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01-03-2007, 04:22 PM
  #1
westcory
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Lupul Ice Time

Why does Lupul continue to get more ice time thane Hemmer and Torres? I think he is becoming a MacT favorite and will be untouchable like horc. MacT snapped at a reporter in the post game press conference for saying lupul is slumping....The guy is a defensive liability.

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01-03-2007, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by westcory View Post
Why does Lupul continue to get more ice time thane Hemmer and Torres? I think he is becoming a MacT favorite and will be untouchable like horc. MacT snapped at a reporter in the post game press conference for saying lupul is slumping....The guy is a defensive liability.
Yea, he did get pretty pissed at that guy.

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01-03-2007, 04:35 PM
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Package lupul and horcoff togther, get something nice in return

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01-03-2007, 04:36 PM
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I think that as a coach you have to identify times that you go to the whip and times you dangle the carrot.

In Lupul's case I think that is a no brainer to suggest that he has struggled in his first year here and early on MacT was on the whip early to try and get him out of his funk. It didn't work and as a result I think it's simply a change of tactics on MacT's part.

I'm not really a Lupul fan as of yet but even I can see that the kid has a decent amount of potential, certainly alot more than he is showing. I hope MacT can coax it out of him because I would sure like to see that potential realized here as opposed to soemwhere else.

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01-03-2007, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by westcory View Post
Why does Lupul continue to get more ice time thane Hemmer and Torres? I think he is becoming a MacT favorite and will be untouchable like horc. MacT snapped at a reporter in the post game press conference for saying lupul is slumping....The guy is a defensive liability.
I agree. I think it is pretty inappropriate for a coach to defend one of his players. Stupid Mac-T.

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01-03-2007, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by westcory View Post
Why does Lupul continue to get more ice time thane Hemmer and Torres? I think he is becoming a MacT favorite and will be untouchable like horc. MacT snapped at a reporter in the post game press conference for saying lupul is slumping....The guy is a defensive liability.
Everyone keeps saying get rid of him because he is a defensive liability... do you not think that a full year under MacT will not make him a better defensive player? MacT is notorious for turning forwards into solid two-way forward. That being said, Lupul will only get better both defensively and offensively.

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01-03-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by westcory View Post
MacT snapped at a reporter in the post game press conference for saying lupul is slumping....The guy is a defensive liability.
I heard that. MacT has his head in the friggin' clouds.
"If I ignore it, it will allllll go away".

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01-04-2007, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I think that as a coach you have to identify times that you go to the whip and times you dangle the carrot.

In Lupul's case I think that is a no brainer to suggest that he has struggled in his first year here and early on MacT was on the whip early to try and get him out of his funk. It didn't work and as a result I think it's simply a change of tactics on MacT's part.

I'm not really a Lupul fan as of yet but even I can see that the kid has a decent amount of potential, certainly alot more than he is showing. I hope MacT can coax it out of him because I would sure like to see that potential realized here as opposed to soemwhere else.
I very much agree. MacT is in a tough position and he's trying different things to get the real Joffrey Lupul to please stand up. Here's an idea though...let him spend some time with specific linemates and maybe (just MAYBE) he'll figure out that his mates rely on him to contribute in order for the line to be successful.

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01-04-2007, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Afterglow View Post
I very much agree. MacT is in a tough position and he's trying different things to get the real Joffrey Lupul to please stand up. Here's an idea though...let him spend some time with specific linemates and maybe (just MAYBE) he'll figure out that his mates rely on him to contribute in order for the line to be successful.
exactly, I think he is the only guy who has played with every possible Oiler on this team.

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01-04-2007, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
exactly, I think he is the only guy who has played with every possible Oiler on this team.
It seems like a simple idea but is it really?

When we talk about Lupul struggling we can certainly say that he has had trouble finding chemistry and an easy fix may be to give him regular line mates for a stretch.

When talking about individual players, we can make similar assertions.

When we talk about Sykora going cold we can say he should be playing with Hemsky.

When we talk about Schremp's development we can say that he needs a shot with the big club.

And on and on it goes.

The rub is that MacT's First and formost priority is to try and coax two points of this team game in and game out. To micro manage every decision or non decision regarding individual players flies directly in the face of the overall goal.

