets would snap out of it..but they never did...is Sully going the same way?

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12-02-2003, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadB
I like Sully and he wants to win every game...you can see that...but when the going gets tough..like now..since this is his first slump..you can see a small panic starting...When this happens..He stops using the fourth line..rather have stiffs in the lineup that are Vets rather than going with the potiental of other prospects (Zino, Kutlak)..He uses Thornton and Murray for everything...Doesnt mix up the defense that has been prone to turnovers lately..these are the little things that you have to worry about..Why? cause this happened last year as well...Ftorek was afraid to give rookies a shot last year...especially when the chips were down...He just hoped the Vets would snap out of it..but they never did...is Sully going the same way?
Sorry, but i dont see a panic yet.

If tehse so called stiffs were playing bad, then ya, i'd want to see some changes, but there not.

I dont think the D has been horrible, but i agree it needs some tweaking, and as much as Ftorek got blamed for the top line being out of gas at the end of the season, i really dont like seeing Thornton and Murray killing penlaties all the time, especially with guys like Rolston, Green, and Zamuner in the line up.

I do like giving Joe more responsibility and seeing what it will do for him, but not all the time.

Kutlak i really doubt is gonna much of an improvement, i'd rather see Morrison and Jurcina just to see how they react, and Bergeron seems to playing quite a bit as a rookie.

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12-02-2003, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bb_fan
Sorry, but i dont see a panic yet.

If tehse so called stiffs were playing bad, then ya, i'd want to see some changes, but there not.

I dont think the D has been horrible, but i agree it needs some tweaking, and as much as Ftorek got blamed for the top line being out of gas at the end of the season, i really dont like seeing Thornton and Murray killing penlaties all the time, especially with guys like Rolston, Green, and Zamuner in the line up.

I do like giving Joe more responsibility and seeing what it will do for him, but not all the time.

Kutlak i really doubt is gonna much of an improvement, i'd rather see Morrison and Jurcina just to see how they react, and Bergeron seems to playing quite a bit as a rookie.

its not a full blown panic, but when you start eliminating the things like putting the fourth line out there for an even shift..or put all your eggs in one basket..like the five on three last game..where they needed someone like Lapointe to just screen the goalie, or having Jilson at the point instead of a clueless Bergeron..and having all these good defensive players only to waste them by having your talent kill penalties..I think its a small sign of the lack of confidence Sully is having with the team..its not huge..its his first slump..but he needs to shake things up a little...

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12-02-2003, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadB
I like Sully and he wants to win every game...you can see that...but when the going gets tough..like now..since this is his first slump..you can see a small panic starting...When this happens..He stops using the fourth line..rather have stiffs in the lineup that are Vets rather than going with the potiental of other prospects (Zino, Kutlak)..He uses Thornton and Murray for everything...Doesnt mix up the defense that has been prone to turnovers lately..these are the little things that you have to worry about..Why? cause this happened last year as well...Ftorek was afraid to give rookies a shot last year...especially when the chips were down...He just hoped the Vets would snap out of it..but they never did...is Sully going the same way?
I agree. Zino, for example, could do Zamuner's job (plus add some offense) for half the money we pay Zamuner.

I'd like to see Zino killing penalties. He plays a heady game defensively. The Bruins' penalty killing has been second-rate this year. Zino would upgrade it.

Zino has the potential to add some offense and jump-start the recently stalled Samsonov. He should dress for every game. Zamuner's ten years older with zero upside. Let him sit in the press box.

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12-02-2003, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadB
I like Sully and he wants to win every game...you can see that...but when the going gets tough..like now..since this is his first slump..you can see a small panic starting...When this happens..He stops using the fourth line..rather have stiffs in the lineup that are Vets rather than going with the potiental of other prospects (Zino, Kutlak)..He uses Thornton and Murray for everything...Doesnt mix up the defense that has been prone to turnovers lately..these are the little things that you have to worry about..Why? cause this happened last year as well...Ftorek was afraid to give rookies a shot last year...especially when the chips were down...He just hoped the Vets would snap out of it..but they never did...is Sully going the same way?
Needless worrying. The Bruins had lost three in a row...big deal. It happens to all teams. Its not like they were blown out of any game. One was an OT loss, the others one goal games.

