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Old
12-31-2006, 11:11 AM
  #26
True Blue Bleed Blue
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Agreed. I think Hollweg can fill the purpose of what Orr did tonight. They run Jagr, we send Hollweg to level their star, in a more clean way but still with a message. Ortmeyer can probably also be useful for this. How about a double check?
I can never see Ortmeyer being a big hitter. He's a hustler who finishes every check...but he can never strike fear into the opposition with the way he hits. In no way is this bashing him because he is one of my favorite guys on the team...but my only thing is...if you wanna replace Orr that's fine...but then REPLACE him...don't bring in a guy who doesn't do what Orr does

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12-31-2006, 11:14 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Didn't notice this thread before, so I'll repost my thoughts from tonight's game thread here, this one seems to be more appropriate.

As long as games are refereed like tonight cheapshots will happen. Brashear elbows Jagr in the face - no call. Orr high-sticks AO in the face - 2 min. charging and 5 minutes for fighting. No attempt to injure, no misconduct. The Caps wind up with an instigator call, game misconduct, fighting major and unsportsmanlike conduct as a result of Orr's actions. We end up with a PP goal. I don't see cheap play stopping anytime soon with decisions like these. Just something to accept and move on.

Orr is not a good hockey player. If you don't want him in the line-up for this reason, it's a valid point. However, there are very few enforcers/"gritty" players/call them whatever that don't end up doing something stupid/cheap once in awhile in the heat of the game. Most people here briing up Neil as the type of guy they want instead. Well, his hit on Prucha last night was just as dirty. Headhunting while he left his feet. Tucker does something like Orr's hit at least once a week. Domi has a history of doing worse things. I can go on. Oddly enough, the ref didn't think it was a big deal. 2 minute charge, that's it. Bottom line, if you want players on your team that make the opposition think twice, you are not going to be able to always control their actions. Sometimes they'll just go off. Teams that choose to play this way live with it. It's nice to have guys doing it who can actually play. But you live with the penalties.

Last fall Gauthier (playing for Phoenix) ran a skilled Duck with a high hit, no penalty. The Duck player had to leave with a mild concussion. Later in the game Fedoruk repayed an unsuspecting Nedved with an elbow. Same result, but Fedoruk got a 5 minute major. Even though Fedoruk is a decent fighter, the message he chose to send was, "You go after our skilled guys, we'll do the same." According to what I read some places, it helped rally the Ducks and they went on to have an excellent season. Is it true? I think it depends on who you ask. Is it going to work here? Who knows. They still have to work out the rest of their problems. If they can't play defense or score, obviously not. But a retaliotory cheapshot CAN have an effect similar to a clean hit or a fight in the right context. There's a lot of grey area stuff here.

On Shanahan fighting. Definitely not something you want to see too often. He's needed on the ice. The problem is our grinders, not lack of a world-beating goon. Change Orr's name to McGratton and he still doesn't get more than 3-5 minutes of ice. Guys generally running skilled Rangers are not Brashear, in fact they'd be less likely to drop the gloves with Orr if he was a top fighter. All they have to do is turtle. If you're only looking for messages through clean hits and fighting, your 3rd/4th liners and physical defensemen have to be willing to do it. So far, with the exception of Hollweg, that's been missing. A.Ward and Kaspar did some hitting tonight. Will it continue? You need others. I'm looking at Hall and J.Ward in particular. Hall was asked repeatedly by Pettinger tonight. It was during the sequence around the net when A.Ward got his roughing minor. Pettinger is not a known fighter, his gloves were off, no danger of picking up an extra minor. Nothing. If anyone has it on DVR, watch. Hall just talked his way out of it. It's typical of our grinders. OTOH, Washington had a guy like Morrisonn instigate a fight with Orr after his hit on AO. That's the difference. That's why our leading scorer will likely end up in more fights, why Renney likely feels the need to dress Orr knowing full well he'll barely use him.


Now that you bring that up...I'd like all of you to think for a second...if Shanny-Hollweg-Orr were not on the ice and Jagr got nailed with a cheapshot just like AO did...does anyone think a darn thing would have been done?