Lupul isn't getting regular line mates because HE isn't fitting with guys who are starting to click.

Hemsky can't just play with Sykora because he is the only true game breaker on the roster and you can't limit a guy that can have that type of impact throughout the line up.

You can't simply give Schremp his shot because the LAST thing the Oilers need is ANOTHER rookie who may or may not find his game at the next level.

It's just a cold hard truth that in Lupul's case, it's really up to Lupul. Not MacT. MacT can support him, coach him and give him opportunities but he can not alter the overall make up/chemistry of the team just to get one guy going.

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01-04-2007, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
It seems like a simple idea but is it really?

When we talk about Lupul struggling we can certainly say that he has had trouble finding chemistry and an easy fix may be to give him regular line mates for a stretch.
Really tell me how easy is it to fit when shift after shift he does not know who he is playing with.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
When talking about individual players, we can make similar assertions.

When we talk about Sykora going cold we can say he should be playing with Hemsky.
.
And he should, it does not take rocket science to see that Sykora is a different player when he is with Hemsky. But noo we have to juggle lines again because Horcoff isn't getting it done offensively

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
When we talk about Schremp's development we can say that he needs a shot with the big club.
.
No he doesn't he needs to develop as a pro first, just like Pouliot needs to and with the big club playing with plugs and grinders for three minutes a game will do sqaut for them.
And on and on it goes.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Lupul isn't getting regular line mates because HE isn't fitting with guys who are starting to click.
Well he seems to have found chemistry with the reasoner line before Smyth came back

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Hemsky can't just play with Sykora because he is the only true game breaker on the roster and you can't limit a guy that can have that type of impact throughout the line up.
So great we have him with Horcoff so Shawn can kill more plays. Him and Skykora are good because they compliment each other - both can skate, both have soft hands that can make quick play, both see the ice like no one else, both create ice for each other, and Hemsky has someone to set up.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
It's just a cold hard truth that in Lupul's case, it's really up to Lupul. Not MacT. MacT can support him, coach him and give him opportunities but he can not alter the overall make up/chemistry of the team just to get one guy going.
Really tell me how easy is it to fit when shift after shift he does not know who he is playing with. And it seems that Mac T alters the chemistry GAME IN AND GAME OUT.

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01-04-2007, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Really tell me how easy is it to fit when shift after shift he does not know who he is playing with. ...
Despite disecting my post line by line, it is clear that you missed my point entirely.

A simple question. Is MacT's primary task to do the best he can at ensuring the TEAM can succeed or at ensuring any one INDIVIDUAL can succeed?

That was my entire point. If you think that it's all about the individual then so be it, I happen to think it's about the team.

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01-04-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Despite disecting my post line by line, it is clear that you missed my point entirely.

A simple question. Is MacT's primary task to do the best he can at ensuring the TEAM can succeed or at ensuring any one INDIVIDUAL can succeed?

That was my entire point. If you think that it's all about the individual then so be it, I happen to think it's about the team.
of course it isn't all about the individual, but it certainly helps to find another combination that clicks...especially when the prospect of finding the joffrey lupul we traded for is the desired conclusion. no?

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01-04-2007, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Despite disecting my post line by line, it is clear that you missed my point entirely.

A simple question. Is MacT's primary task to do the best he can at ensuring the TEAM can succeed or at ensuring any one INDIVIDUAL can succeed?

That was my entire point. If you think that it's all about the individual then so be it, I happen to think it's about the team.
Is Lupul not part of the team, and is Lupul's lack of success hurting the team - yes. Like I said before how many times does Mac T whip out his blender because a line had a bad shift ? ask anyone who is an Oilers fan and they will say consatantly, and does it help or hinder the Oilers ? it hinders them because the players all of a sudden scrambling around to figure out *** is going on and wasting valuble shifts trying to figure out what each persons does on the line. It is not rocket science (as you say) to figure out yes so and so plays well together, if you KEEP THEM TOGETHER for more than three shifts.

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01-04-2007, 04:03 PM
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Everyone keeps saying get rid of him because he is a defensive liability... do you not think that a full year under MacT will not make him a better defensive player? MacT is notorious for turning forwards into solid two-way forward. That being said, Lupul will only get better both defensively and offensively.
But it is worth turning a possible 50 goal scorer into a 35 goal scorer that can check? I don't think so. Lupul was brought in to score goals. To turn him into a checker totally defeats what he was brought to Edmonton to do. I don't get a coach's fascination with neutering an offensive player's game just so that he can check. If Lupul is a liability defensively, then you put him on a line with teammates who will make up for his lack of defensive awareness. Why is something like that so hard to envision?

