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Old
01-08-2007, 06:20 PM
  #1
abracanada
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Complaints About Flames Being Ranked #4

I guess TSN has had a lot of complaints about how the Flames were ranked ahead of the Nucks and Oil. The guy can back it up though. ( Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=191404&hubname




On to the mail...

I find it hard to understand why the Calgary Flames can be ranked 4th while the Canucks are ranked 18th. Before heading into the games on January 2nd, the flames were 5-4-1 in their last 10 games and the Canucks were 6-4-0. Also the Canucks had won three straight including two versus the Flames and added another victory over the Flames tonight (Jan 2). It makes me wonder if you guys in Ontario even know what's happening out west or if there are other ranking factors that I am not aware of. Ian Frew, Vancouver

As much as I enjoyed the unnecessary anti-Ontario dig, the closeness of the Northwest division is causing major concerns in Western Canada and my inbox reflects as much. In order to answer the bulk of those complaints, I'm going to provide my breakdown for each of Canada's teams in the Northwest (please accept my apologies, Colorado and Minnesota fans).

FLAMES VS. OILERS VS. CANUCKS





Flames Centres:
Daymond Langkow
Matthew Lombardi
Stephane Yelle
Byron Ritchie

85 points, plus-34 (Yelle also missed 22 games)

Oilers Centres:
Jarret Stoll
Petr Sykora
Shawn Horcoff
Marty Reasoner

107 points, minus-15

Canucks Centres:
Henrik Sedin
Brendan Morrison
Ryan Kesler
Marc Chouinard

80 points, minus-12

Advantage: Flames

Flames Left Wingers:
Kristian Huselius
Alex Tanguay
Jeff Friesen
Jamie Lundmark

75 points, plus-16

Oilers Left Wingers:
Ryan Smyth
Raffi Torres
Petr Nedved *
Toby Petersen

* You can flip Nedved and Sykora (but Sykora has been centre for most of the season, that's why I included him in that group).

69 points, minus-16 (Smyth missed ten games)

Canucks Left Wingers:
Daniel Sedin
Matt Cooke
Jan Bulis
Josh Green

67 points, minus-12

Advantage: Flames

Flames Right Wingers:
(No Jarome Iginla)
Tony Amonte
Chuck Kobasew
David Moss
Darren McCarty

37 points, plus-8 (Moss and Dustin Boyd are wildcards, having played a combined 14 games, particularly in the absence of Iginla)

Oilers Right Wingers:
Ales Hemsky
Joffrey Lupul
Fernando Pisani
Brad Winchester

70 points, minus-7 (Hemsky missed eight games)

Canucks Right Wingers:
Markus Naslund
Trevor Linden
Taylor Pyatt
Alexandre Burrows

62 points, minus-12

Advantage: Oilers

Flames Defence:
Dion Phaneuf
Robyn Regehr
Roman Hamrlik
Rhett Warrener
Andrew Ference
Mark Giordano

70 points, plus-64

Oilers Defence:
Steve Staios
Jason Smith
Daniel Tjarnqvist
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Matt Greene
Jan Hejda
(Ladislav Smid hurt)

60 points, minus-9

Canucks Defence:
Mattias Ohlund
Sami Salo
Kevin Bieksa
Willie Mitchell
Lukas Krajicek
Rory Fitzpatrick

75 points, minus-11 (Salo missed ten games)

Advantage: Flames

Flames Goaltending
2.60 GAA -- 8th in the league
.914 SVPCT - 5th in the league

Oilers Goaltending
2.93 GAA - 16th in the league
.898 SVPCT - 19th in the league

Canucks Goaltending
2.56 GAA - 6th in the league
.909 SVPCT - 9th in the league

Advantage: Very close between Vancouver and Calgary

So, by all means, disagree with my evaluations and rankings if you must, but there are numbers that actually support ranking the Flames ahead of their Western Canadian counterparts. Perhaps the loss of Iginla will even things out. - SC

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Old
01-08-2007, 07:22 PM
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chaosrevolver
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I just dont get why people care about rankings that are not the NHL standings. The only thing that matters is where your team is in the standings, not where your team is in a person's individual rankings.

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Old
01-08-2007, 07:46 PM
  #3
StreakingRed
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Some Canucks fans as of late seem to think that a 7 game winning streak is reason to plan a Cup parade or something. I give the Canucks credit for having played really well in their last 7 games (they've played better than the Flames as of late, can't deny that, even if they didn't deserve EVERY WIN in that 7 game win stretch), but a 7 game winning streak doesn't take away from the mediocre season they've had leading up to this run.


