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A plea for a modicum of decency.

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Old
01-04-2007, 11:56 AM
  #26
Digger12
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As one of the apparent "old guard" (I came here mere days after 'Redtwilight' passed on), I'd have to say this board's evolution has been an interesting study. Messier/Slats432 captured the basics of it very well.

It's a nebulous thing, netiquette. Hard to create, very easy to lose. I'd like the boards to be like they were 2-3 years ago, but I doubt that's possible at this point.

My philosophy's always been that communication is communication, and that just because we have relative anonymity here shouldn't give one license to exlore their sociopathic tendencies. We're all people behind these data input devices...except for Smyth2Hemsky, who to my dying day will swear is just a posting bot.

I know there's been much lamentation about the loss of hardcore statistical analysis via the departures of guys like Mudcrutch79 and Igor, but in all fairness it should be noted that they didn't do themselves any favours either with their elitist views on posters they deemed unworthy. I recall one particularly vicious personal attack by Igor on theoil that amounted to Igor's self-immolation on these boards as he got banned for a while and has only come back sporadically since, which is a shame.

One other thing...I know it's become somewhat fashionable for some to take potshots at Ontoilfan for his overly negative views, but IMO it's getting a bit ridiculous. He's overly harsh at times, but IMO he has some good views on this team and unlike some of his detractors, he at least keeps it civil for the most part.

We can't all be realists/cynics, but nor should we be a mindless booster club. There's room for both views, hell I've swung back and forth from both fences over the years.

To sum up: This thread needs a soundtrack, something from St. Elmo's Fire I think.

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Old
01-04-2007, 11:56 AM
  #27
mamettt
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Originally Posted by Poochiemoo View Post
I think there is something in asking people to think about their posts, and to take some time and care in crafting what they inflict on the rest of us. You might want to frame it in free-speech, but I think it has more to do with respectful communication in public fora.
But what constitutes "respectful communication in public fora"? And who gets to decide what that is? And once you make that definition, what are the rules that should enforce it? There's a slippery slope- and I use the expression knowing that its incredibly overused- between trying to raise the level of debate and between limiting what people can/canno say. I'm all for asking people to put efforts into their posts, but if they want to rant there's little we can or should do about it. As long as its respectful of others here and not personally/racially insulting then it should be allowed. I'd rather wade through some awful posts than come here and be told what I should write about.

And as others have pointed out, you quickly come to know whose posts are worth reading and whose aren't. There's a certain natural selection process that weeds out the bad reads.

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Old
01-04-2007, 12:01 PM
  #28
faneuil
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
To sum up: This thread needs a soundtrack, something from St. Elmo's Fire I think.
Like Stressed Out by Airplay.

Scary, I watched that movie this past weekend.

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Old
01-04-2007, 12:55 PM
  #29
jadeddog
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ive been a member for quite a long time (i think about 4 years now), and this thread seems to pop up about once a year or so.... and this was true even in the 1st year that i was a member ..... everybody always thinks that the past was better, this idealizing of the past exists in every facet of life, if you dont belive me have a conversation with my pops, lol

but i will agree that the boards have had a lot more infighting since the stanley cup run and we have lost some important posters.... there are 2 simple rules

1. dont insult somebody personally
2. if you do accidentally insult somebody (or they take it as in insult when it wasnt meant to be), apologize immediately

ive been an extrememly active member of about 5-7 message boards since message boards existed on the internet, haha, yeah i know, i know.... im pathetic.... i work in IT though, so im in front of a computer all day with time to kill .... anyways.... every message board works pretty much the same, and this one is no different, just dont be an *** to other posters and dont stomp all over their ideas without saying something like "this isnt an insult to you, i respect your ideas".... i know its sounds dumb to put that 1 little sentence in your response, but its needed on the internet

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Old
01-04-2007, 01:10 PM
  #30
Master Lok
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As I said in another thread - I think the negativity is actually BETTER than last year's where there was literally a Fire mact or Fire lowe thread after nearly every loss. That being said - I have seen a downturn here since I first joined.

Suggested Improvements:
1) Negativity is certainly going to occur - but outright pessimism is just a waste of space. For example, If you're going to post that Mact is a bad coach - at least explain why and back it up. Saying that MacT can't develop prospects and then ignoring the body of evidence presented by other posters, and just repeating that mact sucks because its "obvious" is what i define as "pessimistic".

2) Never any room for personal insults.

