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12-30-2006, 09:48 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Murderworks View Post
It has much less to do with Richards as a player, and much more with his contract. I am sorry, but you can't pay a guy that much money unless he is the absolute elite. A guy like Ovechkin is worth 7.8. A guy like Crosby, or Malkin, or Broduer, Pronger, Lidstrom. Those guys are worth the money. Say what you will about the younger guys, but they will far surpass Richards in every end of the game when they hit their peak, if they haven't already, and the other guys go without saying. They're the absolute best at their position.

Richards is good, maybe even great. We've seen what he did in the playoffs, he's wickedly consistent, and there's no question the guy is worth some money, but I'm not sure he's worth 7.8, and I'm damn positive he isn't worth it on a team that already has a franchise center in Lecavalier making over 7 million.

I will say it again, you can not win in this new league by with any one area of your team overloaded. You need to roll 4 lines and 6 D that can contribute in their own way. If you have a 4th line that can't score, you need to be able to play them decent minutes to grind down the other team. Unlike Tampa who gets Andre Roy, plays him less than a minute and a half, and he gets 2 minutes in penalties. You need guys who can hold onto the puck in the corner, dig it out, and create chances. Get it on net, make the other team tired. Tampa has 2 lines that can compete, and 2 lines that see very little ice time, and when they do, it could turn into a disaster at any moment.

You need 6 guys on the D end who can control play. You need guys who can make the smart play, not take stupid penalties at crucial moments. You need tough guys out there who will do more than try to pokecheck a guy speeding into the offensive zone with his head down. They need to take the body, get their man off the puck, and make a SMART pass to move it up the ice. Not these sickening 800 foot blind passes our guys seem to love to try.

You need a starting goalie who can make the right save at the right time. No one is asking them to get a shutout every night, but playing on a team like Tampa that gives up VERY few shots, our goaltending should not be an issue. When you're down a goal or two, make that save at the big moment. Give the guys in front of you some confidence. They won't make that save all the time, but our goalies don't make that save most of the time, which has been a big problem.

Bottom line is, if you have guys on every line that can contribute in their own way, you're going to be ok. You don't need three future allstars on every line, just guys who are able work together and as individuals to make their team successful. If you only have a few select guys who can bring something to the table, and a bunch of guys who don' bring too much to the ice, then you find yourself in trouble.

I know there's people out there that read my posts and probably roll their eyes, and that's ok. This team can do better with the right parts, and it's frustrating as a fan to watch them be so much less than they could be. I've said it before, if these guys come out every night, play hard and play smart for A FULL 60 MINUTES, I won't be upset with any losses. It's when they don't play hard, it's when the guys don't play like they care until they're already 2 or 3 goals down. When they come out and play like that, they will get the heat they rightfully deserve, at least from this fan.
I agree with your comments. I still haven't seen any reason why Lecavalier gets a 6 year by and Richards is toast after 40 games?

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12-30-2006, 09:53 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Tokala View Post
I agree with your comments. I still haven't seen any reason why Lecavalier gets a 6 year by and Richards is toast after 40 games?
Maybe because it's now expected that Brad improves each year and at 26 years old with his new contract and the big PR machine that the Lightning have been pimping him with, he doesn't get a free ride. Plus all Brad's issues are now post-Cup. While most of Vinny's issues were pre-Cup.

And the biggest reason is:

You don't get a free ride when you have the 2nd highest salary in the league but are #3 in scoring on your roster.

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12-30-2006, 10:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Tokala View Post
I agree with your comments. I still haven't seen any reason why Lecavalier gets a 6 year by and Richards is toast after 40 games?

If he was at 4 to 5 million a year I would agree. But the sheer size of his contract is killing the rest of the team. In other words, if he was being paid what he is worth I don't think he would be catching so much heat.

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12-30-2006, 01:35 PM
  #79
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You know, that Mike guy who commented on EE's blog here seems to be on to something. He sounds like both a gentleman and a scholar.