Last edited by StreakingRed: 01-08-2007 at 07:51 PM.
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Old
01-08-2007, 09:36 PM
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its just typical vancouver/edmonton ignorance. vancouver has an arguement LATLEY, and only latley, but despite being ahead in the standings, vancouver has played more games, and quite easily calgary could be ahead of them. edmonton has no arguement at all. they have played poorly and in my opinion are the worst canadian team of the 6 right now. justly. they are the only team out the playoffs right now. nough said.

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01-08-2007, 09:51 PM
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abracanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
Some Canucks fans as of late seem to think that a 7 game winning streak is reason to plan a Cup parade or something. I give the Canucks credit for having played really well in their last 7 games (they've played better than the Flames as of late, can't deny that, even if they didn't deserve EVERY WIN in that 7 game win stretch), but a 7 game winning streak doesn't take away from the mediocre season they've had leading up to this run.
They have been playing well of late, but you can't deny how the Flames have surged up the standings, and have increased their standing in a number of areas. It is nothing short of amazing.

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01-08-2007, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by natural420 View Post
its just typical vancouver/edmonton ignorance. vancouver has an arguement LATLEY, and only latley, but despite being ahead in the standings, vancouver has played more games, and quite easily calgary could be ahead of them. edmonton has no arguement at all. they have played poorly and in my opinion are the worst canadian team of the 6 right now. justly. they are the only team out the playoffs right now. nough said.
Edmonton obiously has been playing like **** the past month, but how is Calgary any different then Vancouver?

Calgary has only led the division for 5 games this year.......yet edmonton the team that has no arugment has led it for 35, how does that work?

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01-08-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by natural420 View Post
its just typical vancouver/edmonton ignorance...
Awesome. I absolutely love it when people label entire cities as ignorant based on a few emails to TSN.

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01-09-2007, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HuMz View Post
Edmonton obiously has been playing like **** the past month, but how is Calgary any different then Vancouver?
i didnt emphasize on that for a reason, because as of right now, there isnt much of a difference, i'll give it to vancouver that they are playing at least as good, if not better then calgary over the entire season. but for people to get all worked up over one article on tsn is pretty pathetic.

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01-09-2007, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by dubya View Post
Awesome. I absolutely love it when people label entire cities as ignorant based on a few emails to TSN.

your right, and i appologise, iam being somewhat of a hypocrite here. i dont mean to label the entire the city, edmonton with there long history has some of the most hockey smart people in the league, but on this board, calgary, edmonton, and vancouver have some of the most ignorant fans as well.

all three cities are pasionate about there team and are very defensive when people say something negative, some people just dont know how to respond. iam one of the sometimes.

again i shouldnt label the entire city based on a few rejects, and i will make sure to reword it correctly next time

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01-09-2007, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by natural420 View Post
your right, and i appologise, iam being somewhat of a hypocrite here. i dont mean to label the entire the city, edmonton with there long history has some of the most hockey smart people in the league, but on this board, calgary, edmonton, and vancouver have some of the most ignorant fans as well.

all three cities are pasionate about there team and are very defensive when people say something negative, some people just dont know how to respond. iam one of the sometimes.

again i shouldnt label the entire city based on a few rejects, and i will make sure to reword it correctly next time
Except of course when it relates to Toronto.


(just kidding ).

Who really cares about ranking anyhow? It means nothing. The only one that counts are the actual standings.

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Old
01-09-2007, 12:19 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by HuMz View Post

Calgary has only led the division for 5 games this year.......yet edmonton the team that has no arugment has led it for 35, how does that work?

montreal- 42 gp 51 pts
vancouver-43 gp 49 pts
ottawa- 44gp 48 pts
calgary- 40 gp 46 pts
toronto- 43 gp 44 pts
edmonton- 41gp 42 pts


4 points behind with one more game played. i think its pretty obvious the answer to your question SO FAR in the season. how long you've lead the division doesnt mean squat no matter how you look at it if you dont hold on to it.

the rangers last season are a good example. had it all year to lose it the final game and lose home ice advantage. were they still given home ice advantage because they had the division for more games??

