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Price for centres too high?

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12-31-2006, 04:12 PM
  #1
Moester
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Price for centres too high?

Here is what I'm wondering, with Peca out & several teams looking for a boost at centre, we might be better off trading one away than acquiring one. For example, we might be able to move plekanec or Bonk, and get premium returns for them. This would open up a spot for lapierre, and would let us upgrade our D in a major way. We have depth in a seller's market. It might be a good idea to use it...then again having depth going into the playoffs might be a very good idea.

Here's an article that kinda backs up what I'm saying http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/darren_dreger/ If we're competing with 9 other teams (I'm assuming that MTL is one of the 10) The price may be really high to get a talented centre this year. So we might be better off to liquidate and be the Sellers in the Seller's market and try to updgrade in the off season.


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12-31-2006, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moester View Post
Here is what I'm wondering, with Peca out & several teams looking for a boost at centre, we might be better off trading one away than acquiring one. For example, we might be able to move plekanec or Bonk, and get premium returns for them. This would open up a spot for lapierre, and would let us upgrade our D in a major way. We have depth in a seller's market. It might be a good idea to use it...then again having depth going into the playoffs might be a very good idea.

Here's an article that kinda backs up what I'm saying http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/darren_dreger/ If we're competing with 9 other teams (I'm assuming that MTL is one of the 10) The price may be really high to get a talented centre this year. So we might be better off to liquidate and be the Sellers in the Seller's market and try to updgrade in the off season.
And since the Habs are superdeep at that position, they wouldn't even feel the loss.

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12-31-2006, 05:00 PM
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Nah... You have to go for it someday and with Souray possibly leaving after this year, Gainey have to address the second line situation.

We are always talking about the right timing and the timing is about right, IMO

We have a lot of depth, the prospect are all going well, the team is doing very well. We have all our draft picks. You want your new player to play a handful of games with his new teammate before playoffs

My bet is that Gainey pull the trigger on a blockbuster deal that will adress the center situation as a 1a) 1b) tandem sooner than later.

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12-31-2006, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moester View Post
Here is what I'm wondering, with Peca out & several teams looking for a boost at centre, we might be better off trading one away than acquiring one. For example, we might be able to move plekanec or Bonk, and get premium returns for them. This would open up a spot for lapierre, and would let us upgrade our D in a major way. We have depth in a seller's market. It might be a good idea to use it...then again having depth going into the playoffs might be a very good idea.

Here's an article that kinda backs up what I'm saying http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/darren_dreger/ If we're competing with 9 other teams (I'm assuming that MTL is one of the 10) The price may be really high to get a talented centre this year. So we might be better off to liquidate and be the Sellers in the Seller's market and try to updgrade in the off season.

I guess it all boils down to the deal?

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12-31-2006, 05:12 PM
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upgrade D?
how much upgrade do you want?
so you trade our weak position (center) to upgrade a position that we are pretty deep in (8 NHL defenseman + 1 capable in the minor).

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12-31-2006, 05:26 PM
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I think there may be 8 or even 10 teams that would love to have another center, either for their 2nd or 3rd lines.

A quality UFA center at the deadline is going to cost.

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12-31-2006, 05:36 PM
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I thought you wanted to trade Price for overrated centers, I was like : W-T-F!

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12-31-2006, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Seb_Rafter View Post
I thought you wanted to trade Price for overrated centers, I was like : W-T-F!
I thought the exact samething and I was about to post a comment like : "Go away "

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12-31-2006, 10:09 PM
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The price may be higher with the deadline moved up

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01-01-2007, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8 View Post
upgrade D?
how much upgrade do you want?
so you trade our weak position (center) to upgrade a position that we are pretty deep in (8 NHL defenseman + 1 capable in the minor).
We're only weak as far as 1st or 2nd line players. We're actually deep as far as gritty two way players. I was thinking more of upgrading Niinimaa, Samsonov or even Ryder. Whatever trade we would make would be for all intents and purposed a HUGE move, but we could get more than we're giving away with it.