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12-30-2006, 03:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by gobolt7 View Post
You know, that Mike guy who commented on EE's blog here seems to be on to something. He sounds like both a gentleman and a scholar.
You know, that guy, Ken, a couple comment before Mike seemed to make some points also.

I'm not asking people to give Richards a free pass, but Lecavalier had one for 6 years and Marty had one for 1 year. I guess I expect a little more patience for Brad. I'm sure that we could all recap Brad's contract negotiation:

Feaster: "Hi, it's Jay."
Brad's Agent: "Hi. Are you ready to start?"
Feaster: "I'm not sure where to start. How about $7.8M for 4 years?"
Brad's Agent: "Sure. When do we sign?" Under his breath to Brad: What a dumbass.

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12-30-2006, 03:56 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Tokala View Post
You know, that guy, Ken, a couple comment before Mike seemed to make some points also.
LOL, we should try to get him to join us, he can see our venting first hand since we reply to his blog.

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12-30-2006, 03:59 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by gobolt7 View Post
LOL, we should try to get him to join us, he can see our venting first hand since we reply to his blog.
Odd part is, he does read some of the message boards. He's good about emailing you back or calling you back also if you contact him.

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12-30-2006, 04:04 PM
  #83
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Odd part is, he does read some of the message boards. He's good about emailing you back or calling you back also if you contact him.
Really? I may have to take a direct approach on my anti-Boyleism.

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12-30-2006, 05:23 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I wasn't going to post in this forum again, but my curiosity is just killing me. What "free pass" is it that you're talking about?

The coach blasted V4 at every opportunity for 2 years, including a memorable incident in Canada which led to a meeting in the hotel during which the coach apologized in front of the whole team.

The coach used the media (newspaper, radio & television) as his method to belittle V4 to the point where the captain spoke up on the radio saying he should lay off, and the GM specifically instructed him to cease the media bashing.

V4 has been criticized in the media for years, even *this* year having a reporter in the Times call for him to be traded and one in the Trib ask how long the good play would last.

He has been villified by the fans for years, even to this day being called out for a a single bad pass or attempted fancy play. (How many times even this year have we heard, "I don't dislike Vinny, but...") Was he not nicknamed "Spinny" this year?

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like you're saying Vinny has had himself a sweet, wonderful ride when it has been anything but.

As for Marty, I don't remember much of a free pass, either, as he was soundly criticized, the GM was blasted for his contract and there were many, many pleas to trade him last year and into this year.

We're in a cap world now and when you're the second highest paid player in the league, patience is something that is necessarily in very short supply. There's not a lot of it to go around when you're in last place in your division, either. Brad has been publicly named as the cornerstone of the team and its future captain, the core around which the team will be built. I guess people just expect him to live up to it.

Anyway, sorry to intrude into the group here. Back to lurking.
Agreed. Well said.

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12-30-2006, 10:53 PM
  #85
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I didn't see any free passes either...Vinnie might be popular overall, but he took a lot of grief from all quarters at one time or another. St Louis scores 30 goals and is considered a disapointment.

Brad is actually on a pace for a career high in goals. Maybe no Modin and a lot less St Louis as his wingers has hurt his assist totals. Not excusing his overall play which seems like his mind is somewhere else, but players go thru this from time to time. I think the frustrating thing is that Brad is the last player you'd expect this from (either the extended scoring clump or the flat play). But much like Prospal, he could snap out of it at any moment.

Having said that, he does make a lot more money than he should (never scored 30 goals or had 100 points or won an MVP or scoring title). And the team might have to move someone to retool the overall roster. If a team really wanted Richards enough to give up a lot, I'd hope we'd at least listen.

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12-31-2006, 01:44 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I wasn't going to post in this forum again, but my curiosity is just killing me. What "free pass" is it that you're talking about?

The coach blasted V4 at every opportunity for 2 years, including a memorable incident in Canada which led to a meeting in the hotel during which the coach apologized in front of the whole team.