I am not surprised that people on this board are looking to scapegoat someone after a small bad stretch after playing great hockey for a quarter of the season.

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12-02-2003, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Needless worrying. The Bruins had lost three in a row...big deal. It happens to all teams. Its not like they were blown out of any game. One was an OT loss, the others one goal games.

I am not surprised that people on this board are looking to scapegoat someone after a small bad stretch after playing great hockey for a quarter of the season.
Scapegoating???? We want heads to roll!!!

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12-02-2003, 04:39 AM
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We all said the same thing last year, remember?? "oh its only a little slump"..Heck I was one that was thinking they had one of the best teams in the league last year and thought they could do damage last playoffs as well...I was way off...now I am being much more reserved cause I have seen the same trend as last year...

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12-02-2003, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadB
We all said the same thing last year, remember?? "oh its only a little slump"..Heck I was one that was thinking they had one of the best teams in the league last year and thought they could do damage last playoffs as well...I was way off...now I am being much more reserved cause I have seen the same trend as last year...
So whatever happened last year must happen this year??

If you start a thread talking about how Mike Sullivan is starting to show that he is a rookie coach, great, but bring up a little bit more than he is not using his fourth line as much as he did a couple games ago and not playing Zdenek Kutlak enough. If he isnt playing the fourth line as much as he was, show the ice times. Did they not play as much the last two games, yea, maybe...but did you ever take into account the amount of minutes we were on the PK two games ago, or the amount of time we were on the PP last game? Two big factors in determining fourth line ice time.

I understand being reserved, but people are acting like we are in a free fall. We lost a one goal game to a top team in the East, we lost an OT game on the road to the best team in the West, lost another one goal game to a hot Nashville team with a hot goalie, and tied the Yotes.

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12-02-2003, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
So whatever happened last year must happen this year??

If you start a thread talking about how Mike Sullivan is starting to show that he is a rookie coach, great, but bring up a little bit more than he is not using his fourth line as much as he did a couple games ago and not playing Zdenek Kutlak enough. If he isnt playing the fourth line as much as he was, show the ice times. Did they not play as much the last two games, yea, maybe...but did you ever take into account the amount of minutes we were on the PK two games ago, or the amount of time we were on the PP last game? Two big factors in determining fourth line ice time.

I understand being reserved, but people are acting like we are in a free fall. We lost a one goal game to a top team in the East, we lost an OT game on the road to the best team in the West, lost another one goal game to a hot Nashville team with a hot goalie, and tied the Yotes.
I didnt say its gonna happen like last year...but I see a trend like it...and all the things I mentioned above is in fact true..and I havent even mentioned the fact that they couldnt hold a lead like last year or when a goalie makes some good stops and plays a great game only to let in one soft goal that costs the team a point (i am not going to go indepth about ice time, and give times and stuff cause I am in work)...Do you remember how irate this board was last year because Ftorek refused to change his lineup at all and just hoped they would break out of the funk they were in?? Its early yes I know..but I was a huge supporter last year, and this year I am just a little more reserved...still a huge fan and will pull for them not matter if they sink or rise...its just an observation..its all about opinions right?

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12-02-2003, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
I agree. Zino, for example, could do Zamuner's job (plus add some offense) for half the money we pay Zamuner.

I'd like to see Zino killing penalties. He plays a heady game defensively. The Bruins' penalty killing has been second-rate this year. Zino would upgrade it.

Zino has the potential to add some offense and jump-start the recently stalled Samsonov. He should dress for every game. Zamuner's ten years older with zero upside. Let him sit in the press box.
i thought about this, and agree. zinovjev has a very good skill set to be on the PK. i'm not sure if they've given him a look in practice, but i think they should. zamuner does a good job, but let's be serious- he's not causing any Dmen to crap their pants if they make a bad pass. another question- have we even had a REALLY GOOD scoring chance on the PK this year? remember when rolston used to get like 15 breakaways a year? it's not happening anymore- is it b/c of the new style of PK we play? i'm curious.

