HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Ales Hemsky.. the most Clutch Player in the NHL

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-05-2007, 01:02 AM
  #26
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerfan_55 View Post
I just want to win as many hockey games as possible. If that comes from "plumbing", or from end to end rushes, I really couldnt care less. When the oilers win because of a nice play by hemsky, it gives me no more pleasure than if they win gritty and grind one out. The same can be said that it is no consolation to me if the team loses, but still hemsky has a hilight reel move. I just want wins, not "entertainment". "Skill" dosent always win the most hockey games, and that is important to remember.

That just about does it for the "rain on hemskys parade" portion of this post. Really though, congrats to him for a super nice finish on that last play in the third. I would have a tough time admitting that he hasnt brought me to my feet at rexall on more than a couple occasions.
hell I want to win to I don't care if we trap or not what I am refering to is how a guy like Shawn Horcoff can do no wrong yet hemsky does no right

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 01:17 AM
  #27
Oilerfan_55
Registered User
 
Oilerfan_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,531
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
hell I want to win to I don't care if we trap or not what I am refering to is how a guy like Shawn Horcoff can do no wrong yet hemsky does no right
I think its because horcoff is more than a scorer. In my eyes, he is a unique "#1 center" because of his versatility.

Their is no question that hemsky has more skill than horcoff. But as it usually goes, the guys with more skill always work less hard than the guys with less skill. That is why we see Horcoff hustling all over the ice and working his *** off. Sometimes I just see hemsky floating around, and not racing after pucks he could easily get to. Anyone else notice that when he gets knocked down, he takes forever to get back up and into the play???

For me personally, it is hard to really get on a guy like hemskys bandwagon because of this. THat doesnt mean that I do not appreciate what he brings to the team. A successful team needs a skill guy like hemsky. But really, give a hard-worker like moreau who never takes a second of any shift off the skill of hemsky, and he is a superstar. When things arent going good , I think that hard work gets appreciated more than hemskys skill. That may be why is seems that horcoff can "do no wrong". People just appreciate different styles of players, and the roles they fill on teams. I think that as of right now, it cant be argued that Horcoff plays a more important role on the Oilers than Hemsky does. Others might not see it that way though, and thats fine.

Oilerfan_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 01:18 AM
  #28
Danny__K
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,143
vCash: 50
we can argue the clutchiness of Hemsky, but one thing is for certain, Stefan is the most unclutch player in the NHL.

Danny__K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 01:22 AM
  #29
Fayne Gretzky
Registered User
 
Fayne Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny__K View Post
we can argue the clutchiness of Hemsky, but one thing is for certain, Stefan is the most unclutch player in the NHL.
VERY TRUE!!! What an ending WOW!

Fayne Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 01:26 AM
  #30
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerfan_55 View Post
I think its because horcoff is more than a scorer. In my eyes, he is a unique "#1 center" because of his versatility.

Their is no question that hemsky has more skill than horcoff. But as it usually goes, the guys with more skill always work less hard than the guys with less skill. That is why we see Horcoff hustling all over the ice and working his *** off. Sometimes I just see hemsky floating around, and not racing after pucks he could easily get to. Anyone else notice that when he gets knocked down, he takes forever to get back up and into the play???

For me personally, it is hard to really get on a guy like hemskys bandwagon because of this. THat doesnt mean that I do not appreciate what he brings to the team. A successful team needs a skill guy like hemsky. But really, give a hard-worker like moreau who never takes a second of any shift off the skill of hemsky, and he is a superstar. When things arent going good , I think that hard work gets appreciated more than hemskys skill. That may be why is seems that horcoff can "do no wrong". People just appreciate different styles of players, and the roles they fill on teams. I think that as of right now, it cant be argued that Horcoff plays a more important role on the Oilers than Hemsky does. Others might not see it that way though, and thats fine.
See exactly what I have been saying Horcoff has been terrible all year (with the exception of a few games) but yet he gets praised. He is not a scorer and infact he is a play killer. He is an average passer at best and a terrible shooter (in terms of hockey sense - i mean he is the only guy that thinks Terry Sawchuk is in net because he tries to shoot it through the goalie). He takes LAZY penalties routinly and how many times is it his man that socrers - many. Added to that he is Mr neutral zone faceoff (but he has got a little better in winning the big faceoffs) but yet it is hemsky's defensive performances or lack of shooting or net drive or whatever else that gets ragged on first.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 01:38 AM
  #31
Oilerfan_55
Registered User
 
Oilerfan_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,531
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
See exactly what I have been saying Horcoff has been terrible all year (with the exception of a few games) but yet he gets praised. He is not a scorer and infact he is a play killer. He is an average passer at best and a terrible shooter (in terms of hockey sense - i mean he is the only guy that thinks Terry Sawchuk is in net because he tries to shoot it through the goalie). He takes LAZY penalties routinly and how many times is it his man that socrers - many. Added to that he is Mr neutral zone faceoff (but he has got a little better in winning the big faceoffs) but yet it is hemsky's defensive performances or lack of shooting or net drive or whatever else that gets ragged on first.
Alot of people, including myself, think that horcoff brings a whole lot more than what you say he does... But anyways, this is getting a little (OK, alot) offtopic from the title of the thread.