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01-01-2007, 07:00 PM
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Ok, we lack at C, but we would trade Plekanec or Bonk for one...

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01-01-2007, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Ok, we lack at C, but we would trade Plekanec or Bonk for one...
I think what the origanal poster was implying was actually a very good point. The Habs need a 2nd line center. Someone who can score, play well with Kovy and Sammy and play decent defense while doing it. Obviously this is going to be very hard to get at the deadline, and right now I am not confident enough in this team to morgage the future for a playoff run. If the right deal comes along, by all means, pull the trigger, but don't do a deal that'll haunt you in the upcoming years.

What the Habs have alot of are 3rd and 4th line centers. Begin, Bonk, Lappy, Murray, Johnson (in a pinch), Chipper and Pleks are all centers that are 3rd or 4th line material. If a team is willing to pay alot for one of these guys, then let them go because we have the depth to replace them . None of these guys can play on the 2nd line so its not losing one of them will make the team that much worse. While Bonk and Johnson are obviously not going to get traded (because loosing them would be disasterous to the team), Pleks, Begin and Murray are all expendable in my opinion. Someone like Pleks or Begin could get a decent return. I havent mentioned Grabs because he has the potential to be a 2nd line center, but IMO isn't ready for the NHL yet.

Before people flame the orginal poster, stop, think about the Canadiens situation and realize that trading on of their 7 potential 3rd or 4th line centers won't hurt the team (and might actually be able to improve it). So in conclusion, I think the Habs should be in BOTH the buyer and seller market for centers because the mixture of centers they have right now is deep on the lower end, but missing a critical position (2nd line center).

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01-01-2007, 08:14 PM
  #13
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
I think what the origanal poster was implying was actually a very good point. The Habs need a 2nd line center. Someone who can score, play well with Kovy and Sammy and play decent defense while doing it. Obviously this is going to be very hard to get at the deadline, and right now I am not confident enough in this team to morgage the future for a playoff run. If the right deal comes along, by all means, pull the trigger, but don't do a deal that'll haunt you in the upcoming years.

What the Habs have alot of are 3rd and 4th line centers. Begin, Bonk, Lappy, Murray, Johnson (in a pinch), Chipper and Pleks are all centers that are 3rd or 4th line material. If a team is willing to pay alot for one of these guys, then let them go because we have the depth to replace them . None of these guys can play on the 2nd line so its not losing one of them will make the team that much worse. While Bonk and Johnson are obviously not going to get traded (because loosing them would be disasterous to the team), Pleks, Begin and Murray are all expendable in my opinion. Someone like Pleks or Begin could get a decent return. I havent mentioned Grabs because he has the potential to be a 2nd line center, but IMO isn't ready for the NHL yet.

Before people flame the orginal poster, stop, think about the Canadiens situation and realize that trading on of their 7 potential 3rd or 4th line centers won't hurt the team (and might actually be able to improve it). So in conclusion, I think the Habs should be in BOTH the buyer and seller market for centers because the mixture of centers they have right now is deep on the lower end, but missing a critical position (2nd line center).
Tell me you're not serious, we already tried half the team... we even tried to put Kovalev at C...

as far as letting C goes, Murray CANT play more that 4th line, Lapierre is a rookie that has yet to proove he can be that good for a long period of time, Johnson is a natural RW, Bonk doesnt have much value and Plekanec IS Bonks replacement...

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01-01-2007, 09:00 PM
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Why is it that Buffalo got Briere Drury and Hecht for peanuts??? We need another fleecing

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01-01-2007, 09:42 PM
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Why is it that Buffalo got Briere Drury and Hecht for peanuts??? We need another fleecing
5M$, peanuts ?

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01-01-2007, 09:49 PM
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He was peanuts last year.

We need some bananas.