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12-31-2006, 11:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
from fans of teams like the Oilers and Carolina. As does everyone else, I tend to watch a few other teams. Very often, it doesn't seem as though other teams hafe the problem the Rangers have. I don't hear about Edmonton needing to get tougher, or respond, or needing to throw a cheapshot here or there. It's almost as if their best players can take a shot - like Ryan Smyth, who doesn't fight, but can play physical, or their defense. It seems as though they worry less about taking care of players, whereas with the Rangers you have Jagr, Nylander, Straka, and the list goes on.

Do any out there think that we have such a need for this enforcer-type, or a guy to go out there and get retribution, because of the make-up of the Rangers, or in general, does the make-up dictate the level of policing needed?
I think that there are exceptions to having to have an enforcer. If you put someone on Buffalo over Peters...a guy who finishes checks...I think you'll be fine...simply because their a tough, quick team who finish checks. You can use Carolina as an example....but Commodore always sticks up for Ward...and Craig Adams is the Laperierre of the East this year. As for Edmonton...they don't have an enforcer...but their tough as nails. You wanna bring in a good portion of guys who finish checks, can fight, can skate, etc, then no we probably won't need an enforcer even though we can have one as an insurance. But Edmonton is filled with guys who stick up for each other and scrap and hit....Smith, Winchester, Jacques, Thoresen, Torres, Greene, etc

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12-31-2006, 11:23 AM
  #29
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I don't mind enforcers. But guys like Orr are garbage. He can do nothing else besides fight. We got to find somebody else, at least somebody who can at least get 5 pts. a season. Orr can't even get one.

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12-31-2006, 11:26 AM
  #30
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I would prefer a guy with a big pair over an actual goon who is supposed to be labeled a good fighter any day. To win the cup, it's somewhat of a set back to use a roster spot or two on a guy like Orr. As long as you collectively act tough as a team, as Dave Maloney pointed out in the pre-game, it brings the toughness factor into your games. As long as we have guys who are willing to drop the mits and stand up for one another, there's no need for a "specialized" player like Orr. What I don't like is that nobody on the team with the exception of a few like Hollweg, Shanahan, A Ward, and Kaspar have been standing up for our guys like a tough team would. It's not Jagr or Strakas business to do so (and for that matter Shanahan which is what makes him the team MVP for me), but where's J Ward, Betts, Hall etc? Are they toning their 30 goal skills for the next shift? We need to act like a pact of wolves ready to pounce on anybody who comes within two feet of our best players and when they do, we need to send a message to them as a team early in the game. I really believe this team would steal 15 points a season if we had that last year and this year with this offense and goaltending. Hell, maybe a playoff win for the first time in ten years.

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12-31-2006, 12:25 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Totally agree. Orr's job is to fight...he's the heavyweight on our squad and he's there to finish checks...be defensively responisble...protect players...and fight.
Perfect description of what Orr's job is. The problem is the only thing you listed which he can even remotely do is fight, and he's not even very good at that this year.

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12-31-2006, 12:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rangers_23 View Post
Perfect description of what Orr's job is. The problem is the only thing you listed which he can even remotely do is fight, and he's not even very good at that this year.
Really? I've seen him finish checks...get back and be defensively responsible...

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12-31-2006, 06:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Really? I've seen him finish checks...get back and be defensively responsible...
Please open your eyes, and wake-up from the dream-state/girlyman crush, you have on Orr. He is one dimentional. A fighter. That's it. He can't skate/stick-handle/ pass/ shoot/or score. Don't try to lump him in with some guys in this league who can. He's so slow and un-coordinated, he falls over on most of his checks, and the only reason he seems defensively responsible, is that he can't skate fast enough to get out of his zone with his linemates, and then when the opposition advances, he's still in his own end. You listed his job description very well in a previous post, but the problem is that he does none of it except fight, and lately, he's done quite poorly at that. Compaired to last year, (and his Boston years), he's lost a ton of weight, and it's effected his ability to hold his own with heavyweights. He gets man-handled by bigger guys, on a nightly basis. His problem is that he's trying to become a well-rounded hockey player, and all he knows is roundhouse. Compound that in with a pacifist coach who dosen't know how to use him correctly, and you have one hell of a disaster, taking up roster space. Yes you can go on about Hall or Hossa or others not deserving to be in the line-up, ect., ect., but this is about Orr, and at least they can skate. The game is ice hockey, a sport that requires one to be able to skate. Orr just can't.

