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Old
12-31-2006, 07:47 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Lou is God View Post
But if you look at the last three years I think you guys have done more than OK:

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000048.html

I think the reason before for the Rangers bad drafting from 2003 and before that was that they were always so preoccupied with signing high priced FA's instead of building within and it showed, but in 2004 they started their rebuild from within and you just got to give it more time, this stuff just doesn't happen overnight.
What was missing was the infrastructure, a scouting staff. Once people like clark and murray have been added our drafting is much much better.

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12-31-2006, 07:55 AM
  #52
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Hugh Jessiman doesn't want it bad enough.He is a spoiled rich from CT.If the hockey thing doesn't work out,Hugh will go back to school and then get a job working for his dad in the financial industry

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12-31-2006, 08:01 AM
  #53
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The draft is not an exact science.Some picks will make it and some won't.You can go back and look at the drafts from every sport

Scouts make mistakes.It's easy to look back at a draft record for the past ten seasons and nitpick

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12-31-2006, 08:25 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
What was missing was the infrastructure, a scouting staff. Once people like clark and murray have been added our drafting is much much better.
Tim Murray should stick to the amateur scouting.He also has some pro scouting duties and recommended the Rangers trade for Sandis Ozolinsh and sign Matt Cullen.Murray,Ozolinsh and Cullen were all members of Anaheim at the same time

Don Maloney and Tom Renney made the Jessiman selection

Clark was promoted to chief scout in 2005 and Murray was hired in 2005

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12-31-2006, 08:45 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lou is God View Post
in 2004 they started their rebuild from within
Seven of the nine current amateur scouts were on staff in 2002; some pre-date 2002. The staff that scouted and selected Falardeau and Jessiman is the staff that's doing the same work now:
Ernie Gare
Rich Brown
Shanon Sather
Andre Beaulieu
Jan Gajdosic
Gord Clarke
Ray Clearwater
Christer Rockstrom

There hasn't been any scouting rebuild; that is a myth.

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12-31-2006, 10:11 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Hugh Jessiman doesn't want it bad enough.He is a spoiled rich from CT.If the hockey thing doesn't work out,Hugh will go back to school and then get a job working for his dad in the financial industry
Aren't you glad Sather and Company picked us a Ranger fan instead of the right player? 2003 NHL DRAFT, where the Rangers organization makes dreams come true

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Old
12-31-2006, 10:31 AM
  #57
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Maybe it's worth calling him up to the Rangers for a few games, putting him on a 4th line with Hollweg-Betts and basically saying "sink or swim"

I'm with you, give him 10 games. See what he does. If nothing get rid of him.

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12-31-2006, 10:33 AM
  #58
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Hey Edge, do you know if any other organizations had Jessiman on their radar in 2003? I remember the Rangers being ridiculously high on him, and I have a vague recollection of some other teams buying into the whole "Huge Specimen" thing, but do you have any idea where he would have been chosen has the Rangers not picked him up?

I mean, this pick was clearly a mistake, but Hugh would have been some other team's first rounder if the Rangers passed him up right?

I wonder if Sather and Co. are bothered by this, also. The NHL Entry Draft is like playing Fantasy Football except that it actually counts for something. I know I drive myself crazy when I look back on players I missed out on drafting. If I was Sather I would have a hrd time sleeping at night watching the likes of Getzlaf, Parise, etc...

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12-31-2006, 02:30 PM
  #59
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I'm with you, give him 10 games. See what he does. If nothing get rid of him.
It can't hurt! He can't sink any further off the radar than he already has. And who knows, it might light a fire under his ***!

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12-31-2006, 02:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Seven of the nine current amateur scouts were on staff in 2002; some pre-date 2002. The staff that scouted and selected Falardeau and Jessiman is the staff that's doing the same work now:
Ernie Gare
Rich Brown
Shanon Sather
Andre Beaulieu
Jan Gajdosic
Gord Clarke
Ray Clearwater
Christer Rockstrom