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01-04-2007, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Really tell me how easy is it to fit when shift after shift he does not know who he is playing with.

These are rough numbers. But if my memory serves me, is about right

10GP Lupul - played with Horcoff and Smyth -- never really got going, but the Thoresykemsky line was
10 GP Lupul - played with Torres and Stoll -- all three were piss poor during this stretch, but Smycoffsani was doing well
8-10 GP Lupul - played with Sykora and Horcoff -- never got offence, got burned a few times, but Torrestollsani was hot
about 6 GP Lupul played with Peterson/Smyth and Reasoner -- looked good, but 4 game losing stretch

What's the friggin mystery for him? He's had the same linemates for almost equal quartiles of the season.

You will see some juggling in the first 3-4 shifts after lots of PK's or PP's in order to rest the guys who were out alot.

Horcoff is 5th on the team at 20 points and is at his best when he is with Smyth. While he should have at least 10 more than that at this point, he is hardly the reason the lines are being shifted. The bottom line is, who are the lines/matches that allow the coach to have the best opportunity to beat each opposition lineup.

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01-04-2007, 04:23 PM
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To turn him into a checker totally defeats what he was brought to Edmonton to do. I don't get a coach's fascination with neutering an offensive player's game just so that he can check.
There is a big difference between demanding that a player is responsible when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game and turning a scorer into a checker.

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01-04-2007, 04:32 PM
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Lupul would probably first to admit that he hasn't had the type of year he hoped for but the good news is there is only one way to go but up. As for juggling what do you think with all the losses any coach would be doing benching certain players will do nothing but negatives for the whole team. I still think he has to shoot more last time I checked he was going to finish 100 shots behind his pace last year.

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01-04-2007, 04:33 PM
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These are rough numbers. But if my memory serves me, is about right

10GP Lupul - played with Horcoff and Smyth -- never really got going, but the Thoresykemsky line was
10 GP Lupul - played with Torres and Stoll -- all three were piss poor during this stretch, but Smycoffsani was doing well
8-10 GP Lupul - played with Sykora and Horcoff -- never got offence, got burned a few times, but Torrestollsani was hot
about 6 GP Lupul played with Peterson/Smyth and Reasoner -- looked good, but 4 game losing stretch

What's the friggin mystery for him? He's had the same linemates for almost equal quartiles of the season.

You will see some juggling in the first 3-4 shifts after lots of PK's or PP's in order to rest the guys who were out alot.

Horcoff is 5th on the team at 20 points and is at his best when he is with Smyth. While he should have at least 10 more than that at this point, he is hardly the reason the lines are being shifted. The bottom line is, who are the lines/matches that allow the coach to have the best opportunity to beat each opposition lineup.
yes you are right, it was Lupul's fault that we lost those games, seeing how in the Pho, Dallas, LA, he was not a minus player and against the Nucks he was not to blame for Ohlund scoring out of the box on a break away (all games he was with Reasoner) and for the Calgary game there is no way that you can blame him for those goals either. As well he played reasonably well in terms of going into th ecorners, and getting shots during that stretch. Added to that you sit there and talk about 10 games here and 10 games there tell me HOW MANY OF THEM were actually in a row, VERY LITTLE of them.

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01-04-2007, 04:35 PM
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There is a big difference between demanding that a player is responsible when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game and turning a scorer into a checker.
See I love these comments, you sit there and talk about demanding defensive responsibility but tell me this, of the goals he has been on for tell me how many d men have been on in ? because that is the man he is supose to be covering

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01-04-2007, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Is Lupul not part of the team, and is Lupul's lack of success hurting the team - yes. Like I said before how many times does Mac T whip out his blender because a line had a bad shift ? ask anyone who is an Oilers fan and they will say consatantly, and does it help or hinder the Oilers ? it hinders them because the players all of a sudden scrambling around to figure out *** is going on and wasting valuble shifts trying to figure out what each persons does on the line. It is not rocket science (as you say) to figure out yes so and so plays well together, if you KEEP THEM TOGETHER for more than three shifts.
With all due respect, alot of what Oilers fans tend to say have very little basis in reality or at the very least it is often blown way out of proportion. Such as the tried and true 'Petersen is getting more ice time than Lupul' gem that was beaten to death about a month ago, or the line up of HF jumpers along the high level bridge the morning after every single damn Oilers loss.

