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Real Cloutier HHOF?

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Old
01-01-2007, 09:34 AM
  #1
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Real Cloutier HHOF?

Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.

WHA:

Regular season: 369 games, 566 points
Playoffs: 48 games, 63 points

Bill Hunter Trophy Winner (Leading scorer of the regular season) 1977 and 1979.

Avco World Trophy (WHA champion) 1977

NHL:

Regular season 317 games, 344 points
Playoffs: 25 games, 12 points

Real Cloutier's stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...3?pid=00001037

WHA is very underrated league.

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01-01-2007, 09:46 AM
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12# Peter Bondra
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Cause the HHOF wont let in a player with 317 NHL games (unless he was like 2 points per game). WHA games are meaningless for the HHOF.

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Old
01-01-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 12# Peter Bondra View Post
Cause the HHOF wont let in a player with 317 NHL games (unless he was like 2 points per game). WHA games are meaningless for the HHOF.
Tretiak and Kharlamov never played in the NHL. But I agree with you, HHOF is basically NHL hall of fame.

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01-01-2007, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 12# Peter Bondra View Post
Cause the HHOF wont let in a player with 317 NHL games (unless he was like 2 points per game). WHA games are meaningless for the HHOF.
Their seems to be an actual penalty for playing in the WHA. Mark Howe was a star in the WHA for 6 years. And he was an elite defenceman in the NHL for another 10 or so but he isn't in the Hall of fame. And he is far more deserving than Real Cloutier.

How about Kent Nillson? If you include his international play, the WHA and the NHL he has a pretty fine resume as well.

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01-01-2007, 10:55 AM
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How about Kent Nillson? If you include his international play, the WHA and the NHL he has a pretty fine resume as well.

Yes. Kent Nilsson easily belongs to HHOF.

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01-01-2007, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by statistics View Post
Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.

WHA:

Regular season: 369 games, 566 points
Playoffs: 48 games, 63 points

Bill Hunter Trophy Winner (Leading scorer of the regular season) 1977 and 1979.

Avco World Trophy (WHA champion) 1977

NHL:

Regular season 317 games, 344 points
Playoffs: 25 games, 12 points

Real Cloutier's stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...3?pid=00001037

WHA is very underrated league.

They took away Gretzky's Calder trophy because of his participation in the WHA. They would never elect a HOFer based on WHA play. Andre Lacroix, Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson are still waiting for the call and they were as big or bigger stars than Cloutier.

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01-01-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Andre Lacroix, Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson are still waiting for the call and they were as big or bigger stars than Cloutier.
Do you think Real Cloutier belongs to HHOF or not? Is Real Cloutier better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely? Or do you think that Duff and Neely doesn't belong to HHOF?

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01-01-2007, 11:16 AM
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Do you think Real Cloutier belongs to HHOF or not? Is Real Cloutier better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely?

Cam Neely, Dick Duff, Bernie Federko, Clark Gillies and Real Cloutier all DO NOT belong in the hall.

But, the hall has set a very low bar so I would not be shocked to see Trevor Linden in.

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01-01-2007, 12:00 PM
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But, the hall has set a very low bar so I would not be shocked to see Trevor Linden in.
So the HHOF is generally consider a joke in Canada?

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01-01-2007, 12:07 PM
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So the HHOF is generally consider a joke in Canada?
No, but many debate the merits of some recent candidates and complain that others have been left out. (Vachon, Glenn Anderson, Dino Ciccarelli and so on)

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01-01-2007, 12:11 PM
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So the HHOF is generally consider a joke in Canada?

Personally, I consider it a joke. I don't give the HOF any serious credibility because the bar is so low. I have my idea of what the Hall should be and that does not mesh with what the HHOF believes. I put more stock in my list.

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01-01-2007, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by statistics View Post
Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.

WHA:

Regular season: 369 games, 566 points
Playoffs: 48 games, 63 points

Bill Hunter Trophy Winner (Leading scorer of the regular season) 1977 and 1979.

Avco World Trophy (WHA champion) 1977

NHL:

Regular season 317 games, 344 points
Playoffs: 25 games, 12 points

Real Cloutier's stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...3?pid=00001037

WHA is very underrated league.
Real Cloutier's NHL career was over at the age of 28. Did he really accomplish enough in that time to warrant Hall of Fame consideration?