I still think that hemsky would be better utilized on a line with horc and smyth.

I am trying to think of a player who I would have rather had in that situation tonight (3 seconds left, semi-breakaway), and I just can't right now. Hemsky earned his keep tonight for sure....

Oilerfan_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 02:09 AM
  #32
ClosetOilersFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,202
vCash: 500
Hemmer can definitely be clutch and his way of doing it is usually quite memorable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
hell I want to win to I don't care if we trap or not what I am refering to is how a guy like Shawn Horcoff can do no wrong yet hemsky does no right
I think way too many people here let their bias get in the way. Last time I checked, every single player (except for Ryan Smyth) has been torn apart in a thread or two.

ClosetOilersFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 02:13 AM
  #33
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Justin View Post
Hemmer can definitely be clutch and his way of doing it is usually quite memorable!



I think way too many people here let their bias get in the way. Last time I checked, every single player (except for Ryan Smyth) has been torn apart in a thread or two.

no hemmer has been hands down the most pointed at and Horcoff the least, every night people grasp at straws to detract from what he has done.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 03:53 AM
  #34
Danglefish
 
Danglefish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 157
vCash: 500
I find this weird, because just a season or two ago Horcoff was getting ***** on these boards for being nothing but a plug, and all of a sudden he has one good year and he can do nothing wrong, while Hemsky has a good year, leads our team in scoring, and gets ate out on every play he doesn't do something amazing with I think people just focus on him so much that when he does make a mistake everyone is there to call it, if people watched the Oilers to watch Horc specifically, I guarantee they would find lots wrong with his game, aside from his undeniable hard work.

Danglefish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 10:23 AM
  #35
t0mf00lery
Registered User
 
t0mf00lery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
yep like I have been saying for some time some people here should just go buy Flames jerseys because it is clear they want to watch plumbers rather than skill
Most of us would rather win than watch skill if we had to make the choice. Having the best of both worlds would obviously be number one though.

That said, many of us feel that no matter how many beautiful moves are made, ultimately the most important aspect is winning.

This is not a slight to Hemsky, just a sign of frustration after having lost too many games in which we should have won. All the skill in the world matters absolutely nothing if you do not win, imo.

t0mf00lery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 10:44 AM
  #36
cfrancis
Registered User
 
cfrancis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,305
vCash: 4880
Send a message via AIM to cfrancis
Although I love Hemmer, he's not clutch. Clutch would have been burying his shootout ontop of Zubov.

cfrancis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 10:54 AM
  #37
Jimmi Jenkins
Tastes like Chicken
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,169
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretzky View Post
Most of us would rather win than watch skill if we had to make the choice. Having the best of both worlds would obviously be number one though.

That said, many of us feel that no matter how many beautiful moves are made, ultimately the most important aspect is winning.

This is not a slight to Hemsky, just a sign of frustration after having lost too many games in which we should have won. All the skill in the world matters absolutely nothing if you do not win, imo.
Good point and I agree with you. However this, from the way I interpret it, says that Hemsky wasn't good enough and that's why the Oilers lost those games.

Ales Hemsky is a great player, he's the most talented player on the Oilers (and this is not close) and he does nothing but score huge goals in huge situation, and still it's never enough.

Don't ****ing drive this guy out of Edmonton, he's amazing.

Jimmi Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:00 AM
  #38
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,675
vCash: 500
One of the things that might be helpful to this thread is if "clutch' were defined a bit more in this context of use.

Otherwise the thread predictably becomes a yes he is, no he isn't, unending argument on something undefined and deteriorates from there.

For instance is the definition of a clutch player that he's primarily responsible for being in on the big point that results in a tie or win or is a clutch player producing, playing well, throughout the game?

In several games where Hemsky has been described as clutch, and applauded for the win several other players have played a bigger prior role in those games that allowed Hemsky to even be in the position to get that "clutch" point.