3) Information - actual informative posts with stats was one of the big draws when I joined hfboards. While I won't pretend to understand the statistical analysis, it was certainly thought-provoking detail that I respected. When was the last thread which really made you re-think some hockey ideas posted on here? Most of the threads these days are so-called Trade Proposals or GDT's (which I enjoy) or Negative Rips. Why bother coming onto these boards if that's the only stuff posted here?

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Old
01-04-2007, 01:16 PM
  #31
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
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I used to be one of the dissenters around here...now I'm part of the bloody establishment...shall I laugh or cry? Me and DB don't even get into screaming matches anymore...what has the world come to?

And I think we all know better than to state that MC left permanently...

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Old
01-04-2007, 02:18 PM
  #32
dynastydays
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Like it or not, the collective I.Q. of these boards has taken a nose dive. A lot of real contributors that had things to say that were worth saying are long gone. There has been a large influx of new people that do not have the luxury or interest of learning about the game from the forementioned people.

Don't get me wrong, there are astute hockey people still here, so dont take this as a blanket summation for everyone. However, overall its just mostly gibberish around these parts now.

The intelligent discussions are still happening, but theres just way too much nonsense to cipher through for me to be bothered anymore.

Anyways, call that a soapbox or whatever, just my two cents.

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Old
01-04-2007, 02:32 PM
  #33
Gee Wally
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I hope you all don't mind an outsider chiming in here.
I have been around this place a long while ( me and lain have had some great Gump Worsley talks) and what is being discussed here is the same throughout most of the boards here at HF. I think George laid it out as well as possible. It's growth...urban sprawl if you will.

Growth can't be stopped. I guess it is up to all of us that want more...that remember more.....to conduct ourselves in a certain manner. To respond to assinine posts in a certain way. To basically take the higher road and the hopes that most will in fact "get it". Now, not all will to be sure. Then it will need to be dealt with in other ways I guess.

I think just the fact that this thread is here and the dialouge is well thought out, civil, and thought provoking speaks volumes for all of you taking part in it. The first step to impacting something is finding that common ground. You have collectively done so.

Hang in there gang. This particular board has always been a very class act. I can see that foundation is still strong.

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Old
01-04-2007, 03:16 PM
  #34
OYLer
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The Jekyll & Hyde approach...

Seems to me, settling for 'a modicum' or "a moderate, small or token amount," of decency gives rise to this problem seediness to begin with. Expecting, accepting, and demanding better behaviour means having to enforce minimum standards of conduct, more in the immediate future, so less need be applied in the long run. Of course, this would require, self-imposed personal responsibility, and a collective will of increased accountability within our HF - Oilers community.

At the beginning of another New Year here at Hockey Futures’ Oilers' BBS, collectively, we all aught to agree to show, to expect, even to demand to be afforded momentous amounts of human decency. To show and be shown individual respect should constitute the very minimum standard of interaction.

Enforcement of basic behaviour, of mannerliness, of a correctness of exchange will certainly help move this site back towards an excellence of discourse, rather than to perpetuate a heap of disgorged rubbish. Re-sighting this site's understanding of what comprises a minimum acceptable level of conduct, and then each of us, individually and voluntarily committing to conform to a higher ethical standard would be a positive first step.

To first envision, next attempt, and further neither to expect nor to accept anything less, and finally, to demand of others, as well as ourselves, that we all apply a higher degree of presentation skills, towards attaining an effective collective of communication must become and remain sacrosanct. To punctuate such efforts, and with an enhanced poise herein we could all choose to better craft our ideas, and then to engage in a graceful contemplative interaction with other posters. This aught to become our number one goal.

We can all redouble our commitment by backing-up our individual efforts with a lively and spirited determination to succeed by providing evidence of our particular assertions of rightness. To deliver improved individual performance and by doing so move foreword towards collectively achieving, an embodiment of what it means to create a win-win environment.

And for those whom fail to see the light (my enlightenment of course), then to pound their jeesely-stupid-dumbass-hides into submission, by any means possible.


Last edited by OYLer: 01-04-2007 at 04:23 PM.
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Old
01-04-2007, 03:43 PM
  #35
momentai
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I guess I would also be considered one of the "old guard" in terms of posters. While I understand that idealizing the past is commonplace, I don't believe that is necessarily the entire story here. There is a certain decorum that is a lacking. Why can't debates and arguments occur without pettiness? I don't believe there should be any reason to resort to insults and condescension. There is a rather large difference between forcing your position and debating its merits.

I post a lot more sporatically than before and some of that can be contributed to the fact that I'm a working stiff now and have less free time to spend at HF. Life does that to you I suppose. However, at times, I feel like I really have nothing further to contribute to the discussions ongoing whether good or bad.