Look, if what your asking is whether or not Lupul playing poorly is hurting the team then, yeah I agree. If he was playing better would it reflect in the team doing better? Sure it would.

But again this is somewhat off topic from the angle I am coming from. What I am suggesting is that MacT can't afford to keep throwing Lupul out on the ice in any situation when he is not showing any signs of snapping out of it, he can not keep him with Torres and Stoll (an arbitrary example) when the other two are showing signs of life but the play is dying with Lupul, he can not afford to keep throwing him over the boards when the defence is over their heads and Lupul is missing his defensive zone assignments as well.

Pick any player off the roster and apply the same logic, this isn't just about Lupul.

The game starts with paper lines. It's MacT's job through the course of the game to make sure the team has the best possible chance to succeed. Part of that is adjusting lines, rotating players at different times and absolutely identifying which guys are playing well in the moment. Lines get changed because players outright aren't playing well, lines get changed because of extensive special teams play, lines get changed because of injuries. It is his job to sort through all of that but by the end of the night, if you look real close you will be hard pressed to not find one reason or another for the decisions he made. That is what you want in a coach, not a guy that simply opens the gate and let's the forwards on to the ice three at a time, damn the consequences and regardless of effectiveness.

The guy the Oilers traded for is here, he just isn't playing well and just like Raffi Torres who was in a prolonged slump of his own, it's up to the individual to snap themselves out of it, not the coach to cater to the individual. MacT's responsibility here is to make sure that when Lupul hit's the ice, regardless of who it is with, it's in a situation that allows Lupul to succeed. I think he has done a reasonable job at that, which includes him sticking up for Lupul with the reporter, and now the rest is up to Lupul.

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01-04-2007, 04:45 PM
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I think we got off topic a bit here....Why does Lupul get more ice time than Hemmer and Stoli? I think we can all say Torres is far better than Lupul this season but yet Lupul gets all the pp time and 5 more minutes of total ice time a game.

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01-04-2007, 04:50 PM
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See I love these comments, you sit there and talk about demanding defensive responsibility but tell me this, of the goals he has been on for tell me how many d men have been on in ? because that is the man he is supose to be covering
What are you talking about?

My comment was directed at the poster that suggested that MacT wants to turn Lupul into a checker.

I was just suggesting that it's not about Lupul becoming a checker but becoming more responsible in his own end, which is nothing more than saying they want him him to be a better overall player. A reasonable goal for any player and one that shouldn't compromise his offensive game one bit.

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01-04-2007, 04:58 PM
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What are you talking about?

My comment was directed at the poster that suggested that MacT wants to turn Lupul into a checker.

I was just suggesting that it's not about Lupul becoming a checker but becoming more responsible in his own end, which is nothing more than saying they want him him to be a better overall player. A reasonable goal for any player and one that shouldn't compromise his offensive game one bit.
what am I talking about it is this myth that Lupul is soo horrible in the defensive zone, that is why I asked how many goals are d men in on because that is his man first and foremost. A prime example is that Calgary game where he was a minus 2, but tell me on either of those goals was it Lupuls man that scored or was in on it - no.

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01-04-2007, 05:06 PM
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what am I talking about it is this myth that Lupul is soo horrible in the defensive zone, that is why I asked how many goals are d men in on because that is his man first and foremost. A prime example is that Calgary game where he was a minus 2, but tell me on either of those goals was it Lupuls man that scored or was in on it - no.
Which means what?

Of the times he is on the ice when the Oilers score, has he been directly responsible for all the +'s?

It's a "*&^% happens" type of argument. Of course not all goals against are not directly accountable back to - in this case - Lupul, just as all the +'s aren't either.

However it's the trends that you have to look at more than the specifics and as of today, and not counting Nedved's excess baggage, Lupul's trend is that he is on the ice alot more for goals against than he is goals for.

That you can't possibly deny.

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