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12-02-2003, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigBadB
We all said the same thing last year, remember?? "oh its only a little slump"..Heck I was one that was thinking they had one of the best teams in the league last year and thought they could do damage last playoffs as well...I was way off...now I am being much more reserved cause I have seen the same trend as last year...
The difference is: you and I are smart enough to take the long-term, big-picture view, while others are trying to win the Cup now at any cost. It's an exercise in futility which involves mortgaging the future by, for example, sitting rookies and dealing draft picks for quick-fixes...

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12-02-2003, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
The difference is: you and I are smart enough to take the long-term, big-picture view, while others are trying to win the Cup now at any cost. It's an exercise in futility which involves mortgaging the future by, for example, sitting rookies and dealing draft picks for quick-fixes...
I respect others opinion...I see the glass as half empty sometimes and some see it as half full...neither of us are right or wrong...we both love the team..But some of us give a tough love approach..that would be me

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12-02-2003, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
The difference is: you and I are smart enough to take the long-term, big-picture view, while others are trying to win the Cup now at any cost. It's an exercise in futility which involves mortgaging the future by, for example, sitting rookies and dealing draft picks for quick-fixes...
I agree with you MJ... but it ain't easy...

the little angel on my left shoulder says exactly what you say here..

While the little devil on my right shoulder says.. "you ain't getting any younger "


__________________

BOSTON STRONG !!!
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12-02-2003, 05:36 AM
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why they're better

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
The difference is: you and I are smart enough to take the long-term, big-picture view, while others are trying to win the Cup now at any cost. It's an exercise in futility which involves mortgaging the future by, for example, sitting rookies and dealing draft picks for quick-fixes...

They have goaltending this season, and they didn't have it 2002-'03. That alone, I think, will avoid the Dec.-Jan-Feb-March....meltown this time around.
So, I agree, don't panic.
But there are definite needs here. Not necessarily in order.

xx -- Find a center who can play give and go with Samsonov. He looks like some 100-yard-dash guy out there, surrounded by X-country runners. Dynamic asset, but they need a fast, quick, dynamic pivot. Your job, if you choose to accept it, LFers: find one. Get out there!

xx -- The inability of the D-men to engage consistently and productively in the offense is hurting, big-time. Jillson looks timid. Too many times, 5-on-5, it becomes a three-man Boston attack in the O-zone. That means, efffectively, they are playing 2-men down once they crack the blue blue line. Tough way to play. Every game will be tied, or within a goal, until they find someone back there to BRING IT. Your job again, FIND ONE.

xx -- The 700-Pound line. All that weight is in their feet on a lot of nights. They gotta move. Every shift. EVERYTHING COMES FROM SKATING. Sullivan's only failing to this point: keeping them at 20 minutes of ice on nights they aren't skating to earn that kind of time.

xx -- Time to find out about Raycroft's durability. For rest of this month, he should be in there for 2/3's or 3/4's of the starts. The thought of winning a Cup with a rotation is equal parts romance and folly. Think: Brodeur, Belfour, Hasek. Seems they're almost afraid to find out if Raycroft can be the guy. Heck, with what's in front of him, he ain't going to be hung out like Blackburn was in NY, or M-A-F in Pitt. Maybe he gets on a roll and they stop losing points like hubcaps on Mass. Ave.

Thoughts, LFers?

hoh/kpd

And oh, you can't hide it, I know some of you are still obsessing over the usherettes at the old Forum. It's hidden in your every sentence. You need help.

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12-02-2003, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubofhockey

hoh/kpd

And oh, you can't hide it, I know some of you are still obsessing over the usherettes at the old Forum. It's hidden in your every sentence. You need help.


hey .... I resemble that remark !

actually all good points. one other I want to add.

Sammy has in the past been teamed with Big Joe as his center and Stumpel. This year he has had ummm..let's see... umm... Bueller ? anybody ?

Oh yeah that's right it's been "open mike " night at the Fleet .
And yet we expect his production to go up while the quality of his centermen go down ?


hmmm..seems a bit odd to me.

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12-02-2003, 06:03 AM
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Agree 100% Hub

Agree 100% hub... even on the Raycroft point

It IS almost like they are afraid to give Raycroft the full time gig. IF he doesnt pan out and shows that he cant handle the grind of a LONG season as an NHL #1, they are in some deep trouble in net. Goal is still without question a BIG question mark. Nobody knws if Raycroft can handle it as a #1...he has never proven his ability to be a quality #1. The flip side is that he has never had the chance...but the fact is that we dont know if he can do it. And the Boston brass seem to feel that way as well.