There is reason to slats' position. With the increase in popularity of the boards (it has been steadily increasing since I've been here and probably quicker in the last couple years.), there's inevitably going to be an influx of posters that are more interested in stroking their own cyber ego that have a discussion on their hockey team. But I don't know if the general "old guard" populace is content in letting the boards be overrun.

You know? This whole thread probably smacks of elitism but I'd say the problem is pretty evident for anyone willing to listen.

And, slats, LT's thread about Pisani would probably be found on his blog, wouldn't it?

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01-04-2007, 03:52 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by momentai View Post
You know? This whole thread probably smacks of elitism but I'd say the problem is pretty evident for anyone willing to listen.

And, slats, LT's thread about Pisani would probably be found on his blog, wouldn't it?
One thing I noticed is that most of the replies are from the old timers...

I knew LT had a blog, but I just don't get over there often enough.

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01-04-2007, 04:03 PM
  #37
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What's the address of LT's blog? Or is there an inside joke that I am not aware of?

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Old
01-04-2007, 04:21 PM
  #38
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As a poster that has been coming here for a few years now, the only thing I have really noticed in change is that alot of the posters are more intolerant. There was a time that you could post your opinion, and not feel like you were going to be ridiculed for it. I know I went through a phase last spring where I was one of the ones that wasn't being tolerant. I stepped back most of the summer, and now I rarely post unless its something that I really feel is relevent, and hasn't been said. The main point of this post is that I think alot of posters as well as I, need to step back, and be more receptive to new ideas. Of course, that goes without saying that the new ideas need to be intelligent etc., but it wouldn't hurt anyone on here to stay off the personal attacks, if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing. As for calling the team out, I think we all have done it once or twice. One thing you have to love about Oiler fans is that they are passionate. Lets keep in mind were all guilty of that one. I of course am not condoning the trollers, especially the ones that create a new profile to just come on and incite arguments. Perhaps thats the whole root behind the negativity now, is this little charade that has been going on. Just something to keep in mind for us all.

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Old
01-04-2007, 04:32 PM
  #39
OYLer
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We torture with platitude that which has become a sad-i-tude...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messier View Post
One thing I noticed is that most of the replies are from the old timers.. ...
Tis a pity, but maybe a measured backlash where the whipped beings whose knuckles are rapped are those who would mindlessly defile of the ideal. Human perfection occurs in the exception we take to the rule ... especially if that rule has become twisted.


Last edited by OYLer: 01-04-2007 at 04:37 PM.
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Old
01-04-2007, 04:34 PM
  #40
Slats432
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What's the address of LT's blog? Or is there an inside joke that I am not aware of?
http://lowetide.blogspot.com/

No humour intended at all.

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01-04-2007, 04:41 PM
  #41
Sethis
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Originally Posted by mamettt View Post
What's the address of LT's blog? Or is there an inside joke that I am not aware of?
Right here:

http://lowetide.blogspot.com/

Just as good as anyone in the media in my books. Enjoy.

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Old
01-04-2007, 04:48 PM
  #42
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You know? This whole thread probably smacks of elitism but I'd say the problem is pretty evident for anyone willing to listen.
Not at all. I don't want that to come across. I think that everyone has something positive to contribute. I'd just like to get rid of the stuff, negative to the functionality of the boards.


Oh, and thanks for the...um...endorsement? OYLer.

Just kidding. It certainly wouldn't be the same place without you.

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Old
01-04-2007, 05:03 PM
  #43
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A thread dedicated to me, the average joe. Oh alright I'll try to be "decent" from now on. I'll brush my hair from now on, I promise. Sheesh, didn't think you could see me through the monitor. Just don't expect me to use 5000 words to say our PP needs a better coach.

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01-04-2007, 05:42 PM
  #44
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A thread dedicated to me, the average joe. Oh alright I'll try to be "decent" from now on. I'll brush my hair from now on, I promise. Sheesh, didn't think you could see me through the monitor. Just don't expect me to use 5000 words to say our PP needs a better coach.
LOl, that's OYler's job...

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Old
01-04-2007, 07:28 PM
  #45
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So when I started posting here, the thing to do was to watch the boards for a while and get the feel of things first. The feel at the time was that there were a lot of knowledgeable posters here, and it was a place of great discussion and class. It was the best place on the web to discuss the Oilers. HF wasn't nearly as big back then. For about a year, I was able to read every single post in every single thread. I enjoyed it quite a lot.

Now that isn't to say that there weren't arguments. I remember an epic one between speeds and gretzky2kurri. It got very heated.