The coach used the media (newspaper, radio & television) as his method to belittle V4 to the point where the captain spoke up on the radio saying he should lay off, and the GM specifically instructed him to cease the media bashing.

V4 has been criticized in the media for years, even *this* year having a reporter in the Times call for him to be traded and one in the Trib ask how long the good play would last.

He has been villified by the fans for years, even to this day being called out for a a single bad pass or attempted fancy play. (How many times even this year have we heard, "I don't dislike Vinny, but...") Was he not nicknamed "Spinny" this year?

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like you're saying Vinny has had himself a sweet, wonderful ride when it has been anything but.

As for Marty, I don't remember much of a free pass, either, as he was soundly criticized, the GM was blasted for his contract and there were many, many pleas to trade him last year and into this year.

We're in a cap world now and when you're the second highest paid player in the league, patience is something that is necessarily in very short supply. There's not a lot of it to go around when you're in last place in your division, either. Brad has been publicly named as the cornerstone of the team and its future captain, the core around which the team will be built. I guess people just expect him to live up to it.

Anyway, sorry to intrude into the group here. Back to lurking.


Thanks again! So many times you express my feelings so much better than I do!!

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Old
01-01-2007, 11:11 PM
  #87
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First off, post #84 in this thread by Boltsfan2029 is very well put, nice.

Quote:
Brad is actually on a pace for a career high in goals. Maybe no Modin and a lot less St Louis as his wingers has hurt his assist totals.
Good points....

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Originally Posted by Cory Sarich Fan View Post
I don't necessarily agree with that statement......Give up Richards and you lose a 7.8 million dollar cap hit and 31 points.
Richards does a ton more than just put up points...but if you want to talk about points, keep this in mind....Brad always has big second halfs, look at last season alone he put up 42 pts across 29 games from Feb to April, on route to a career season.

Furthermore, we can talk about "one of the big three" being traded till we're blue in the face and pass out but the simple fact of the matter those three aren't going anywhere. They were signed for big contracts for a reason, whether or not some of us like that fact is a different story. Marty and Vinny are worth every dime they're making this season and more. Another thing to keep in mind is the NHL has already announced the salary cap is going to be moved up this season.

Look up and down the Eastern Conference standings....this is a conference that has been nicknamed "the wide open east" this season. Only 8 pts seperates 5th place Carolina from 13th place Tampa Bay. That is four games...and Carolina has actually played 2 more games.


Last edited by Yzerplan: 01-01-2007 at 11:35 PM.
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01-02-2007, 10:42 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I wasn't going to post in this forum again, but my curiosity is just killing me. What "free pass" is it that you're talking about?

The coach blasted V4 at every opportunity for 2 years, including a memorable incident in Canada which led to a meeting in the hotel during which the coach apologized in front of the whole team.

The coach used the media (newspaper, radio & television) as his method to belittle V4 to the point where the captain spoke up on the radio saying he should lay off, and the GM specifically instructed him to cease the media bashing.

V4 has been criticized in the media for years, even *this* year having a reporter in the Times call for him to be traded and one in the Trib ask how long the good play would last.

He has been villified by the fans for years, even to this day being called out for a a single bad pass or attempted fancy play. (How many times even this year have we heard, "I don't dislike Vinny, but...") Was he not nicknamed "Spinny" this year?

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like you're saying Vinny has had himself a sweet, wonderful ride when it has been anything but.

As for Marty, I don't remember much of a free pass, either, as he was soundly criticized, the GM was blasted for his contract and there were many, many pleas to trade him last year and into this year.

We're in a cap world now and when you're the second highest paid player in the league, patience is something that is necessarily in very short supply. There's not a lot of it to go around when you're in last place in your division, either. Brad has been publicly named as the cornerstone of the team and its future captain, the core around which the team will be built. I guess people just expect him to live up to it.

Anyway, sorry to intrude into the group here. Back to lurking.

Thank you.

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01-02-2007, 11:08 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I wasn't going to post in this forum again, but my curiosity is just killing me. What "free pass" is it that you're talking about?