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01-09-2007, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by natural420 View Post
your right, and i appologise, iam being somewhat of a hypocrite here. i dont mean to label the entire the city, edmonton with there long history has some of the most hockey smart people in the league, but on this board, calgary, edmonton, and vancouver have some of the most ignorant fans as well.

all three cities are pasionate about there team and are very defensive when people say something negative, some people just dont know how to respond. iam one of the sometimes.

again i shouldnt label the entire city based on a few rejects, and i will make sure to reword it correctly next time
No worries. I am required, according to my heritage, to respond to the 'anti-Edmonton alarm' that rings every time someone on this board says something bad about E-town. Plus, I live in both cities so it was a double shot at me

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01-09-2007, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dubya View Post
No worries. I am required, according to my heritage, to respond to the 'anti-Edmonton alarm' that rings every time someone on this board says something bad about E-town. Plus, I live in both cities so it was a double shot at me
dosent it seem that calgary and edmonton fans are ALWAYS caught defending our teams against the entire league because they dislike that we've been the underdogs making the run at the cup. (jealousy) then we go at eachother too. really its hard not to be stupid on these boards sometimes. but some people are just plain dumb. wont name any names, but we all know who they are

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Old
01-09-2007, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Who really cares about ranking anyhow? It means nothing. The only one that counts are the actual standings.
Hey, be nice. At the end of the season this ranking will be all Flames fans have to keep them warm at night.

I know, I should be quiet...glass houses and all that...

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Old
01-09-2007, 02:50 AM
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Cullen is an idiot. I emailed him about something awhile back and he completely ignored the question and just re-iterated the same stuff I was asking him to justify.

If he's using those justifications to put one team over the other, then the changes in the rankings should not be as drastic as it is week after week (when teams move up 10 places or something).

IMO, they should publish the formula they're using and then just go with that for the season.

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Old
01-09-2007, 03:36 AM
  #16
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[QUOTE=natural420;7601445]its just typical vancouver/edmonton ignorance. [\QUOTE]

You cant actually believe that flames fans are less ignorant in general?? its all evenly distributed across the teams, the annoying and ignorant fans, and the good ones. You cant blame Canucks fans for being mad that their team was ranked 18th...they are 10th overall after all, while the Calgary Flames are slightly behind with games in hand. Personally I dont care i just laughed at the rankings. TSN hasnt done their homework on this one.

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Old
01-09-2007, 03:53 AM
  #17
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Tsn has done their homework. Good work .

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Old
01-09-2007, 04:58 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by abracanada View Post
I guess TSN has had a lot of complaints about how the Flames were ranked ahead of the Nucks and Oil. The guy can back it up though. ( Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=191404&hubname




On to the mail...

I find it hard to understand why the Calgary Flames can be ranked 4th while the Canucks are ranked 18th. Before heading into the games on January 2nd, the flames were 5-4-1 in their last 10 games and the Canucks were 6-4-0. Also the Canucks had won three straight including two versus the Flames and added another victory over the Flames tonight (Jan 2). It makes me wonder if you guys in Ontario even know what's happening out west or if there are other ranking factors that I am not aware of. Ian Frew, Vancouver

As much as I enjoyed the unnecessary anti-Ontario dig, the closeness of the Northwest division is causing major concerns in Western Canada and my inbox reflects as much. In order to answer the bulk of those complaints, I'm going to provide my breakdown for each of Canada's teams in the Northwest (please accept my apologies, Colorado and Minnesota fans).

FLAMES VS. OILERS VS. CANUCKS





Flames Centres:
Daymond Langkow
Matthew Lombardi
Stephane Yelle
Byron Ritchie

85 points, plus-34 (Yelle also missed 22 games)

Oilers Centres:
Jarret Stoll
Petr Sykora
Shawn Horcoff
Marty Reasoner

107 points, minus-15

Canucks Centres:
Henrik Sedin
Brendan Morrison
Ryan Kesler
Marc Chouinard

80 points, minus-12

Advantage: Flames

Flames Left Wingers:
Kristian Huselius
Alex Tanguay
Jeff Friesen
Jamie Lundmark

75 points, plus-16

Oilers Left Wingers:
Ryan Smyth
Raffi Torres
Petr Nedved *
Toby Petersen

* You can flip Nedved and Sykora (but Sykora has been centre for most of the season, that's why I included him in that group).

69 points, minus-16 (Smyth missed ten games)

Canucks Left Wingers:
Daniel Sedin
Matt Cooke
Jan Bulis
Josh Green

67 points, minus-12

Advantage: Flames

Flames Right Wingers:
(No Jarome Iginla)
Tony Amonte
Chuck Kobasew
David Moss
Darren McCarty

37 points, plus-8 (Moss and Dustin Boyd are wildcards, having played a combined 14 games, particularly in the absence of Iginla)

Oilers Right Wingers:
Ales Hemsky
Joffrey Lupul
Fernando Pisani
Brad Winchester

70 points, minus-7 (Hemsky missed eight games)

Canucks Right Wingers:
Markus Naslund
Trevor Linden
Taylor Pyatt
Alexandre Burrows