Last nights game is an interesting case study. Hemsky did not appear to have a particularly good game, was seperating himself from the puck regularly, although the whole line had difficulty retaining the puck. Understandable given Nedveds first night but still, the line with Hemsky in it was mostly unproductive but scored a goal WITH the help of Ryan Smyth(who I think should have been credited with the assist, I beleive he made stick contact with the puck to knock it over to Petr) in any case Ryan was the decoy that created the opening for Nedved to tap it in. Smyth drew attention, Nedved was free, and facing an open net.

In effect Smyth had 4 pts on the night and was responsible for the 5th goal!

Without Smyttys huge producing contribution THROUGHOUT the game the last seconds are inconsequential.

Which role is clutch?

I think its a fair question.


Last edited by Replacement: 01-05-2007 at 11:07 AM.
Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:08 AM
  #39
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfrancis View Post
Although I love Hemmer, he's not clutch. Clutch would have been burying his shootout ontop of Zubov.
yet another example of what I have been saying for two seasons now.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:11 AM
  #40
t0mf00lery
Registered User
 
t0mf00lery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Good point and I agree with you. However this, from the way I interpret it, says that Hemsky wasn't good enough and that's why the Oilers lost those games.

Ales Hemsky is a great player, he's the most talented player on the Oilers (and this is not close) and he does nothing but score huge goals in huge situation, and still it's never enough.

Don't ****ing drive this guy out of Edmonton, he's amazing.
It's not Hemsky who wasn't good enough. It's the whole team. I agree, Hemsky is fun to watch, he's immensely talented, and all of that. Drive him out of town? OK, let's be reasonable here, how am I doing that?

The issue I take with the point in this thread is calling a guy clutch when you still lose the game. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around that concept. That's like losing 6-5 and the guy on the losing team scores 5 goals. Is that clutch? Maybe, the definition has changed since when I was a kid?

t0mf00lery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:15 AM
  #41
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In several games where Hemsky has been described as clutch, and applauded for the win several other players have played a bigger prior role in those games that allowed Hemsky to even be in the position to get that "clutch" point.
Like who - against the red wings in the playoffs who contributed more ? against the ducks who contributed more ? against the canes in game one how did anyone contribute more (besides Pronger) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Last nights game is an interesting case study. Hemsky did not appear to have a particularly good game, was seperating himself from the puck regularly, although the whole line had difficulty retaining the puck. Understandable given Nedveds first night but still, the line with Hemsky in it was mostly unproductive but scored a goal WITH the help of Ryan Smyth(who I think should have been credited with the assist, I beleive he made stick contact with the puck to knock it over to Petr) in any case Ryan was the decoy that created the opening for Nedved to tap it in. Smyth drew attention, Nedved was free, and facing an open net.

In effect Smyth had 4 pts on the night and was responsible for the 5th goal!

Without Smyttys huge producing contribution THROUGHOUT the game the last seconds are inconsequential.

Which role is clutch?
Sure Smyth had a good game but did Smyth come through when it mattered ? no. Added to that you are giving Smyth too much credit on Nedved's goal. It was a 5 on three and Dallas executed the pully system decently well - guy on Sykora, Guy on Hemsky, guy on Smyth.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:15 AM
  #42
Jimmi Jenkins
Tastes like Chicken
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,169
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretzky View Post
It's not Hemsky who wasn't good enough. It's the whole team. I agree, Hemsky is fun to watch, he's immensely talented, and all of that. Drive him out of town? OK, let's be reasonable here, how am I doing that?

The issue I take with the point in this thread is calling a guy clutch when you still lose the game. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around that concept. That's like losing 6-5 and the guy on the losing team scores 5 goals. Is that clutch? Maybe, the definition has changed since when I was a kid?
I can because it was an NHL regular season Shootout loss, they still get a point. The only reasons they got that point is because Steffan is a moron and Hemsky scored a great goal with 2 secs left.

I'll admit he needs to be more clutch to score in the shootout, but with his big goal in that big situation, there isn't a shootout.

Jimmi Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:28 AM
  #43
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
The issue I take with the point in this thread is calling a guy clutch when you still lose the game.
What sort of nonsense is this? The "definition" changed because the guy makes a last second play to give his team a chance to win the game? Michael Jordan hit two free throws with no time left on the clock to send a playoff game against the Boston Celtics into overtime as a second year pro. They didn't win the game, but I don't know anyone that would describe his free throws as anything but clutch.

Clutch is making big plays at big times. Clutch players don't always come through and get you the win, but they do tend to make big plays with the game on the line.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:32 AM
  #44
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Like who - against the red wings in the playoffs who contributed more ? against the ducks who contributed more ? against the canes in game one how did anyone contribute more (besides Pronger) ?
But you are selecting a sample to try to prove your point. I could select a sample in which Stoll, Smyth, Pisani, Pronger, hell, even Samsonov, were the clutch player. when we start selecting the sample to demonstrate results sample size distortion is produced and especially when the sample if specifically selected for effect.