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01-01-2007, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Tell me you're not serious, we already tried half the team... we even tried to put Kovalev at C...

as far as letting C goes, Murray CANT play more that 4th line, Lapierre is a rookie that has yet to proove he can be that good for a long period of time, Johnson is a natural RW, Bonk doesnt have much value and Plekanec IS Bonks replacement...
If you read my post, you'll realize that I think that we NEED to aquire a 2nd line center. There are 2 methods of doing this: from within, or trade/ufa. I already said that we don't have a 2nd line center, and therefore, I was saying that we should try and trade for one (because we dont have one in the system). But, on the other hand, if we are going to send away alot of pick/prospects for a rental, so we should be careful about what we pay for a 2nd line center.

As far as trading centers, I don't think it would be a bad idea to swap Pleks for another player of his caliber that could be more useful. I am not saying letting him go for nothing, but if I good deal comes along (especially since centers are somewhat in demand right now), then take it. It's obvious that you underrate Bonks importance to this team. He centers a line that is constantly matched up against the Crosby's, Ovechkin's, Sundins, Briere's and other elites of the league and still manages to be a line of over +30. That is damn impressive. Bonk is perhaps the only center (asides from Koivu) in which I wouldn't trade right now. Pleks isn't big or strong enough to be as effective as Bonk is. You don't have faith in Lapierre (which is fair because he is a rookie), but I do. This guy is NHL ready. I wouldn't expect him to score a point a game or anything, but he could easily be the 4th line center if he is needed to be. I wouldn't want Bob to trade Lappy (and I doubt he will). Murray is expendable (pretty obvious that this guy is the easiest upgrade the Habs can have). The Habs are deep with 3rd/4th line centers, trading one of them isn't going to make our 2nd line center situation any worse since none of these players can fix it.

PS: You may think I am hard on Pleks, but I actually like the guy. I just feel that realistically he has to really step it up, because there are alot of players fighting for the same position (or role) that he is in right now. Players like him and Ryder are very good trade bait right now.

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01-02-2007, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CoupeStanley View Post
Nah... You have to go for it someday and with Souray possibly leaving after this year, Gainey have to address the second line situation.

We are always talking about the right timing and the timing is about right, IMO

We have a lot of depth, the prospect are all going well, the team is doing very well. We have all our draft picks. You want your new player to play a handful of games with his new teammate before playoffs

My bet is that Gainey pull the trigger on a blockbuster deal that will adress the center situation as a 1a) 1b) tandem sooner than later.


I totally agree with you and yes the sooner rather than close to the deadline to get the guys gelling with each other with as much regular season games as possible.

I am eluding to that fact in the "trade winds" thread I made up today

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01-02-2007, 01:43 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
If you read my post, you'll realize that I think that we NEED to aquire a 2nd line center. There are 2 methods of doing this: from within, or trade/ufa. I already said that we don't have a 2nd line center, and therefore, I was saying that we should try and trade for one (because we dont have one in the system). But, on the other hand, if we are going to send away alot of pick/prospects for a rental, so we should be careful about what we pay for a 2nd line center.

As far as trading centers, I don't think it would be a bad idea to swap Pleks for another player of his caliber that could be more useful. I am not saying letting him go for nothing, but if I good deal comes along (especially since centers are somewhat in demand right now), then take it. It's obvious that you underrate Bonks importance to this team. He centers a line that is constantly matched up against the Crosby's, Ovechkin's, Sundins, Briere's and other elites of the league and still manages to be a line of over +30. That is damn impressive. Bonk is perhaps the only center (asides from Koivu) in which I wouldn't trade right now. Pleks isn't big or strong enough to be as effective as Bonk is. You don't have faith in Lapierre (which is fair because he is a rookie), but I do. This guy is NHL ready. I wouldn't expect him to score a point a game or anything, but he could easily be the 4th line center if he is needed to be. I wouldn't want Bob to trade Lappy (and I doubt he will). Murray is expendable (pretty obvious that this guy is the easiest upgrade the Habs can have). The Habs are deep with 3rd/4th line centers, trading one of them isn't going to make our 2nd line center situation any worse since none of these players can fix it.