He won two WHA scoring titles. While the WHA was underrated and didn't get the respect it deserved, it certainly wasn`t at the level of the NHL either. Cloutier`s NHL career went from age 23 to age 28, when most players are in their prime; yet his point totals were only 70% of what they were in the WHA, which is probably a fair indicator of how much tougher it was to accumulate points in the NHL. So had he played in the NHL in the late-70s instead of the WHA, those 120-140 point seasons would've likely been 80-100 point seasons. That`s still impressive, but there were lots of players at that level at that time who aren`t in the Hall: MacLeish, Larouche, Middleton, Taylor, etc. I don't see anything that sets Cloutier ahead of that group.

I always liked Cloutier as a player. His skill always impressed me when he was with Buffalo, but apparently Scotty Bowman didn`t feel the same way.

Interesting little note about Cloutier. When Quebec joined the NHL in 1979, Chicago held his rights. Quebec reacquired Cloutier by giving Chicago their 1st round pick in the 1980 draft. Chicago used that pick to draft Denis Savard. Makes you wonder what would`ve happened if Quebec hadn`t made that trade and drafted Savard themselves. He may have developed into more of a complete player, and having one of the games biggest French stars on the Nordiques would've intensified the Montreal/Quebec rivalry in the 80s. That also would've given Quebec arguably the most depth in the league at centre with Stastny, Savard and Hunter.

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Old
01-02-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Interesting little note about Cloutier. When Quebec joined the NHL in 1979, Chicago held his rights. Quebec reacquired Cloutier by giving Chicago their 1st round pick in the 1980 draft. Chicago used that pick to draft Denis Savard. Makes you wonder what would`ve happened if Quebec hadn`t made that trade and drafted Savard themselves. He may have developed into more of a complete player, and having one of the games biggest French stars on the Nordiques would've intensified the Montreal/Quebec rivalry in the 80s. That also would've given Quebec arguably the most depth in the league at centre with Stastny, Savard and Hunter.
If Quebec had held that pick it is unlikely that Montreal would have selected Wickenheiser Number 1 over-all and given the Nords a shot at a potential French Canadian star player.

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01-02-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Real Cloutier's NHL career was over at the age of 28. Did he really accomplish enough in that time to warrant Hall of Fame consideration?

How come his career came to a halt so sudden? I was a kid back then but wondered what happened there?

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01-02-2007, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Interesting little note about Cloutier. When Quebec joined the NHL in 1979, Chicago held his rights. Quebec reacquired Cloutier by giving Chicago their 1st round pick in the 1980 draft. Chicago used that pick to draft Denis Savard. Makes you wonder what would`ve happened if Quebec hadn`t made that trade and drafted Savard themselves. He may have developed into more of a complete player, and having one of the games biggest French stars on the Nordiques would've intensified the Montreal/Quebec rivalry in the 80s. That also would've given Quebec arguably the most depth in the league at centre with Stastny, Savard and Hunter.
Funny how things work out. It would have been in the Habs best interest if Quebec had kept their pick. As Montreal would surely have taken Savard first overall.

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01-02-2007, 04:45 PM
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63 points in 48 WHA playoff games (1.31 ppg)

12 points in 25 NHL playoff games (0.48 ppg)

hmmmm.....

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01-03-2007, 10:32 AM
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63 points in 48 WHA playoff games (1.31 ppg)

12 points in 25 NHL playoff games (0.48 ppg)

hmmmm.....
Look at the difference in caliber of players though

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01-03-2007, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by statistics View Post
Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.

WHA:

Regular season: 369 games, 566 points
Playoffs: 48 games, 63 points

Bill Hunter Trophy Winner (Leading scorer of the regular season) 1977 and 1979.

Avco World Trophy (WHA champion) 1977

NHL:

Regular season 317 games, 344 points
Playoffs: 25 games, 12 points

Real Cloutier's stats: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...3?pid=00001037

WHA is very underrated league.
Better than Duff or Neely? What are you basing it on? Have you actually done research into how they played the game, what they meant to their teams, their time, or are you basing it strictly on stats?

I was P.O.'ed when Duff was announced for the HHOF. And I'm still not thrilled about it. But if I had to come up with a modern comparison, I'd say he was the Joe Nieuwendyk of his time. He was a good/really good regular season producer. But when the playoffs arrived, he was one of the guys everybody wanted on their team. A money player who played a critical role on six Cup champions. And in the end, as anyone who knows anything about sports will tell you, you build your legacy, your place in the game, on the playoffs. The greats find a way to take their game to another level in the playoffs.