There hasn't been any scouting rebuild; that is a myth.
Looking over Sather's hirings I found that only 2-3 scouts were retained by sather. I think they were Ray Clearwater (he may go back as far as Craig Patrick), Christer Rockstrom who Smith brought in to replace Lars Sjoberg. It appears that Sather brought with him from Edmonton and elsewhere in 2000, Ernie Gare, Bob Crocker (since gone), Andre Beaulieu, Harry Howell (gone), Gilles Ledger(pro scout), Shanon Sather. He added Renney as DOPP and Al Coates as the Hartford GM and resigned Maloney the same year. Brad Park was added as were Rich Brown, Dave Brown and Jamie MacDonald in 2001. Gordie Clark, who was responsible for many of the Isles great drafts under Milbury was added in 2002, as a pro scout. He did not move over the amateur side until 8/05. I think he added Jan Gajdoski as an additional full time european scout in 2003, along with Martin Madden, Jr. We added Tim Murray and Nick Fotiu in July 05. Vladimir Lutchenko was added I think this year (06). Both Murray and Clark were DOPP's as well. I don't know of many organizations that could afford to have 18 scouts on their payroll but it sure looks like we've spent an awful lot of money on the development end of the organization and a lot has happened to the makeup of that staff since the June 03 draft.

Of the amateur scouts, Clark, Murray, Brown, Beulieu, Gare, Clearwater, Dorion, Gajdoski, Lutchenko, Sather, Rockstrom, I see where Lutchenko (06) Clark (05), Murray (05), Dorion (05), Gajdoski (03) were all added after the June 03 draft. Our more recent drafts have been impacted greatly by people by the newer additions to the amateur scouting staff.


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12-31-2006, 03:49 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Looking over Sather's hirings I found that only 2-3 scouts were retained by sather. I think they were Ray Clearwater (he may go back as far as Craig Patrick), Christer Rockstrom who Smith brought in to replace Lars Sjoberg. It appears that Sather brought with him from Edmonton and elsewhere in 2000, Ernie Gare, Bob Crocker (since gone), Andre Beaulieu, Harry Howell (gone), Gilles Ledger(pro scout), Shanon Sather. He added Renney as DOPP and Al Coates as the Hartford GM and resigned Maloney the same year. Brad Park was added as were Rich Brown, Dave Brown and Jamie MacDonald in 2001. Gordie Clark, who was responsible for many of the Isles great drafts under Milbury was added in 2002, as a pro scout. He did not move over the amateur side until 8/05. I think he added Jan Gajdoski as an additional full time european scout in 2003, along with Martin Madden, Jr. We added Tim Murray and Nick Fotiu in July 05. Vladimir Lutchenko was added I think this year (06). Both Murray and Clark were DOPP's as well. I don't know of many organizations that could afford to have 18 scouts on their payroll but it sure looks like we've spent an awful lot of money on the development end of the organization and a lot has happened to the makeup of that staff since the June 03 draft.

Of the amateur scouts, Clark, Murray, Brown, Beulieu, Gare, Clearwater, Dorion, Gajdoski, Lutchenko, Sather, Rockstrom, I see where Lutchenko (06) Clark (05), Murray (05), Dorion (05), Gajdoski (03) were all added after the June 03 draft. Our more recent drafts have been impacted greatly by people by the newer additions to the amateur scouting staff.
Wow!!!.....

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Old
12-31-2006, 04:48 PM
  #62
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what i didn't get is how they could have possibly thought jessiman wouldn't be around later and trade down if they were so intent on getting jessiman. they could have gotten an additional 2nd round pick from someone wanting to trade up to get dustin brown at that spot.

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12-31-2006, 08:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by synergy27 View Post
Hey Edge, do you know if any other organizations had Jessiman on their radar in 2003? I remember the Rangers being ridiculously high on him, and I have a vague recollection of some other teams buying into the whole "Huge Specimen" thing, but do you have any idea where he would have been chosen has the Rangers not picked him up?

I mean, this pick was clearly a mistake, but Hugh would have been some other team's first rounder if the Rangers passed him up right?

I wonder if Sather and Co. are bothered by this, also. The NHL Entry Draft is like playing Fantasy Football except that it actually counts for something. I know I drive myself crazy when I look back on players I missed out on drafting. If I was Sather I would have a hrd time sleeping at night watching the likes of Getzlaf, Parise, etc...
You know I've heard, mainly on here that other teams were looking at him, but I have to admit that I asked around pretty extensivly (admitedly because I was kind of pissed) and I never heard anyone back it up. I heard around 20-24 from people I talked to and have talked to in the years since.

Now that doesn't mean it is gospel, but I am starting to wonder if that was just something that started on here that become accepted so to speak. Frankly some of the team's that were supposedly going to "jump all over Hugh" were teams I happened to have some VERY close friends in.

When all is said and done I just can't see Hugh going anywhere near as high as when the Rangers took him (same thing with Lee who everyone I talked to had pegged as a middle third round pick at best, most likely late third).