PS: You may think I am hard on Pleks, but I actually like the guy. I just feel that realistically he has to really step it up, because there are alot of players fighting for the same position (or role) that he is in right now. Players like him and Ryder are very good trade bait right now.
If you read mine, "are you serious" was about having someone who can play between the two russian rockets

You can't be serious about the Plekanec/Bonk comparison, the kid was doing Bonk's job last year (for some reason, everyone seems to forget it), and he was damn good at it. True, he's not as strong but he's way faster and his transisition game is better. He play a different style of game than Bonk but he's as effective if not more, and for about 1.8M$ less...

Murray can't do the job on a 3rd line - he doesnt even do it on a 4th, Bégin is not as efficient as a C, Lapierre showed he could do well on a 4th line already but that doesnt mean he would do good on a 3rd, Johnson is one of our very few natural RW...

We don't have as many 3rd line C as you seems to think, aside from Plekanec and Bonk there's no one really... if you trade Plekanec, not only you lose depth but also lose a cheap ($) replacement for Bonk next year...

and in a cap world it's not like you're going to get much return for a 600K$ a year player anyway...

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01-02-2007, 04:41 AM
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It would be better to just transform one of our guys into a centerman and trade our other guys for a top D a la Mathiew Schneider who has a few years left on his contract in Detroit. Detroit is fearfull of Datsyuk leaving next summer so we trade them Kovalev. It might be good to either 1. make sure they have a talented guy as reserve if anything happens, 2. if Kovalev is there, Datsuyk may want to stay. Meanwhile the Habs have a top powerplay guy in Mathiew, it protects them if one of our guys would be tempted to leave in the summer.

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01-02-2007, 05:30 AM
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With 30 teams around the league, there just arent enough bonafide top 6 centermen for everyone. Regardless the price.

Personally I would be surpriced to see Habs (currently 4th in the East) selling Plekanec or Bonk just because they *might* get something else for already useful pieces of the team. Not worth the risk. For the same reason I doubt Detroit is shopping Schneider either.

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01-02-2007, 06:34 AM
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Availability, more so than price, is the issue. Like top quality defencemen, good centres are hard to find. Anyone that has one isn't going to just up and part with him. If you look around the league there aren't a lot of logical fits. Salary, age, fit with current team, and cap constraints are all factors in making it hard to find someone right.

I don't think we'll see much of anything done during the season. I think it will be more likely that something happens in the off season. Current UFAs will be off the books, and the team will have more flexibility.

We'd all like to see the team find the perfect solution for the second line, but holding ones breath until the solution is found would be a bad idea.

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01-02-2007, 07:39 AM
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At this point unless right at the deadline someone is willing to let someone go it looks more like we are going with what we have. Bob will find a way, must have faith!!

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01-02-2007, 07:49 AM
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toshiro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
5M$, peanuts ?
In the trades they were obtained for peanuts. The habs missed on the drury acquisition.

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01-02-2007, 09:13 AM
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If you look at the C's avaialable on non contending teams, if you're GM of one of these teams, the only way you move now is if you really love the offer.

Nedved has been available all year and finally Ottawa is desperate enough to make a move. They've whined about 2nd line C forever, longer than we have, so what happens, they lose #'s 1 and 2. they really had no choice. Mtl isn't in add a player roster position right now.

Teams with tradeable assets want futures or young productive players. Gainey would probably want to move Samsonov to make space for anyone he acquired, but who'd want the guy knowing they were on the hook for next year ?

Right now, Ryder seems to be the only realistic player to move in that he makes enough, but is reasonably productive. Keep in mind that as much as you all hate to see Ryder skate himself into a corner, he has more points than Plekanec and Perezhogin combined.

There are so many ifs with any deal. I believe we'd be shocked at how many current NHL players would pass thru waivers right now. Why would a team claim Niniimaa right now ? Maybe at the last second, but now ? Who claims Samsonov ? Maybe Washington, but they don't have what we need.

Personally, I haven't seen anything or thought of anything that works. I still believe that rather than think about getting a C, the org. should think about what C plays with what winger. I'm not sure who would realistically fit between Samsonov and Kovalev and turn them into a top flite line. I love trades as much as the next guy, but let's make sure we're adressing the right problem.

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