As for Neely, there's only one player in the last 30 years who combined goals and physical play like Neely, and that's Mark Messier. That's why Neely's in the HHOF. He's still the template for the power forward. Scouts have been seeking the next Cam Neely for 15 years, and they'll be seeking the next Cam Neely for many more years. A four-time all-star. Only one forward has four all-star births and isn't in the HHOF: Rick Martin. Even though he never won a Cup, Neely was clutch in the playoffs. Dominant for Boston in 1988 and 1990 when they reached the Cup final, and was the class of the playoffs in 1991 until suffering the leg injury at the hands of Ulf Samuelsson. All this for a guy who never really had a prime. Neely definitely belongs in the HHOF.

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01-03-2007, 10:17 PM
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Buddy was a fine player, but its odd his career ended so young. was he injured?

WHA was a step below NHL but not too far, as evidenced by how bad some NHL teams were in the 70's, the interleague exhibitions, and games against the Soviets. After '79, some players could not transfer dominance from one league to another (Cloutier, Hedberg), others were about the same (Mark Howe), while others (Mike Rogers, Kent Nilsson, Stoughton, come to mind), improved their output. Some of that has to do with differing roles and expectations from team to team, as well as supporting casts.

It would have been fun to see the 1977 Nordiques play in the NHL. Tardiff, Bernier, Cloutier, JC Tremblay, the Bordeleaus, Brodeur...them and the '78 Jets would have been very competitive. And the "Baby Bulls", maturing in the early 80s, would have been a strong team (Vaive, Hartsburg, Napier, Goulet, Ramage would have been their core).

The WHA cores were solid but I think better NHL teams had a lot more depth, especially on the 3rd and 4th lines and on D. this would explain some of the inflated stats. It was very entertaining hockey, which is the important thing. Is there a HHOF bias against the WHA? most likely.

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01-03-2007, 10:21 PM
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Why not? He was better than Dick Duff or Cam Neely.
not really an either/or situation. player selection "competes" against their class of fellow retirees, a class which only expands as time goes on, with occasional rightings of the historical record here and there.

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01-04-2007, 03:51 AM
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The thing about it is, don't compair a player to the worst player in the hall, compair them to the best player not in the hall.

How does Cloutier compair to Pavel Bure? Doug Gilmour? Glenn Anderson? To name a few. How about Boris Mikhailov? Sergei Maltsev? Vaclav Nedomansky? Vladimir Martinec?

Cloutier is clearly out classed.

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01-04-2007, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Buddy was a fine player, but its odd his career ended so young. was he injured?

WHA was a step below NHL but not too far, as evidenced by how bad some NHL teams were in the 70's, the interleague exhibitions, and games against the Soviets. After '79, some players could not transfer dominance from one league to another (Cloutier, Hedberg), others were about the same (Mark Howe), while others (Mike Rogers, Kent Nilsson, Stoughton, come to mind), improved their output. Some of that has to do with differing roles and expectations from team to team, as well as supporting casts.

It would have been fun to see the 1977 Nordiques play in the NHL. Tardiff, Bernier, Cloutier, JC Tremblay, the Bordeleaus, Brodeur...them and the '78 Jets would have been very competitive. And the "Baby Bulls", maturing in the early 80s, would have been a strong team (Vaive, Hartsburg, Napier, Goulet, Ramage would have been their core).

The WHA cores were solid but I think better NHL teams had a lot more depth, especially on the 3rd and 4th lines and on D. this would explain some of the inflated stats. It was very entertaining hockey, which is the important thing. Is there a HHOF bias against the WHA? most likely.
Interesting post. I agree that WHA wasn't that much below NHL calibre for the reasons you have stated.

As for the HHOF, there is a definite bias toward guys who played in the WHA, which is why Mark Howe & J.C. Trembly have not been elected.

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01-05-2007, 09:46 AM
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I believe that if you polled 1000 hockey people and asked whether they'd select Cloutier or Neely for their teams, 1000 would select Neely, even Milbury, who would then trade him .

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01-05-2007, 10:34 AM
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The Cloutier-Bowman tension led to Buffalo assigning him to Flint in the I as punishment IIRC. It apparently worked, since it drove him out of the game.

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01-05-2007, 10:48 AM
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How come his career came to a halt so sudden? I was a kid back then but wondered what happened there?
His career wasa ruined when Scotty Bowman traded for him in one of the worst deals in Sabres history. Bowman hated him, but brought him in anyway.

It was a bad fit from the start. He was never the same after that. I blame Bowman for it.

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