Anyway, HF is a different place now. People don't come here and respect the feel of the boards anymore. They don't come here with class and keep the discussions civil. I know I'm not the only one who feels this. There are a lot of really good posters that just don't come around here as often, if at all, anymore. That is a real shame. It takes away from the experience for all of us.

Now, I'm not going to claim that I like everyone's viewpoints, here. I am an optimist, and as such, find the rampant pessimism hard to swallow. Typically, I don't come on after a particularly stinging loss. It's too hard to read through threads at those times. I have in the past not liked posters, but as of yet have never blocked anyone that I can remember. I've been able to say my piece on several occasions, and a lot of the time, I respect the people I have a beef with, more, for having read their replies.

I know I don't post as much as some, or always have much to say (I tend not to say anything if what I think has already been said), but I feel like one of the old guard now. I still believe that HF is a great site and doesn't need to get out of hand like these things often do. It's the nature of the beast I'm afraid. I realize this has turned into somewhat of a soapbox rant, but the intent is a plea for decency. People will disagree. If we didn't, then there would be no discussion. Different opinions happen. Please realize this and deal with it. Please don't start insulting someone because you don't like what they're saying. It's frustrating to everyone else too. I would like to see HF regain some of the class that has been lost.

We can do this.
I couldn't agree more--And this is coming from a recovering Flamers troll

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Old
01-04-2007, 07:34 PM
  #46
momentai
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Originally Posted by Messier View Post
One thing I noticed is that most of the replies are from the old timers...
Yeah, you would have to figure that a majority of the replies would be... I don't know too many people that would loudly come out and say, "Yeah, I'm part of the problem!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairball View Post
Not at all. I don't want that to come across. I think that everyone has something positive to contribute. I'd just like to get rid of the stuff, negative to the functionality of the boards.
Oh I know that Hairball... but the way the topic is laid and given who has been responding, I'm sure it could be construed in that fashion. The comment was tongue-in-cheek more than anything, though.

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Old
01-04-2007, 10:00 PM
  #47
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It's all good. I love reading these boards for all kinds of reasons. Guy's amazing articles and updates, the veteran posters here (you guys know who you are), the draft guys, the people I know who pop in.

I miss MC and igor but can read them on their blogs, plus they pop in from time to time. I miss Louise a ton but have seen her on a few times. I miss redtwilight.

But you know what? This is the best place I've found to exchange ideas about our team and the best sport on planet earth. Maybe I don't post as much but there was a time when maybe I posted too much (I said MAYBE).

Time for the new ones to give us old buggers something to think about. We've come through a hangover that involved a gutshot final and then a kick to the junk.

We'll be fine. A little more respect would be nice.

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Old
01-05-2007, 12:33 AM
  #48
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should be interesting to see how much of this "respect" everybody is talking about happens after tonights gut-wrenching loss... i hope everybody still treats each other as if we were sitting right beside you, and not like the other poster isnt a real person (which is the biggest problem on internet message boards IMO)

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01-05-2007, 12:41 AM
  #49
theoil
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
I know there's been much lamentation about the loss of hardcore statistical analysis via the departures of guys like Mudcrutch79 and Igor, but in all fairness it should be noted that they didn't do themselves any favours either with their elitist views on posters they deemed unworthy. I recall one particularly vicious personal attack by Igor on theoil that amounted to Igor's self-immolation on these boards as he got banned for a while and has only come back sporadically since, which is a shame.
Ahh, yes, the self-immolation episode. Nice to be remembered for something. It's very strange that a thread on showing more respect for fellow posters would have so many mentions of the departure of Igor.

That said I rarely post here the last few months myself. If you talk to the serious and excellent posters on the Flame's board they will tell you that one of the things that happened to their board after their run is that it grew in members dramatically but the quality of the posting went in the other direction. Now, of course, their board is pretty quiet.

I would hope this doesn't happen here but this board is definitely in the doldrums in terms of content.

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Old
01-05-2007, 04:02 AM
  #50
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My elitist solution, start up a second Oiler board, just an offshoot of this one. Everyone who joined prior to 2004? season is eligible, after that it would be invite only. All a new poster would do is simply request membership, a mod would take a look at their posting history and make the decision. Rules would be much more strict on the new board, maybe 1 warning then a ban. You wouldn't need to be a genius to get in, just be able to contribute positively/constructively in someway. No trolls, and no more emo BS.

I'd think both boards would generate enough traffic to make it worth while. Anyone else all for cancelling the useless Flames forum and turning it into another Oiler board?

Oh well I can dream i guess

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