Simply put I think the Rangers rolled the dice in 02 and 03. Without getting into whether they should've or any other factor I do believe that's about what it came down to. Whether people think it was the right thing to do or not is the debate that rages, but at the end of the day I believe that's what it was and that any talk about someone else taking him that high is just that, talk. Of course it makes the whole pill easier to swallow if you believe that, but for me personally, I don't.

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12-31-2006, 08:22 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
what i didn't get is how they could have possibly thought jessiman wouldn't be around later and trade down if they were so intent on getting jessiman. they could have gotten an additional 2nd round pick from someone wanting to trade up to get dustin brown at that spot.
Well it depends on if THEY believed he was going to be there. There's a lot of talk during the drafts as teams try to psych each other out.

Unfortunatly for the boys in blue, it turns out the other teams were probably bluffing.

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12-31-2006, 08:28 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Gottokeeponrisin View Post
Aren't you glad Sather and Company picked us a Ranger fan instead of the right player? 2003 NHL DRAFT, where the Rangers organization makes dreams come true
lmfao... that hurts

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12-31-2006, 09:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
I don't know of many organizations that could afford to have 18 scouts on their payroll but it sure looks like we've spent an awful lot of money on the development end of the organization
Yes but of course the pro scouts aren't on the "development end" of the organization, are they? Which is why you pointed out that Gord Clarke wasn't an amateur scout until 8/05.

The Rangers have 11 staffers in amateur scouting not 18, simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
I think he added Jan Gajdoski as an additional full time european scout in 2003, along with Martin Madden, Jr.
No. Madden joined Neil Smith’s scouting staff in ’97 and was director of personnel at the end of Smith’s tenure. In fact it was Madden, Smith’s guy, who was running the draft in 2000 when Lundqvist and Dom Moore were selected.

Gajdosik was amateur scouting for the club as early as 2002, so he is by no means part of a recent rebuilding of scouting talent. In fact I cannot find his hiring date and he might well also be a Smith hire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
and a lot has happened to the makeup of that staff since the June 03 draft.
Actually a lot less has happened than you claim (see above and below), but even if a lot HAD happened, that still misses the point. There has not been a rebuilding of the scouting staff since the purge of ’04. Sather had his staff lined up by 2002, and with the exception of Dorion, Murray, and Lutchenko, he has stuck with that staff. In fact if Dave Brown had not been hired away by the Flyers in June of 2006, Lutchenko might not even be here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
Of the amateur scouts, Clark, Murray, Brown, Beulieu, Gare, Clearwater, Dorion, Gajdoski, Lutchenko, Sather, Rockstrom, I see where Lutchenko (06) Clark (05), Murray (05), Dorion (05), Gajdoski (03) were all added after the June 03 draft. Our more recent drafts have been impacted greatly by people by the newer additions to the amateur scouting staff.
Well for starters you see wrong on Gajdosik. He is credited with pushing hard for Prucha's selection in 2002, so he was obviously not "added after the June 03 draft." In fact as I noted above, he might not even be a Sather hire. (But I'd love it if someone could track this down.)

What you’re proving here is that 4 of the 11 current amateur scouting personnel have “impacted greatly” on the draft – and this assumes that Renney is still not offering input (a doubtful proposition given why he was hired in the first place and his current place in the organization) and that Clarke wasn’t already giving input in 2002 when he was hired (a doubtful proposition given, as you pointed out, his successful body of work as an amateur scout with the Isles).

No. Things on the amateur scouting side haven’t changed nearly as much as you’d like to paint them. Realistically, 3 of the 11 members of the current scouting staff weren’t doing their thing in 2002 - the year of Lee Falardeau – and changing 3 of 11 staffers isn’t changing the dynamics of the amateur scouting staff.

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01-01-2007, 02:27 AM
  #67
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This issue is just getting beaten to death. It's over. Jessiman is a bust. Let's move on. The important thing now is how well '04 and '05 turn out. As Bad as we did in a talent laden '03 draft, I think the next two years may have salvaged a bad situation somewhat.

It's tempting to reflect on who we should have had, but it drives me crazy. I'd rather focus on the future. We have a number of prospects that show good promise and a draft this year that is nicely stacked.

We really seem to be lacking in two key areas: top six forwards and goal tending. What do you guys feel we need to look for most.

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01-01-2007, 03:24 AM
  #68
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This news really depresses me.