The coach blasted V4 at every opportunity for 2 years, including a memorable incident in Canada which led to a meeting in the hotel during which the coach apologized in front of the whole team.

The coach used the media (newspaper, radio & television) as his method to belittle V4 to the point where the captain spoke up on the radio saying he should lay off, and the GM specifically instructed him to cease the media bashing.

V4 has been criticized in the media for years, even *this* year having a reporter in the Times call for him to be traded and one in the Trib ask how long the good play would last.

He has been villified by the fans for years, even to this day being called out for a a single bad pass or attempted fancy play. (How many times even this year have we heard, "I don't dislike Vinny, but...") Was he not nicknamed "Spinny" this year?

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like you're saying Vinny has had himself a sweet, wonderful ride when it has been anything but.

As for Marty, I don't remember much of a free pass, either, as he was soundly criticized, the GM was blasted for his contract and there were many, many pleas to trade him last year and into this year.

We're in a cap world now and when you're the second highest paid player in the league, patience is something that is necessarily in very short supply. There's not a lot of it to go around when you're in last place in your division, either. Brad has been publicly named as the cornerstone of the team and its future captain, the core around which the team will be built. I guess people just expect him to live up to it.

Anyway, sorry to intrude into the group here. Back to lurking.
Yes, they have been trounced by the fans and the media. They weren't being ridden out of town after 40 games though.

My question is why was everyone so willing to dump Brad so quickly, not how Vinny and Marty were criticized. There's a big difference between getting bad press and everyone wanting to trade a player. I guess that difference is about 15 points and $800K.

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01-02-2007, 12:26 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "free pass." I would point out, tho, that MANY people have been calling for Vincent to be traded for many years (as I mentioned above, even one beat writer this season) and for Marty to be traded for 2 years.

My best guess as to Richards:

2nd highest paid player in the National Hockey League + public declaration of god-like status by GM & coach + prior consistency = higher expectations.

Salary cap + threat of budget reduction + next-to-last in division + drop in production of linemates (starting last year) + dropoff in level of play (not just point-wise, his apparent lack of effort has been pointed out) = less patience.
I didn't start the "free pass" thing, that was missK.

Well, I did nickname him "Spinny". I haven't really said trade him, but I have suggested that he would be the one the team would trade. More of an asset vs ROI scenario.

As for Marty, I was in the "sign Khabibulin=let Marty walk" camp. That was based on keeping a #1 goalie and letting a 30 year-old winger go.

I understand the concern because I don't want to see a gutted Lightning next year. However, I think it's way too early to suggest dumping Brad Richards. I'm just looking for people to give me ideas why they want to trade him off so early in the year. Thanks for your input.

There's probably more wrong with this team than trading Brad for a #1 defenseman would fix. There's still issues with a weak defensive corp, 3rd/4th lines that produce darn near nothing, and a goalie tandem that seem to be erratic, at best.

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01-02-2007, 01:58 PM
  #91
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If it comes down to trade one of them i much rather trade Brad, i just think we would lose a lot more if we trade Vinny. It would be dumb to trade a guy that is working as hard as Vinny is, and looks like finally he is reaching his potential, why trade him now? I know lots fans dislike Vinny for whatever reason, but i think even they can appreciate what he is doing for this team.

Having said that i don't want to see Brad go, but when the coaching staff says he is the future of this team people will expect more of him.

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01-02-2007, 02:12 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Maria View Post
If it comes down to trade one of them i much rather trade Brad, i just think we would lose a lot more if we trade Vinny. It would be dumb to trade a guy that is working as hard as Vinny is, and looks like finally he is reaching his potential, why trade him now? I know lots fans dislike Vinny for whatever reason, but i think even they can appreciate what he is doing for this team.

Having said that i don't want to see Brad go, but when the coaching staff says he is the future of this team people will expect more of him.
I agree. I just think people are being hasty about trading Brad. A knee-jerk reaction trade that "might" get the team into the playoffs this season, could spell disaster the next couple of years. I suppose a similar situation is my take on Boyle.