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12-31-2006, 06:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
Please open your eyes, and wake-up from the dream-state/girlyman crush, you have on Orr. He is one dimentional. A fighter. That's it. He can't skate/stick-handle/ pass/ shoot/or score. Don't try to lump him in with some guys in this league who can. He's so slow and un-coordinated, he falls over on most of his checks, and the only reason he seems defensively responsible, is that he can't skate fast enough to get out of his zone with his linemates, and then when the opposition advances, he's still in his own end. You listed his job description very well in a previous post, but the problem is that he does none of it except fight, and lately, he's done quite poorly at that. Compaired to last year, (and his Boston years), he's lost a ton of weight, and it's effected his ability to hold his own with heavyweights. He gets man-handled by bigger guys, on a nightly basis. His problem is that he's trying to become a well-rounded hockey player, and all he knows is roundhouse. Compound that in with a pacifist coach who dosen't know how to use him correctly, and you have one hell of a disaster, taking up roster space. Yes you can go on about Hall or Hossa or others not deserving to be in the line-up, ect., ect., but this is about Orr, and at least they can skate. The game is ice hockey, a sport that requires one to be able to skate. Orr just can't.
Dude. He's a plus 1 on the year...he gets back in the play and is defensively responsible. He dumps the puck in, makes the simple pass, etc. Yeesh. No he's not good at it but he handles himself fine out there...of course it requires you to skate....and if he couldn't he would never have gotten into the NHL.

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12-31-2006, 07:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Dude. He's a plus 1 on the year...he gets back in the play and is defensively responsible. He dumps the puck in, makes the simple pass, etc. Yeesh. No he's not good at it but he handles himself fine out there...of course it requires you to skate....and if he couldn't he would never have gotten into the NHL.
Come on, you of all people are actually going to use the +/- stat, to justify Orr's effectiveness. The fact that he was slowly trying to skate to the bench, (to finish his second and last, 30 second shift of the night), and didn't make it over the boards, when someone scored, to get his plus, is pathetic. (Also isn't there a criteria for certain amounts of minutes played/per game per season, that needs to be factored in here). Look, we all wish he was better, he's a Ranger, and were fans, I'd love to root him on, but not at the expense of Prucha, Immonen, and others. I wish he could play more than 2 minutes per game, and not be the anchor that slows down the 4th line and makes it impossible to effectively roll it all night long, but he is. He didn't get into the NHL because he can skate, it's because he can/could fight, period. He's certainly not in the line-up for his plus/minus, that's a joke.

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12-31-2006, 07:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
Come on, you of all people are actually going to use the +/- stat, to justify Orr's effectiveness. The fact that he was slowly trying to skate to the bench, (to finish his second and last, 30 second shift of the night), and didn't make it over the boards, when someone scored, to get his plus, is pathetic. (Also isn't there a criteria for certain amounts of minutes played/per game per season, that needs to be factored in here). Look, we all wish he was better, he's a Ranger, and were fans, I'd love to root him on, but not at the expense of Prucha, Immonen, and others. I wish he could play more than 2 minutes per game, and not be the anchor that slows down the 4th line and makes it impossible to effectively roll it all night long, but he is. He didn't get into the NHL because he can skate, it's because he can/could fight, period. He's certainly not in the line-up for his plus/minus, that's a joke.
He actually just came out of the box and got right into the shift with Jags and Straka. Again I stand by and say that he can defend and he can hit.

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12-31-2006, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
He actually just came out of the box and got right into the shift with Jags and Straka. Again I stand by and say that he can defend and he can hit.
I'm not disputing that, but again, how effective? Wouldn't you like to see better? He hasn't improved that much to warrant being in the line-up.

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12-31-2006, 07:34 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
I'm not disputing that, but again, how effective? Wouldn't you like to see better? He hasn't improved that much to warrant being in the line-up.
Yes I would...a better enforcer...absolutley...however we didn't sign Laraque, Parros, Brashear, Low, Simon, Brookbank, Cowan, etc. At this point I think Orr may be one of our better options

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12-31-2006, 08:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by True Blue Bleed Blue View Post
Yes I would...a better enforcer...absolutley...however we didn't sign Laraque, Parros, Brashear, Low, Simon, Brookbank, Cowan, etc. At this point I think Orr may be one of our better options
No, the sad truth is he's our only option at this time, unless a trade is made,(unlikely).

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