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Old
01-01-2007, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think you have to have one or the other.

Losing and not getting players is the hockey equivalent of the plague.

What also hurts is that the Rangers have some REALLY poor drafts in there as well.

I mean let's go back and look at an 7 year span:

96 was a complete bust

97 produced one NHL player and I'm not convinced Holmqvist is a legit NHL goalie.

98 Produced a third line center and a backup goalie (who I put with Holmqvist), for other teams.

99 was about a total bust.

2000 is salvaged by Lundqvist, Moore is a nice third line player.

2001 could've been great, but so far only looks good. Had they kept Zidlicky it'd have been more but the Rangers essentially got Tyutin and a fourth line banger out of the draft.

2002 is salvaged only by Prucha.

I mean that's just downright pitiful.

There's bad drafting and then there's the Rangers.

When you miss the playoffs for 7 years and pick no lower than 12th, you've gotta come up with more than that.
You can go even further back, to the full regime of Neil Smith. What a dreadful disaster that was. Had they at least had mediocre to OK drafts, then when the wheels fell off after 97, there would have been some talent and youth in the organization. Not so, and things went kablooie.

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01-01-2007, 11:55 AM
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We really seem to be lacking in two key areas: top six forwards and goal tending. What do you guys feel we need to look for most.
I'm hard pressed to think of anybody in the Rangers organization who is a sure thing top 6 forward, so that has to be addressed. Unless the Rangers tank, it'll be another mid first round pick this year, which means you get talent, but it needs to be developed. The Rangers have had their share of picks like that the last several years.

Goaltending is fine right now, although I suspect Montoya will be dealt, and maybe a top 6 forward or a d-man will come back in a potential trade. Then the nets would have to be addressed again, simply to make sure you have enough bodies. They could also potentially sign a goaltender out of college instead of going the draft route.

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01-01-2007, 03:09 PM
  #71
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OK, its official can we finally say this guy is dead to us and please no lets trade jessiman and someone else for someone good because noone wants this guy, he obviously cant skate in the AHL never mind NHL. I predict you will see him in 2 years playing in Italy or Germany.

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01-01-2007, 07:12 PM
  #72
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As for Jessiman himself, i really dont care anymore. I lost hope for the kid after last season when he was up and down with the Pack. It was great to hear the Pep talk that Shanny gave to him in Training Camp, but obviously it meant nothing to him. Hopefully it hits this kid to put some more effort into his career. But i Hope he never plays a game with the Rangers, bc there are so many other guys that deserve the chance before this slouch.

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01-01-2007, 07:59 PM
  #73
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OK, its official can we finally say this guy is dead to us and please no lets trade jessiman and someone else for someone good because noone wants this guy, he obviously cant skate in the AHL never mind NHL. I predict you will see him in 2 years playing in Italy or Germany.
He will retire before he plays in Europe, IMO. Too many opportunities to make a lot of money with family.

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01-01-2007, 08:39 PM
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Jessiman oh Jessiman where are you?

Scouts take the hit on this one.

but hey. The last (semi) risk the Rangers took from Connecticut was, a guy who wore #2.

guess its a wash form that state.

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01-01-2007, 09:45 PM
  #75
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As for Jessiman himself, i really dont care anymore. I lost hope for the kid after last season when he was up and down with the Pack. It was great to hear the Pep talk that Shanny gave to him in Training Camp, but obviously it meant nothing to him. Hopefully it hits this kid to put some more effort into his career. But i Hope he never plays a game with the Rangers, bc there are so many other guys that deserve the chance before this slouch.
Good lord, you make it sound like Jessiman is somehow doing this on purpose! Here is someone who has done more work from the time he's 12-13 years old than most of us do before we're 40. How many mornings did he get up a some crazy hour to go practice at 5AM (or do you think his family rented a rink so he could practice with his team at a nice civilized hour?), how many times did he pass up hanging with friends so he could squeeze some homework and actually get admitted to an Ivy League school (or perhaps someone here heard his family gave a building to Dartmouth so he'd get admitted?), How many summers has he spent working out 4-6 hours a day in the hopes of making it to training camp and not get cut on the first day?

Drafting young kids at 17 or 18 is not a science, there is no way to tell who's going to make it. Jessiman has tried very hard (and gotten a lot further than most kids do), he just probably doesn't have what it takes to be an NHL player. There's no reason call him names or suggest he's just dabbling in hockey before going out and landing some no-show job that pays 6 figures in the first year.

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