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01-02-2007, 03:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by The Hockey Hitman View Post

Richards does a ton more than just put up points...

Like what?

He doesn't hit anyone. He doesn't play defense very well. He has been horrible on the point during PP's this year. He's not fast. I'm just wondering what you define a "ton more" as. And I do watch quite a bit of Lightning hockey (haven't missed a game in about 3 seasons). So if he isn't putting up alot of points what exactly is he doing to help the team? I'm just curious.

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01-02-2007, 04:43 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
The coach blasted V4 at every opportunity for 2 years, including a memorable incident in Canada which led to a meeting in the hotel during which the coach apologized in front of the whole team.

The coach used the media (newspaper, radio & television) as his method to belittle V4 to the point where the captain spoke up on the radio saying he should lay off, and the GM specifically instructed him to cease the media bashing.
Because, yes -- it was getting out way of hand...and personal.

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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
V4 has been criticized in the media for years, even *this* year having a reporter in the Times call for him to be traded and one in the Trib ask how long the good play would last.
My biggest peeve with VL4 has been his inconsistency. Being the cynic I am, I also wonder when he's going to hit the wall. If he doesn't, then great. I'll shut up about it. I'll be as glad as anyone else, prolly more if he actually breaks through. It's like being a mother and watching your child not live up to his potential. THAT'S how I personally feel about it. There; I said it. And some of us can only take the excuses or whatnot for so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
He has been villified by the fans for years, even to this day being called out for a a single bad pass or attempted fancy play. (How many times even this year have we heard, "I don't dislike Vinny, but...") Was he not nicknamed "Spinny" this year?
I don't dislike the guy personally, but that doesn't mean I'm only going to say nice things about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like you're saying Vinny has had himself a sweet, wonderful ride when it has been anything but.
Well, for all the inconsistencies, the fits and starts, the "disappearing act" -- he's still here, meanwhile Brad has a slow season and he's being thrown under the bus. Yes--in comparison he's had a sweet ride. Yes, I agree that whatever personal crap between VL4 and Torts got blown out of all sense of proportion and should have stayed way out of the press, but still. And we all know why VL4's the bigger target -- it started all the way back when he was billed as the 2nd Coming when he was drafted. No, that's not VL4's fault, neither, but still.

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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
As for Marty, I don't remember much of a free pass, either, as he was soundly criticized, the GM was blasted for his contract and there were many, many pleas to trade him last year and into this year.
And there are still those whining about it. Maybe not so much in this forum, but elsewhere? Oh, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
We're in a cap world now and when you're the second highest paid player in the league, patience is something that is necessarily in very short supply. There's not a lot of it to go around when you're in last place in your division, either. Brad has been publicly named as the cornerstone of the team and its future captain, the core around which the team will be built. I guess people just expect him to live up to it.
OF COURSE we do. Same with VL4. Same with all the "big names". That's the nature (and some people's reaction) to hype, baby. Either live up to it...

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01-02-2007, 07:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Tokala View Post
Yes, they have been trounced by the fans and the media. They weren't being ridden out of town after 40 games though.

In your very next post you admit to wanting to dump the then defending MVP and spark plug of this team BEFORE he even signed his contract. And you don't understand why a few people might be a little upset that Richards is playing the worst hockey of his career AFTER he signed the biggest contract in Lightning history and became one of the highest paid players in the NHL?

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01-02-2007, 10:05 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by LastoftheBrunnenG View Post
In your very next post you admit to wanting to dump the then defending MVP and spark plug of this team BEFORE he even signed his contract. And you don't understand why a few people might be a little upset that Richards is playing the worst hockey of his career AFTER he signed the biggest contract in Lightning history and became one of the highest paid players in the NHL?
That's correct. I looked at the choice of keeping Khabibulin or St. Louis and thought that the wiser choice was a #1 goaltender. The team has struggled since then to be much more than .500. I don't think that is because if who they kept, but rather the one guy that they lost.

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