Heres the overall playoff pts if you want to consider that.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app



Quote:
Sure Smyth had a good game but did Smyth come through when it mattered ? no.
Smyth had I thought a good assist on the tieing goal. Not sure what you mean In anycase is that not exactly the type of comment that would rile you if it were lobbed at Hemsky?

Replacement is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:33 AM
  #45
t0mf00lery
Registered User
 
t0mf00lery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
I can because it was an NHL regular season Shootout loss, they still get a point. The only reasons they got that point is because Steffan is a moron and Hemsky scored a great goal with 2 secs left.

I'll admit he needs to be more clutch to score in the shootout, but with his big goal in that big situation, there isn't a shootout.
Ok, maybe with the advent of the Shootout (read no ties) it changes the concept of what a clutch goal is? Maybe, you can score a clutch goal and still lose in the regular season. Just seems very weird to me though.

t0mf00lery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:35 AM
  #46
t0mf00lery
Registered User
 
t0mf00lery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Barrie, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,856
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
What sort of nonsense is this? The "definition" changed because the guy makes a last second play to give his team a chance to win the game? Michael Jordan hit two free throws with no time left on the clock to send a playoff game against the Boston Celtics into overtime as a second year pro. They didn't win the game, but I don't know anyone that would describe his free throws as anything but clutch.

Clutch is making big plays at big times. Clutch players don't always come through and get you the win, but they do tend to make big plays with the game on the line.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

t0mf00lery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:37 AM
  #47
oil slick
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

Without Smyttys huge producing contribution THROUGHOUT the game the last seconds are inconsequential.

Which role is clutch?

I think its a fair question.

How is producing throughout the game clutch? Wouldn't all the clutch players just be all the best players? That's fine I guess, but then won't you need to come up with a word to describe the player that produces huge plays at times like last night with 2 secs left? Will the word clutch work?

oil slick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:41 AM
  #48
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretzky View Post
Ok, maybe with the advent of the Shootout (read no ties) it changes the concept of what a clutch goal is? Maybe, you can score a clutch goal and still lose in the regular season. Just seems very weird to me though.
No, it's clutch because it was a big goal that his team needed.


If he were to score a goal to tie the game up in the playoffs with 2 seconds left on a nice deke like he did against Turco, it'd be a clutch play.

As long as I have watched sports and heard this term "clutch" it's been about making big plays for your team at the biggest time. Even if someone else ends up scoring for your team and winning in overtime, the opportunity would never have presented itself if the game wasn't tied with mere seconds remaining in the game.

Players that are typically considered "clutch players" are known to make these big plays at the end of the game when time is running out. A kicker that is known for kicking the 50 yard field goal, whether it be to win or to tie, is still a clutch kicker. If he doesn't make the play, the team loses, guaranteed. It's about playing well when under pressure. If Hemsky doesn't score that goal, we lose. No chance for winning. None whatsoever. Because he scored it, the Oilers get another chance at winning the game.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:42 AM
  #49
oil slick
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretzky View Post
The issue I take with the point in this thread is calling a guy clutch when you still lose the game. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around that concept. That's like losing 6-5 and the guy on the losing team scores 5 goals. Is that clutch? Maybe, the definition has changed since when I was a kid?
a) a point is a point.
b) when I was a kid clutch meant coming up with the big play at key times. How is sending the game to ot with 2 secs left - giving your team a good chance to win, and coming up with a key point in a playoff race that will almost certainly be decided by a handful of points not clutch?

oil slick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-05-2007, 11:44 AM
  #50
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
But you are selecting a sample to try to prove your point. I could select a sample in which Stoll, Smyth, Pisani, Pronger, hell, even Samsonov, were the clutch player. when we start selecting the sample to demonstrate results sample size distortion is produced and especially when the sample if specifically selected for effect.

Heres the overall playoff pts if you want to consider that.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app
what the hell do stats have to do with anything look at the actual goals and when they happen - Hemsky with 31 seconds left against the Ducks when we need a win. What does he do he scorers. Hemsky with 1 minute left to knock out the Wings. With 2 seconds left down by one Hemsky scores to get us a point. Added if you want stats how about the stat that of Hemskys goals 21% of them were game winning, evry few players can say the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Smyth had I thought a good assist on the tieing goal. Not sure what you mean In anycase is that not exactly the type of comment that would rile you if it were lobbed at Hemsky?
did Smyth score when it mattered ? no he did not

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.