Up front, I agree 100% about the Thornton line and their getting ice time even when they dont deserve it. But, I also feel that limiting their ice can have another spin off benefit...it can FORCE the other 3 lines to produce. Put some pressure on Bergeron and Sammy to produce. Let them know that they MUST produce if they want to play on line 2! And I could care less about how pretty they pass the puck around...fact is that they are not producing. And no matter how you slice it, 2 ES goals in 14 games is AWFUL!

As far as center of line 2...I think you need to go with Zinovjev. I think he is without question the pivot who is best suited for Sammy duty. But first the management team needs to answer this question....

Do you CARE about this season? Is winning TODAY of any sort of importance to the organization? Is your goal to be in the Cup Finals, or at the very least, the ECF?

If the answer to those questions is NO...then go with Zinovjev.

If you answer YES, then maybe its time to explore a move outside of the organization. Maybe its time to pursue moving a piece or 2 off of the current team to pick up a couple other needed parts.

Its always easy to speculate on trades...we dont have to negotiate the deal But maybe looking at a team like Edmonton is the way to go. All players have their flaws...and Mike Comrie is no exception. But just maybe you part ways with a prospect or 2 and a roster guy to acquire a Comrie and say a Jason Smith, Staios or Brewer. Wouldnt at all be an easy task. But sometimes moving pieces that are important can help fill gaps in other areas. Heck, you may have to move guys like Samuelsson, Huml or Stuart...along with a Gill, McGillis or O`Donnell to get something that helps you.

Who knows... I certainly dont. What I am sure of is this....we are starting to see some of the cracks that we forecasted earlier, but had been forgeting about due to our great start!

To some extent, this slide had to be expected! Just as last years slide had to be expected.

As Hub mentioned, last year Ftorek had awful goaltending to deal with. he had negligible talnt in net. His forward group was decimated by injury...and yet he had that team flying for a long stretch.

But reality was bound to set in...when you are grilling steak, you dont expect to taste filet mignon when you are cooking with a lesser grade of beef.

And reality may be starting to set in now! Is this team as good as it has been? Or is the reality that we are not blessed with a top defense, or top depth up front finally hitting us?

We shall see!

Later

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12-02-2003, 06:05 AM
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Its The Norm Wally

Wally, thats the norm!

Didnt we expect Stumpel to do the same thing last year??

We expected a career year out of a guy who the illustrious Huml, Samuelsson, Grosek, Zamuner and Hilbert riding with him!

We continually expect that career years will be repeated and that we can get by with subpar talent in key roles! I see little change in operating procedure.

Later

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12-02-2003, 07:54 AM
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hoh-
do you see zinovjev being worked into the lineup in a bigger role soon? with axelsson out for a few games, i think we need zino's skill on the top 3 lines. also, i wonder if they give him PK time in practice- he has the type of game that could really help us on the kill- any indications of this?

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12-02-2003, 09:05 AM
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hoh/kpd:

I agree 100% on your point about testing Raycroft's durability. My own personal opinion is that they want to continue with Felix so they feel that they're getting their money's worth. They go out and sign a relatively decent-named goaltender then pass the reins to the rookie. I think that O'C is pulling Sully's strings a bit and hopefully he'll stand on his own and give Razor the shot he deserves. If he drops the ball a bit then they still have Felix. Being here in the media crazy Toronto Maple Leafs land it's not the first time that Potvin has had his #1 job handed to someone else.

I also hope that Felix remembers that it's exactly how he got to be a #1 goalie. (Back around '92 or so, Potvin stepped in when Fuhr got injured for the Leafs)

Can't wait until Thursday's tilt against the Leafs!!

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12-02-2003, 09:32 AM
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The only panic I see is coming from the fans, who believe every year will be a game-by-game repeat of the previous year.

Remember the beginning of the season? With the first loss and then some ties? Everyone was talking basement dweller. Then the winning streak started and everyone was talking "one player away from a cup contender". Now, it's "repeat of last year". Hogwash. New team, new year, new coach.

It's a rough streak, gang. It happens. It will end.

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