62 points, minus-12

Advantage: Oilers

Flames Defence:
Dion Phaneuf
Robyn Regehr
Roman Hamrlik
Rhett Warrener
Andrew Ference
Mark Giordano

70 points, plus-64

Oilers Defence:
Steve Staios
Jason Smith
Daniel Tjarnqvist
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Matt Greene
Jan Hejda
(Ladislav Smid hurt)

60 points, minus-9

Canucks Defence:
Mattias Ohlund
Sami Salo
Kevin Bieksa
Willie Mitchell
Lukas Krajicek
Rory Fitzpatrick

75 points, minus-11 (Salo missed ten games)

Advantage: Flames

Flames Goaltending
2.60 GAA -- 8th in the league
.914 SVPCT - 5th in the league

Oilers Goaltending
2.93 GAA - 16th in the league
.898 SVPCT - 19th in the league

Canucks Goaltending
2.56 GAA - 6th in the league
.909 SVPCT - 9th in the league

Advantage: Very close between Vancouver and Calgary

So, by all means, disagree with my evaluations and rankings if you must, but there are numbers that actually support ranking the Flames ahead of their Western Canadian counterparts. Perhaps the loss of Iginla will even things out. - SC
i dont think point totals is a really effective way to compare sides...
If it were, the flames would have beat vancouver at least once in the last 3 games (or 2 games not sure how many vcr has won in a row vs the flames)

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Old
01-09-2007, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Cullen is an idiot. I emailed him about something awhile back and he completely ignored the question and just re-iterated the same stuff I was asking him to justify.

If he's using those justifications to put one team over the other, then the changes in the rankings should not be as drastic as it is week after week (when teams move up 10 places or something).

IMO, they should publish the formula they're using and then just go with that for the season.
I might be wrong, but isn't it all based on the player value that they have for all NHLers on TSN.ca? I thought they do a statistical combination of the value of all the players they have and rank how the teams look for the coming week. Injuries therefore, play a big role as seen by the big drop Anaheim took when they lost Pronger & their goalies.

Either way, standings are all that matters.

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01-09-2007, 11:55 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Cullen is an idiot. I emailed him about something awhile back and he completely ignored the question and just re-iterated the same stuff I was asking him to justify.

If he's using those justifications to put one team over the other, then the changes in the rankings should not be as drastic as it is week after week (when teams move up 10 places or something).

IMO, they should publish the formula they're using and then just go with that for the season.

I think its pretty obvious how they do their rankings, and since it's based on individual statistical production, when you don't score very often or all your top scorers are minus players you're going to be lower down, and when you lose scoring players to injury, that obviously will lower your ranking because they aren't in the formula. (For example Ottawa losing Spezza = Much Lower Ranking, Vancouver players not scoring many goals = Lower Ranking). I don't think it has anything to do with winning games. When top players come in and out of the linup it will cause drastic changes in standings.

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01-09-2007, 12:26 PM
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Not only scoring, but +/- and goal tending. I must admit though, that scoring appears to play the major role in determining top teams. Also, winning percentage is another factor that seems to be considered. They ignore inter-game rivalries but I don't really know how you could factor that in, and overall, if the Flames are in a position to pass Vancouver in the standings as a consequence of games in hand and winning percentage, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise would be to pretend you knew what the outcomes of games between them was gonna be, with no statistical support.

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01-09-2007, 03:18 PM
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Even if he is using indiv. player value and indiv. stats / +,- those things dont' change that suddenly to vault certain teams up/down 5-7 spots. Teams slowly get worse / better in indiv. stats week by week and if this is the criteria than the pr should have teams shifting as slow accordingly.

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01-09-2007, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Even if he is using indiv. player value and indiv. stats / +,- those things dont' change that suddenly to vault certain teams up/down 5-7 spots. Teams slowly get worse / better in indiv. stats week by week and if this is the criteria than the pr should have teams shifting as slow accordingly.
You are forgetting about injuries though, that is the reason for Anaheim's drop and most team's rises can be factored into returning players or other teams losing top players that were in front of them.

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01-09-2007, 06:09 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by StreakingRed View Post
Some Canucks fans as of late seem to think that a 7 game winning streak is reason to plan a Cup parade or something. I give the Canucks credit for having played really well in their last 7 games (they've played better than the Flames as of late, can't deny that, even if they didn't deserve EVERY WIN in that 7 game win stretch), but a 7 game winning streak doesn't take away from the mediocre season they've had leading up to this run.
the flames have been just as mediocre.

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01-09-2007, 06:30 PM
  #25
abracanada
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
the flames have been just as mediocre.
Iginla or Langkow have been mediocre? Okay.

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